i know i speak this on TL and there stands many Animosity toward these people but nowadays i watch sc2... everyone seems so bland and cliche. when i watch casters these days they give me the feeling they are automaton. pro personality has diminish i think in part due to certain western culture element, but let us not go there that is separate discussion.
some of you may say "they were bad because they were bad manner" but for most, especially combatex/deezer, this was banter, and pros often reciprocated it:
here we see bm from both huk and idra toward combatex for example. but it was all banter. he even say gg at the very end. also the showmatch between combatex and deezer was terrific. i know this is popular opinion but i do not think there has been thread at least recent that discusses it? what do you guys think? overall i liked all of these people. only ones like avilo were cringe and i didnt like but otherwise i miss them. sorry for bad english. it's late here.
I enjoy the polite and professional StarCraft II community. There’s enough unnecessary drama in other esports. People respecting each other is one of the StarCraft II community’s greatest strengths in my opinion.
On November 10 2021 08:43 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: I enjoy the polite and professional StarCraft II community. There’s enough unnecessary drama in other esports. People respecting each other is one of the StarCraft II community’s greatest strengths in my opinion.
I think this is exactly OPs point though, the fact that you dont like it creates controversy and people talking about the players. If the banter is fake I think it can be kinda corny but when you get players who people "love to hate" like idra, it gets fans more invested in their matches.
Not sure what you mean by "these days", but a lot of the casters have been casting since day 1. And say what you want about guys like Tastosis, but it's hard to say they're not entertaining. As far as the players, I agree there could be more personality-driven content, but if you want that I suggest watching GSL. Their production includes a lot of funny interviews in which players are basically encouraged to make fun of each other, games like subjecting players to a zapping lie detector, etc. The GSL group nominations can similarly be entertaining if you want to see inter-player dynamics (watching Zest and Special negotiate group placements for a night out for dinner recently was funny). The IdrA-style BM I don't find to be entertaining, but I guess if players were to BM in game a bit more that could be fun. You see it in ladder games, but I don't blame players for wanting to take tournament games seriously and focus on their play. Byun and Maru recently played a tourney finals in which they were BM the whole time, at one point Maru paused the game and typed Byun's Twitch link into the chat and told viewers to go subscribe. The Olimoleague 2v2 stuff is also pretty funny and tends to bring out more personality and weird builds. If what you really want is for players to be childish, homophobic, aggressive, toxic, and straight up rude like some were in the past, then I guess I'm glad you're in the minority...but I'm sure you can get your fix on the ladder.
On November 10 2021 08:43 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: I enjoy the polite and professional StarCraft II community. There’s enough unnecessary drama in other esports. People respecting each other is one of the StarCraft II community’s greatest strengths in my opinion.
guess what my friend, people will get bored, drama is a constant. always expect. these people being gone simply makes people channel it into other things
On November 10 2021 09:47 rwala wrote: Not sure what you mean by "these days", but a lot of the casters have been casting since day 1. The IdrA-style BM I don't find to be entertaining, but I guess if players were to BM in game a bit more that could be fun.
it is reason artosis stream is so popular. it is entertaining. also many of these casters are new for sure. tastosis is great. i will not name names of the newer casters as this is not the point but most of them have not been there since end of WoL definitely.
Trance music wouldn’t be better if there were more controversial artists producing music. It’s an extremely successful genre that is built on sharing experiences, finding happiness, and having a good time. That sums up my attitude towards Starcraft too. I much prefer a positive and supportive community to a bitter one like what existed during the SC1 to SC2 transition.
sc2 needs drama like anyother sport or like WWA or MMA or whatever, look at the drama that is built in Formula 1 with netflix Formula 1: Drive to Survive series, those BM players op mention were the reason i usually kept watching Sc2 more than now, because they could make people play better or play worst, there is not reason to ban players just because the are bm from time to time... just look at it as a way to make the Esport bigger... not everybody has to be a cinderella type of personality.
Given how close knit the community is nowadays (partly due to getting smaller as its an older game now), someone who is BM might ostracize themselves in the community, so the risk is now greater
Maybe get a few laughs or attention in the short term, but not sustainable if they don't want to make things awkward with the rest of the community (whether that's other pros, casters, tournament organizers, etc.)
I don't agree, drama is one thing but immature cheaters is very different. As for the Idra/ Artosis stream argument, a lot of the people watching those streams are just there to troll and watch them fail, that can't be healthy for both the streamer or the scene. It does draw more eyes, but that's not the type of attention you'd want if you're intending on having a professional scene like ESL/ASL.
I liked this when I was younger, but I have absolutely no interest anymore. Point is understood, and target audience is probably younger (teens / early 20's).
I think there can be reasonably fine lines between enjoyable pantomime villainy and toxic nonsense.
In general I think a few pantomime villains would be fun, I was always quite partial to Idra but genuinely, especially hearing him come back for the odd chat I don’t think SC competition was good for the guy.
Artosis’ stream behaviour is absolutely hilarious to me, but crucially only with the contrast to how he is the rest of the time, the duality of man. If he was actually like that all the time it would be awful.
Largely I like the wider scene, this site especially because it’s not particularly toxic. If we had a bunch of prominent figures behaving like idiots I think you’d see that emulated more and more down the chain, which would suck, at least for me.
Perhaps old age has got to me but I really don’t have the energy for that these days.
I don't think it was 'funny banter'. A lot of it was very toxic behavior.
Funny banter should be obvious. And I agree: a bit of banter could be fun. Reynor, for example, does, imo, a lot of banter, when he commentates. That's fun.
On November 10 2021 18:25 AdrianHealeyy wrote: Reynor, for example, does, imo, a lot of banter, when he commentates. That's fun.
I also remember Dark teasing Reynor with "Some people you are just not meant to beat". That certainly added to the excitement of their match IEM Katowice 2021 quarterfinals match.
On November 10 2021 12:00 BonitiilloO wrote: sc2 needs drama like anyother sport or like WWA or MMA or whatever, look at the drama that is built in Formula 1 with netflix Formula 1: Drive to Survive series, those BM players op mention were the reason i usually kept watching Sc2 more than now, because they could make people play better or play worst, there is not reason to ban players just because the are bm from time to time... just look at it as a way to make the Esport bigger... not everybody has to be a cinderella type of personality.
The issue with the analogy to WWA or MMA is that in these "sports" the drama is specifically orchestrated by the event producers and agreed to by the players. Often the outcome is pre-determined, and the BM is fake (the entire player personalities are often made up). So essentially it's like the sports equivalent of a soap opera. I get if that's what some people want, but a lot of us are more interested in high quality production and gameplay.
My issue with SC2 has more to do with some fundamentals of the way the game is designed that allow for build-order wins and make comebacks nearly impossible when there's significant early game economic damage on one side. There's a lot of rock-paper-scissors going on to the point where pros themselves are describing some of their match-ups as coin flips. More generally, because the map and unit features haven't evolved much in many years, the universe of strategies and tactics has more or less been mapped out such that you *rarely* see meaningfully novel approaches to the game any more (e.g. Maru going battle mech against Stats in 2019). SC2 is still fun to watch, but the moments in which you see surprising, interesting, or novel gameplay approaches seem to be dwindling. I think for a lot of us turning it into a soap opera with a bunch of BM drama isn't really the answer.
WombaT said it well - there is a difference between toxic nonsense and pantomime villainy.
Let's see this clever banter then shall we -
Gee, how hilarious, someone gunning for the most times to type "raped" in an SCII match. And then some homophobic jokes. Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me.
This might be hilarious to you, but it's insanely hurtful to many people and therefore has been justifiably ostracized from the community.
I would encourage you to cultivate a better sense of humour.
I think it depends on what people are actually looking for here. By almost any possible metric there is way more "off-script" behavior, banter, player rivalries, etc, than there were in the early days of SC2, including top players and casters trash-talking, balance whining after losing, making fun of each other, calling each other out specifically, etc. The biggest transformation here has been in the Korean scene, where the KESPA script has been almost totally replaced by much more humorous, outgoing, dramatic narrative-building. Still, it's true that there's way less DRAMA than there used to be, but it's mostly just bc:
(1) People just take it all less seriously, since SC2 is now the wizened granddaddy of ESPORTS instead of the trailblazer and so there's not the same intense pressure to forge a path and be THE Professional ESPORT with a capital P. I can't imagine some of Idra's very basic balance whining or early ggs getting the attention now that they did then. But back then there was a very strong scene-wide conflict btw preexisting male internet culture and the desire to build a mainstream ESPORT and people were trying to craft and enforce new, scene-wide professional norms in real time and there was a lot of comparison anxiety over SC2's design, balance, and cultural position which made idra and ppl like him a flashpoint for Very Serious Discussions. I can't say I miss them.
(2) It's an old and smaller scene where there's less new blood and many players and casters have been around for a long time, and so at this point they pretty much all know each other and are friends. Which gives any trash-talking/balance-whining that exists a very different feel since it's very obviously between close friends or at least btw people who have probably hung out and had beers together on more than one occasion.
Imo I vastly prefer the more relaxed, friendly dynamic of modern SC2 to either the insecure performance-anxiety professionalism or DRAMA with a capital D of the early years. But most of what people are actually missing here is just the intensity and drama of SC2 as a rising trailblazer ESPORT, not the innate "excitement" of a top player saying he lost because imba.
While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
I was a fan of CombatEX. His videos were actually pretty informative and he did play with a passion and he seemed to have a ton of fun.
With Idra he almost seemed miserable while playing. While his knowledge of the game and fundamentals were good, I did not quite enjoy watching him as much.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
Please do not project your personal shortcomings onto the rest of society.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
On November 10 2021 23:30 Arghmyliver wrote: WombaT said it well - there is a difference between toxic nonsense and pantomime villainy.
Let's see this clever banter then shall we -
Gee, how hilarious, someone gunning for the most times to type "raped" in an SCII match. And then some homophobic jokes. Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me.
This might be hilarious to you, but it's insanely hurtful to many people and therefore has been justifiably ostracized from the community.
I would encourage you to cultivate a better sense of humour.
edit: an SCII match
It just, sucks.
Most people don’t know how to be edgy, and tread that line where they’re amusingly transgressive, the vast, vast majority either don’t have the chops or are too lazy to manage it. I myself can really only do it amongst good friends where I have a gauge of their sensibilities
So what you get is boring, boring, boring abusive invective, spammed ad nauseam and if you’re unimpressed it’s because you’re fragile, or offended, or salty or whatever.
It’s just fucking boring, and I’m so thoroughly sick of it. I’m 32 now and I’ve been playing games online in some capacity since I was 6/7 with OG Diablo.
Aside from being offensive and, the offensiveness 9/10 times being applied to marginalised groups in the space too, which I also 100% agree with you on. Why I like TL, the community in general and the moderation team when required really do make it a nice, pleasant space to inhabit.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
That is a sad and way to generalized view. Is this projection from someone who sees himself as far from rage normally? I know a lot of people who would never be small rage kids. Among my friends I only know of 1 that would turn to rage from increasing frustration, and he hates it. He is trying to better himself and has done so since before puberty hit. There are other ways of coping than rage. The easiest way is to quit, but that isn't the way for growth. A better and harder way is to change your expectations. Since frustration stems from thinking that something that should be simply isn't. "I should improve faster" -> "I need to change my practice strategy or practice for a longer period of time". Even harder to learn how to do is accepting how things are, which results in no frustration at all.
There are a lot more ways to handle frustration.
Back to the OP's topic: I genuinely dislike the BM and banter that isn't in jest. I confront people that are doing it almost every time I encounter it. Rage is an even less liked thing. I face it with low affection and try to understand where the rage is coming from to help them defeat their rage.
People being mean and people raging are my biggest sources of frustration. You are allowed to be upset, but don't take it out on people that has got nothing to do with it. As a professional SC2 player your job is entertaining, they are making money off of people watching. If they are mean and raging on stream, they are letting the innocent viewers take part. That is wrong, imo.
i do not understand issue either way. all of you who say you do not like him, just do not pay attention to them. you dont like idra? simply do not watch his stream, right? only time it may be slightly annoy to you is if someones like combatex or deezer streamsnipe a stream you are watch. but if huk and idra dont really mind them then i think slightly silly for you to dislike it so much. i also think combat did not stream cheat, only snipe, but i digress. regardless we have guru today, i like watching his stream, this is funny: https://www.twitch.tv/guruht/clip/HedonisticRichPorcupinePeanutButterJellyTime?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time like he is not stream cheat but stream snipe only.
but humor is subjective, cannot say i am less mature, i cannot choose what i find funny, like what Joker said (haha)
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
That is a sad and way to generalized view. Is this projection from someone who sees himself as far from rage normally? I know a lot of people who would never be small rage kids. Among my friends I only know of 1 that would turn to rage from increasing frustration, and he hates it. He is trying to better himself and has done so since before puberty hit. There are other ways of coping than rage. The easiest way is to quit, but that isn't the way for growth. A better and harder way is to change your expectations. Since frustration stems from thinking that something that should be simply isn't. "I should improve faster" -> "I need to change my practice strategy or practice for a longer period of time". Even harder to learn how to do is accepting how things are, which results in no frustration at all.
There are a lot more ways to handle frustration.
Back to the OP's topic: I genuinely dislike the BM and banter that isn't in jest. I confront people that are doing it almost every time I encounter it. Rage is an even less liked thing. I face it with low affection and try to understand where the rage is coming from to help them defeat their rage.
People being mean and people raging are my biggest sources of frustration. You are allowed to be upset, but don't take it out on people that has got nothing to do with it. As a professional SC2 player your job is entertaining, they are making money off of people watching. If they are mean and raging on stream, they are letting the innocent viewers take part. That is wrong, imo.
my favorite thing in starcraft is when someone is losing and they say "i hope your family gets fucking cancer" or something like this. it's hilarious, how can i be offended? it's not personal at all and it is funny how mad i made them just by winning :D it is just words and no one force you to watch.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
That is a sad and way to generalized view. Is this projection from someone who sees himself as far from rage normally? I know a lot of people who would never be small rage kids. Among my friends I only know of 1 that would turn to rage from increasing frustration, and he hates it. He is trying to better himself and has done so since before puberty hit. There are other ways of coping than rage. The easiest way is to quit, but that isn't the way for growth. A better and harder way is to change your expectations. Since frustration stems from thinking that something that should be simply isn't. "I should improve faster" -> "I need to change my practice strategy or practice for a longer period of time". Even harder to learn how to do is accepting how things are, which results in no frustration at all.
There are a lot more ways to handle frustration.
Back to the OP's topic: I genuinely dislike the BM and banter that isn't in jest. I confront people that are doing it almost every time I encounter it. Rage is an even less liked thing. I face it with low affection and try to understand where the rage is coming from to help them defeat their rage.
People being mean and people raging are my biggest sources of frustration. You are allowed to be upset, but don't take it out on people that has got nothing to do with it. As a professional SC2 player your job is entertaining, they are making money off of people watching. If they are mean and raging on stream, they are letting the innocent viewers take part. That is wrong, imo.
my favorite thing in starcraft is when someone is losing and they say "i hope your family gets fucking cancer" or something like this. it's hilarious, how can i be offended? it's not personal at all and it is funny how mad i made them just by winning :D it is just words and no one force you to watch.
Look at boxing, it's a complete joke, they went with the 'hey if it draws eyes and has drama it's good' approach. Great now we've got Conor McGregor fighting Floyd Mayweather for some reason, and about 18 Pauls who are Youtube personalities on big boxing bills.
Yeah it draws eyes but just, basically ruins the actual integrity of the sport and the appeal for actual fans for the sake of cheap novelty views.
That's what you get when generating 'hype' is what's important, and it fucking sucks, keep it out of my Starcraft.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
No, I've played with some fucking idiot who thinks spouting bile is acceptable and people who don't want to be bothered with it are participating in 'cancel' culture', or are sensitive snowflakes or w/e
It sucks, attempts to justify it suck, it makes, largely the entire experience of playing games worse.
Literally people should just fucking grow up and behave with some decorum, their expectations of society sucking up to their own inadequacies is the problem, not 'cancel culture' or 'PC' or whatever the fuck the kids are moaning about these days.
Behave like a fucking adult, maybe let your frustrations occasionally get the better of you sure, nobody's perfect but absolutely nothing is gained from people sauntering around saying they hope people die of cancer.
It's just shit, people should stop doing it, or if they want to continue doing it be negatively judged by everyone else for doing it
On November 11 2021 07:53 Die4Ever wrote: https://youtu.be/ApENU9PgwxU damn this video still gracks me up, Idra's face at 0:43
Still an amazing clip to this day.
Despite my prior rantings on BM, I did enjoy Idra a lot.
He did genuinely seem a pretty complex character and he contributed to the scene positively in other ways. I can’t even remember the event but some of my favourite casting ever was Idra as the analysis guy, and it was genuinely top-notch stuff. His State of the Game contributions were many, and heartfelt and genuine even if some may have disagreed.
Of casters who were never really in regular rotation Idra and Grubby were just amazing, and totally different characters.
Meeting the guy at Dreamhack 2011 he was an absolute consummate gent, indulging in some good natured, incredibly dry ribbing of Ret who was our other companion.
If the level of villainy would be constrained to a ‘nice skill toi have’ or ‘fuck off’ in response to ‘did you know it was halluc?’ I’m all for a bit of villainy
And honestly Huk rubbing it in that his little gambit had worked in game was as BM as much of what Idra did
WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
On November 11 2021 09:15 confusedzerg wrote: WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
To a point, there’s a reason McGregor went from a plucky cocky upstart, largely loved in his native land to a good chunk of us wanting him to lose.
Stupid BM adds nothing to the gaming experience. Many of us are older folks now and, frankly want to relax within a competitive hobby framework.
To stress, it adds nothing, the onus is on those who think BM and toxic behaviour are great to, well prove it. What’s the argument beyond ‘stop being sensitive?’ What fun aside from beating a BM player does toxic behaviour bring to the community?
To stress, massively, I’m not personally offended, although I think other groups of people would be, given certain standard topics such folks go ro.
It doesn’t add anything other than carte blanche for men/woman children to behave accordingly
Grow up, play the game, treat defeat and victory with equal grace and learn something. If you’re frustrated hell engage in some soft, witty BM if you want
If people don’t want to do that and think it’s fun calling every opponent a faggot well, that’s on them and I would consider that a bad life choice
Yeah idk, witty banter is fine in a non-competitive environment like ladder for me, but this doesn't really belong into a pro-game and it needs to be witty and non-toxic for me to enjoy.
Like HuK rubbing in that he won with illusions was fine for me, because it's essentially half about the game and half about IdrA's temper. To boot these two clearly knew each other beforehand.
But in the first video I just thought all the time that Combat first looked like an idiot when he kept repeating "you're shit" and then like an ass when he basically said that IdrA is a looser because he choose a career path he didn't become extremely successful in. Like it didn't look tongue in cheek at all to me, even if it was meant tongue in cheek there was no way for IdrA to tell and I fail to see how it'd be funny.
I'd much rather people add personality in interviews than in ingame chat, the boss-toss f.e. was very beloved and I always took his arrogance as playful. If anything I'm missing that kind of joking personality in interviews rather than BM and villains.
But in the first video I just thought all the time that Combat first looked like an idiot when he kept repeating "you're shit" and then like an ass when he basically said that IdrA is a looser because he choose a career path he didn't become extremely successful in. Like it didn't look tongue in cheek at all to me, even if it was meant tongue in cheek there was no way for IdrA to tell and I fail to see how it'd be funny.
he just dissed the comeback back "yeah it would be a shame if your life was in this" and "yeah man i got it rough, it sucks to be me". this is how it is and how it was up until ~2010 or so. so it was overall funny because of idras witty comebacks. idra clearly didnt give a shit about combatexs opinion (why would he)
I really enjoy rivalry, mild trash talk, and oversized egos in e-sports, and I do think it helps grow community participation. I used to relish matches between TL and EG for example, and loved it when the Boss Toss MC would say ridiculous things. It helped to tell a story and give people something to cheer for or against. There are very few players like that left - Dark and Reynor come to mind a little bit, and PartinG on his stream but not so much in public tournaments. Personally, I don't want SC2 to be a completely sterile place set aside for sophisticated adults only. Some drama and swagger helps spice things up and brings in new viewers (and potential players) to the scene and I don't want to be the old guy telling the young'ins to behave and get off my lawn. I'd encourage some rebelliousness in anyone who wants to go for that sort of thing
That said, I never enjoyed any sort of overly personal or vulgar insults, or drama that actually damaged the integrity of the game (like the NaNiwa probe rush or the match fixing scandals). The ladder was also a cesspit of people who would just constantly say horrible things to each other, which is why I haven't put serious time into ladder since WoL - not sure if that's still the case. IdrA in particular was a tough case for me. He obviously cared a lot about the game and brought in the views (he was a participant in some of the most memorable moments of early SC2), and his personal friends said he was a really nice/smart guy behind the scenes. Unfortunately, the way he lashed out at people sometimes was pretty uncomfortable and made me not want to watch.
On November 11 2021 12:40 Kitai wrote: I really enjoy rivalry, mild trash talk, and oversized egos in e-sports, and I do think it helps grow community participation. I used to relish matches between TL and EG for example, and loved it when the Boss Toss MC would say ridiculous things. It helped to tell a story and give people something to cheer for or against. There are very few players like that left - Dark and Reynor come to mind a little bit, and PartinG on his stream but not so much in public tournaments. Personally, I don't want SC2 to be a completely sterile place set aside for sophisticated adults only. Some drama and swagger helps spice things up and brings in new viewers (and potential players) to the scene and I don't want to be the old guy telling the young'ins to behave and get off my lawn. I'd encourage some rebelliousness in anyone who wants to go for that sort of thing
That said, I never enjoyed any sort of overly personal or vulgar insults, or drama that actually damaged the integrity of the game (like the NaNiwa probe rush or the match fixing scandals). The ladder was also a cesspit of people who would just constantly say horrible things to each other, which is why I haven't put serious time into ladder since WoL - not sure if that's still the case. IdrA in particular was a tough case for me. He obviously cared a lot about the game and brought in the views (he was a participant in some of the most memorable moments of early SC2), and his personal friends said he was a really nice/smart guy behind the scenes. Unfortunately, the way he lashed out at people sometimes was pretty uncomfortable and made me not want to watch.
see this is what i dont understand. you stop playing the game because some people said mean things to you on ladder? i would say not even 10% of my games result in bm but even when they do i just cant help but laugh. what goes through your mind when you read "fuck you die asshole" after a game? you are not first person i have hear say this.
On November 11 2021 09:15 confusedzerg wrote: WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
Yes, you are immature for enjoying two man-babies screaming toxic filth at each other. Pantomime villainy and clever insults prior to a UFC fight is fine. Racist, homophobic, sexist garbage is not. And while yes, context is important, imagine the following. "I'm not a racist, I only use the n-word around white people." Does that sound like a statement you want to get behind? Different people have different senses of humor, it's true. It is not inappropriate to extrapolate to some degree based on what people find funny. If someone finds racism, homophobia, sexism, targeted harassment to be funny, it may reveal something about their personality. The majority of the community has thankfully decided that these people do not have a place here.
On November 11 2021 12:40 Kitai wrote: I really enjoy rivalry, mild trash talk, and oversized egos in e-sports, and I do think it helps grow community participation. I used to relish matches between TL and EG for example, and loved it when the Boss Toss MC would say ridiculous things. It helped to tell a story and give people something to cheer for or against. There are very few players like that left - Dark and Reynor come to mind a little bit, and PartinG on his stream but not so much in public tournaments. Personally, I don't want SC2 to be a completely sterile place set aside for sophisticated adults only. Some drama and swagger helps spice things up and brings in new viewers (and potential players) to the scene and I don't want to be the old guy telling the young'ins to behave and get off my lawn. I'd encourage some rebelliousness in anyone who wants to go for that sort of thing
That said, I never enjoyed any sort of overly personal or vulgar insults, or drama that actually damaged the integrity of the game (like the NaNiwa probe rush or the match fixing scandals). The ladder was also a cesspit of people who would just constantly say horrible things to each other, which is why I haven't put serious time into ladder since WoL - not sure if that's still the case. IdrA in particular was a tough case for me. He obviously cared a lot about the game and brought in the views (he was a participant in some of the most memorable moments of early SC2), and his personal friends said he was a really nice/smart guy behind the scenes. Unfortunately, the way he lashed out at people sometimes was pretty uncomfortable and made me not want to watch.
see this is what i dont understand. you stop playing the game because some people said mean things to you on ladder? i would say not even 10% of my games result in bm but even when they do i just cant help but laugh. what goes through your mind when you read "fuck you die asshole" after a game? you are not first person i have hear say this.
Like I said, idk how it is now, but players in WoL would go far beyond a simple "fuck you die asshole" on a regular basis, both during and after a game. I can't help but feel that their behavior was bolstered by certain pros in the spotlight at the time doing similar things. Also, as someone who was pretty depressed at the time, those sorts of things hit harder than they would a normal person. I'm in a pretty good spot now so I think I could handle it better, but I haven't gone back because the general emotion I still feel from those days is ladder=bad.
I personally think people take words way too seriously. I like trash talk and bm and I think it's fun. On the other hand, we have a lot of serious issues coming to a head in society (racism, homophobia, etc). People have a legitimate reason to be offended by that stuff, then other people see people being offended and think "I can be offended by whatever I want, too."
If you're a trash-talker, leave racism and homophobia out of it. If you're upset about generic trash talk and use words like "toxic" and "filth" to describe basic bm, probably grow up and take yourself less seriously. I can't stand people who can't have a laugh at their own expense.
Conor's talk about Khabib's family/religion etc definitely crossed the line, but it made it that much more enjoyable to watch Khabib smash him thru the floor. Did that make it ok for Conor to do, from the "business" perspective? Probably not. It's a complex issue and I don't have a great answer.
On November 11 2021 09:15 confusedzerg wrote: WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
Yes, you are immature for enjoying two man-babies screaming toxic filth at each other. Pantomime villainy and clever insults prior to a UFC fight is fine. Racist, homophobic, sexist garbage is not. And while yes, context is important, imagine the following. "I'm not a racist, I only use the n-word around white people." Does that sound like a statement you want to get behind? Different people have different senses of humor, it's true. It is not inappropriate to extrapolate to some degree based on what people find funny. If someone finds racism, homophobia, sexism, targeted harassment to be funny, it may reveal something about their personality. The majority of the community has thankfully decided that these people do not have a place here.
who is talking about "n-word" (lol)? you are using one thing that westerners think is the worst thing to say ever against me. to a westerner there is nothing worse than saying "n-word" even to the extent that we cannot even say it when discussing it. so you are making it much bigger issue than it is, i think only person who said "n-word" was -orb- and he got banned right away? so what are you talking about or are you clutching at straws here?
you are not being fair, and then to top it off you call me immature, and then further bring racism into this as if combat/idra/deezer called people "n-word". then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened? secondly target harassment, can you give a time of when this was done? something where simply ignoring (or even blocking) person does not solve this issue?
so your opinion is not one of logic but pure emotion and i dont condone any argument like this i am sorry but i will not reply unless we can use logic and rational.
On November 11 2021 09:15 confusedzerg wrote: WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
Yes, you are immature for enjoying two man-babies screaming toxic filth at each other. Pantomime villainy and clever insults prior to a UFC fight is fine. Racist, homophobic, sexist garbage is not. And while yes, context is important, imagine the following. "I'm not a racist, I only use the n-word around white people." Does that sound like a statement you want to get behind? Different people have different senses of humor, it's true. It is not inappropriate to extrapolate to some degree based on what people find funny. If someone finds racism, homophobia, sexism, targeted harassment to be funny, it may reveal something about their personality. The majority of the community has thankfully decided that these people do not have a place here.
who is talking about "n-word" (lol)? you are using one thing that westerners think is the worst thing to say ever against me. to a westerner there is nothing worse than saying "n-word" even to the extent that we cannot even say it when discussing it. so you are making it much bigger issue than it is, i think only person who said "n-word" was -orb- and he got banned right away? so what are you talking about or are you clutching at straws here?
you are not being fair, and then to top it off you call me immature, and then further bring racism into this as if combat/idra/deezer called people "n-word". then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened? secondly target harassment, can you give a time of when this was done? something where simply ignoring (or even blocking) person does not solve this issue?
so your opinion is not one of logic but pure emotion and i dont condone any argument like this i am sorry but i will not reply unless we can use logic and rational.
You are acting immature. I don't think you fully comprehend what you are saying in this post, let alone the point I was attempting to convey in mine.
Do you understand that you could be sexist even if you lived on an island of only men?
Do you understand that you can be discriminatory even outside of the presence of those individuals you are marginalizing?
Until you grasp these two things, I agree, you are not equipped to have this conversation.
yes, and anyone can be racist/sexist/homophobic/islamophobic/transphobic/whatever without necessarily engaging in banter in a video game so i fail to see your point. we are not talking about player who say n-word as you so put. i think bringing this into the discussion with no real purpose doesnt do anything besides put the burden of the buzzwords on me which is cheap shot. it is emotional appeal.
Do you understand that you could be sexist even if you lived on an island of only men?
Do you understand that you can be discriminatory even outside of the presence of those individuals you are marginalizing?
this has no relevance because if players dont show that they are racist then it is pointless to assume they are racist, we must say we dont know if they are racist or not. we are talking about video game banter, you bringing this other shit in is weird.
Look dude. Here's the bottom line. Banter is fine and encouraged. Talking about how many other players you've "raped," calling other players "faggots" (or any other kind of slur for that matter), asking how much "butt sex" the other players have is not. Your claims that "everyone in SC2 is the same sex" or "it's fine to call someone a faggot as long as they aren't LGBTQ" are not only patently and demonstrably false, they are hurtful, insensitive and symptomatic of a deep-seeded bigotry which you are trying to excuse under the thin veneer of "banter." It's possible something is being lost in translation here as it would seem that English is not your first language, but everything you've said so far has been an excuse for discriminatory behaviour.
Could there be more banter in SC2?
Sure, maybe, it's at least an argument that can be made. Unfortunately, the examples you chose to include in your OP of the kind of banter you want back in the scene are highly problematic.
Should there be more toxic, hateful speech in SC2?
Storylines are a great way to generate views and interest. Drama is just one way of doing so. SC2 was massive when Serral won Blizzcon. It was an organic and very hyped storyline. Watching a foreigner win vs the Korean gauntlet is enticing, it pulls viewers because it's never been done before, etc.
CSGO generates a ton of various storylines without the drama (besides of course team signing/trades). It's arguably the best and most popular esports to watch. The recent major is an example: Niko vs Simple, two guys who are incredble players, both looking for a major (especially Simple).
Drama definitely creates storylines and it makes people want to click in. The Deezer/Combat era was funny, it made people want to click on to see the next match or funny shit that was going to happen. But it definitely had run its course. It's cool and generates (in wrestling terms) "cheap heat" for a time, until the cheap heat dies and you need to find an actual storyline to propel interest. If both, or people like them, were to make a return to the scene, it would definitely generate some spark for a time, maybe a week? Maybe a month at most. But then people would get tired of it quickly unless one of them actually made a huge charge and won some big event to set themselves up as a huge villain superstar.
Cheap adolescent heat is good for a short stint, but after that you need more substance to hold interest.
If it's an event and one or both players want to engage in a little showmanship then great. Done well you'll become a fan favorite.
If it's online and we're strangers, then it's not appropriate. I would love for my daughters to play this game with me when they're a bit older and they most certainly are not the first girls (or children) to touch the game. If this game is for everyone (and I believe it is) then we should think about their experience too - not just through the eyes of a young man.
When you are talking with strangers online you have to be mindful of cultural differences, gender differences, age differences, mental health differences etc etc. If we don't know who our audience is, we should default to a mode of behavior that makes others want to have us around, then everyone wins. If you can't do that because you keep provoking people, don't be shocked when the rest of us who can manage it, want you gone.
On November 12 2021 05:35 confusedzerg wrote: okay, makes sense. but one question: where did i advocate for hate speech? or where did anyone else mention it beside you?
This may be a language issue, because you realize I was quoting you in the post correct?
many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever.
It doesn't matter who the person is, this doesn't have any place in civil society. You suggesting that hate speech is ok as long as it's not in the presence of those it marginalizes is both factually incorrect and in fact encouraging hate speech.
then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened?
Your question answers itself.
The examples in your OP of the "banter" you'd like to bring back to SCII include homophobic jokes, rape jokes and IdrA dropping "retarded" multiple times.
This is toxic and hateful speech.
To be honest I think this thread should be closed. I will not be participating anymore.
I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories: -Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one). -Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?) -Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that.
Because it happens, and if it didn't we probably wouldn't have this thread. Like if ppl raged over losses without throwing that stuff in, I think it would be a non-issue.
i had to do a double take and make sure this wasn't a thread necro.
yeah i didnt like idra back then but then i realized i was a mindless sheep in the woke mob. i participated in his cancellation and regret it. cancel culture has ruined everything. i find this thread refreshing.
On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote: I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories: -Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one). -Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?) -Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that.
Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups.
As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place
People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children.
On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote: I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories: -Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one). -Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?) -Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that.
Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups.
As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place
People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children.
That's why we have the ignore function. It's not yours nor gaming companies responsibility to educate people, eventually this will backfire as people play the games to have fun not to be educated.
Maybe some villain-ish types but lets not pretend these people were really honestly terrible. IdrA less so for the most part, he really learned how to reign in the worst of it. But CombatEX and Deezer were really not good at all.
Big difference between angry outbursts and what some of the old villains did. And that's considering context. Remember that 10 years ago what was seen as egregious insult was very different and its shifter (I think for the better) to being less ok in terms of targeting race, gender, sexuality, etc.
There's a difference between being rough around the edges and maybe a little mean, or pompous and being a bad person who acts like trash.
Not everyone can be care bears and rainbows, and maybe some of the edge is missing that makes for drama and story, but I'd rather lose an edge that was racist/homophobic/intentionally antagonizing and harmful than keep it.
On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote: I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories: -Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one). -Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?) -Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that.
Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups.
As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place
People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children.
That's why we have the ignore function. It's not yours nor gaming companies responsibility to educate people, eventually this will backfire as people play the games to have fun not to be educated.
I don’t want to use an ignore function, I may as well be playing against bots at that stage.
I don’t think people need educated either, they know they’re being pricks and don’t control themselves because there’s no consequence.
Now we’re a bit out of the worst of the pandemic and playing pool is a thing again I’ve been enjoying playing with my buddies, and hey occasionally tables will scope each other out and propose playing each other.
And hey that’s fun, there’s some jokey banter, s’all good. If I started playing with the strangers next door and they started calling me a faggot after every shot well, that’s considerably less fun and you know fuck it me and my mates will go back to playing amongst ourselves.
But you know what that doesn’t happen, because people can control themselves in a social setting.
You said it yourself, people play games to have fun. It’s not particularly fun to engage with angry children all the time.
To, absolutely 100% I tolerate, and indeed quite enjoy a bit of edge, some banter with some wit to it, I feel it makes it more socially engaging.
But for some reason the onus is somehow on me for not enjoying people spamming insults all game, rather than people who can’t control themselves and do the spamming.
It’s less an issue for me in Starcraft, I think largely the community is pretty cool. Solo-queuing in team games, no it’s not fun for me, even if I’m playing OK I’m getting screamed at by barely intelligible humans for a whole game, really quite frequently.
So I don’t play a whole bunch of games i mechanically enjoy, solely because of the community. I’m not remotely offended, I have other stuff I could be doing that’s more enjoyable.
On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote: I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories: -Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one). -Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?) -Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that.
Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups.
As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place
People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children.
It can be about the groups, but even more so, I think it is about breaking taboos, and trying to insult someone just by stating something outrageous. For the groups themselves, I think the only way is to embrace the loaded terms. Fighting them is likely counter productive and won't solve any underlying issues.
Edit: one example of the word faggot embraced by the gay community, the Oslo "Faggot Choire", which performs very successful Christmas concerts: https://www.oslofagottkor.no/
In other news, Youtube is going to remove the dislike count from all their videos. I hope they remove comments next in order to make this world a safe space for everybody.
On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote: I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories: -Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one). -Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?) -Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that.
Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups.
As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place
People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children.
It can be about the groups, but even more so, I think it is about breaking taboos, and trying to insult someone just by stating something outrageous. For the groups themselves, I think the only way is to embrace the loaded terms. Fighting them is likely counter productive and won't solve any underlying issues.
Edit: one example of the word faggot embraced by the gay community, the Oslo "Faggot Choire", which performs very successful Christmas concerts: https://www.oslofagottkor.no/
They are breaking a taboo with a particular goal in mind of transgressing said taboo. Also it is the group traditionally denigrated by the term who are appropriating it back in this instance, and something that is relatively commonplace with all sorts of things.
I’m not sure the same can be said of stereotypical raging gamers.
That’s up to folks who belong to traditionally marginalised groups to decide what’s appropriate to their sensibilities.
I don’t think you necessarily have to cede control to folks who want to be persistent pricks though, how TL itself has evolved over time would attest to a cultural shift being possible.
So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
The scene has matured a lot since then, especially when you browse old TL threads. One can spot a lot of sexist/racist (unwarned) comments even from TL "VIP's", if not even from mods/staff members themselves. It would be shameful to abandon this bare minimum of decency.
On November 13 2021 04:41 FFW_Rude wrote: So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
I just wanna mention that the big Artosis has a very interesting youtube channels(not run by him) dedicated to his misery from playing macro Terran. If anyone is close to idra it's him and his streaming. Plays macro all the time? check. Whines about Protoss? check. Hates cheesers? check. Has emotional breakdowns? check. ______
Honestly, I don't get this. It's the internet, it's anonymous, nobody cares. I get this shit is personal when they know the person who they attack - e.g. Rotti(he doesn't play barcode, does he?). But otherwise? FFS how can you get offended by a random person trying to hit your note with random words? It's like trolling, it only works when you react to that. That's why ignoring works. Trust me. I really know what I'm talking about
If you want the other person to be adult and behaving like that, start with yourself. Adults don't get offended by children.
Meh none of those players you mentioned were particularly good. They got outsized attention for their skill level because they created drama. I always thought it was lame. Like who wants to see some NA gm bitch and moan and not gg. Would rather watch a pro.
It's rather ironic that for the most part these people went on post-StarCraft to have quite regular lives.
- IdrA went on to study Condensed Matter Physics in college and quit gaming completely.
- CombatEX is a CompSci university teacher now somewhere in Canada. From what I've read he's mellowed quite a bit too.
- HuK is currently working as President of Gaming at The Kraft Group.
This is not uncommon either. Once they stop playing competitive games they often go back to being generally normal people. Most of the banter wasn't authentic anyways. Most of it was just WWE persona nonsense purely for the purpose of "entertainment".
On November 13 2021 04:41 FFW_Rude wrote: So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
I just wanna mention that the big Artosis has a very interesting youtube channels(not run by him) dedicated to his misery from playing macro Terran. If anyone is close to idra it's him and his streaming. Plays macro all the time? check. Whines about Protoss? check. Hates cheesers? check. Has emotional breakdowns? check. ______
Honestly, I don't get this. It's the internet, it's anonymous, nobody cares. I get this shit is personal when they know the person who they attack - e.g. Rotti(he doesn't play barcode, does he?). But otherwise? FFS how can you get offended by a random person trying to hit your note with random words? It's like trolling, it only works when you react to that. That's why ignoring works. Trust me. I really know what I'm talking about
If you want the other person to be adult and behaving like that, start with yourself. Adults don't get offended by children.
This turned out to be way longer than intended. Sorry!
Your last paragraph is very odd. It has the assumption that the problem is that the victim gets hurt by the aggressor, instead of the problem being that there exists an aggressor at all. But let's say I start with myself. I am not offended by being called slurs. Done! Problem solved? Is there a 10 year old girl trying the game and gets hit by "I hope you die in a fire while I rape your mom" that is a victim? Yes. Conclusion: problem not solved.
The thread started with pro players being edgy with banter. This discussion has moved to the regular players being edgy and crossing lines. It was a natural transition, but it helps highlighting the original query. I'll rephrase it to show how it's being highlighted: Is it good that the ones in power display behaviour that is hurtful to many (note that it says "many", not "a majority")? With a lot, a lot a lot, of statistical analysis of societal behaviour and specific studies in that field (rise of Nazis in 20th century is one big contributor to this), we know that if the people see a behaviour, that behaviour is likely to be reproduced and taken to an extreme. This is especially true when the actor of the behaviour is in a postion of power e.g. a celebrity (read pro player). If the pros are being a bit edgy, there will be more amateurs that cross the line. Therefore, people in power are held to a higher standard.
The pros are discouraged from being edgy. This does not hinder them from jokingly banter. Banter with smiles should be encouraged, as GSL is doing in the code S. It shows the community a positive way to interact with each other. People who wants to throw insults are shown how they can do it without going to destructive extremes.
Holding public figures accountable for their action is 1 way to reduce the negativity that exists in gaming communities.
We can argue our personal opinions on this here on TL. But there are many studies of gaming communities and their impact on mental health. It's basically unanimously agreed that gaming communities have negative effects on the mental health of its members, but it is getting better. The culprit is the insults and the negative behaviour of a formerly white male dominated platform that women and non-whites are now a big part of. These studies are not restricted to the US (some believe this). Many of the studies have been reproduced in different parts of the world, many of them were international to begin with. We can also argue our personal opinions on the value of mental health, but there are studies done in that field as well. It is costly for the nation were the person with mental health issues live. Reducing toxic behaviour leads to monetary gain via people feeling better. There is basically no downside to cranking down on this behaviour. Holding our pros accountable isn't eliminating the problem, only reducing it. In order to reduce it even more we need more ways. The ones among us community members that are able should confront it whenever we encounter it. If the community is actively opposing this, letting the victims be victims while the rest of us are fighting, we can make great progress.
This thread has argued what is bad and how, and a short summary is: Targetting sexuality, race, religion is bad. Some people are defending acts of violence and hopes of lethal mishaps as good while other say they are bad. People with a weak mental state suffers more from each blow. Assuming that your opponent is like you is not good (practice empathy instead of sympathy, your feelings are not the same as the feelings of others).
My take on this is that anything which will have negative impacts on stereotypes of different minorities should be avoided. We cannot take every entitled snowflake into account, but we can take groups into account. There are depressed people, black people, muslims, young, females. I am sure that we have a 14 year old girl, emigrant from Syria who lost family members in the war. She is probably a depressed, black, muslim girl with a dead parent. Will she be hurt by what is being said?
I am not sure if TL is a good example of culture change, but rather that people get older. I would not be surprised if more regulars are 50+ than teenagers here. Random nasty words just don't stay fun.
I agree but I'd give different example. MC was fun to watch, he wasn't bm and just had personality. This is what we need in SC2, some rivalry + personality. Not toxic bm, of course.
On November 12 2021 05:35 confusedzerg wrote: okay, makes sense. but one question: where did i advocate for hate speech? or where did anyone else mention it beside you?
This may be a language issue, because you realize I was quoting you in the post correct?
many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever.
It doesn't matter who the person is, this doesn't have any place in civil society. You suggesting that hate speech is ok as long as it's not in the presence of those it marginalizes is both factually incorrect and in fact encouraging hate speech.
then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened?
Your question answers itself.
The examples in your OP of the "banter" you'd like to bring back to SCII include homophobic jokes, rape jokes and IdrA dropping "retarded" multiple times.
This is toxic and hateful speech.
To be honest I think this thread should be closed. I will not be participating anymore.
you are a little girl honestly. oh wait you probably think that is sexist because you equate women with girls. "waaa close thread we talk about mean words that i identify with". grow some thicker skin my friend. if someone call you a faggot? call them a faggot back and go on about your day. or just ignore them. you do not have a problem with words but with the human condition and when you realise that you will realise we cannot fix this by banning words. next you will be offended by "dumb" or "stupid", or maybe you already are
On November 14 2021 00:07 Slydie wrote: I am not sure if TL is a good example of culture change, but rather that people get older. I would not be surprised if more regulars are 50+ than teenagers here. Random nasty words just don't stay fun.
in nada body thread look at first page.... and look at incontrol old post where he call people faggot casually. TL definitely good example of (forced) culture change
On November 13 2021 04:41 FFW_Rude wrote: So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
i would just call him retard back and then laugh to show him im not taking him serious to get him angrier which is more funny. or maybe i'd just laugh because he is getting mad over chess.
On November 12 2021 05:35 confusedzerg wrote: okay, makes sense. but one question: where did i advocate for hate speech? or where did anyone else mention it beside you?
This may be a language issue, because you realize I was quoting you in the post correct?
many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever.
It doesn't matter who the person is, this doesn't have any place in civil society. You suggesting that hate speech is ok as long as it's not in the presence of those it marginalizes is both factually incorrect and in fact encouraging hate speech.
then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened?
Your question answers itself.
The examples in your OP of the "banter" you'd like to bring back to SCII include homophobic jokes, rape jokes and IdrA dropping "retarded" multiple times.
This is toxic and hateful speech.
To be honest I think this thread should be closed. I will not be participating anymore.
you are a little girl honestly. oh wait you probably think that is sexist because you equate women with girls. "waaa close thread we talk about mean words that i identify with". grow some thicker skin my friend. if someone call you a faggot? call them a faggot back and go on about your day. or just ignore them. you do not have a problem with words but with the human condition and when you realise that you will realise we cannot fix this by banning words. next you will be offended by "dumb" or "stupid", or maybe you already are
Do you really have to throw stuff at someone who already said they’d not be participating any more in the thread?
That aside, while TL is a good example of a culture shift and I agree there, I don’t think it can stuck in the ‘forced’ category, it wasn’t like one day the place just changed its moderation policies and went banning people, posters got older, learned things and it moved reasonably organically too, although ofc the mods enforce the new cultural standard.
A good shift, IMO but that’s very subjective. My post count is so high partly because I do most of my interneting on TL, and can’t be bothered with other places.
Scenario A 1. People are obnoxious 2. Everyone else has to put up with it
Scenario B 1. People are obnoxious 2. Community doesn’t put up with it, so either you stop being an obnoxious arse or you take your ball and go play by yourself.
Scenario A is forever couched with the ‘it’s the internet’, I disagree it necessarily has to be that way, and I don’t think, myself that jokey banter is something to be entirely eliminated.
Perhaps in other games this already is the case, I don’t personally know, eventually players engaging in banter and camaraderie and banter will be banned in an effort to wipe out the toxic shite most of the playerbase are sick of.
And it will be framed as some censorious strike against freedom, rather than an unfortunate consequence of having to do something in lieu of toxic idiots being unable to control themselves.
The onus is always, always stuck on people being thin-skinned and sensitive, I can’t think of people with thinner skins who spam abuse at people because a game isn’t going well.
EPT
