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On November 12 2021 22:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote:
I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories:
-Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one).
-Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?)
-Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that. Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups. As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children.
It can be about the groups, but even more so, I think it is about breaking taboos, and trying to insult someone just by stating something outrageous. For the groups themselves, I think the only way is to embrace the loaded terms. Fighting them is likely counter productive and won't solve any underlying issues.
Edit: one example of the word faggot embraced by the gay community, the Oslo "Faggot Choire", which performs very successful Christmas concerts:
https://www.oslofagottkor.no/
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In other news, Youtube is going to remove the dislike count from all their videos. I hope they remove comments next in order to make this world a safe space for everybody.
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On November 13 2021 01:12 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2021 22:04 WombaT wrote:On November 12 2021 07:00 Slydie wrote:
I am honestly a bit puzzled why sexism and racism came up here. BM is about hurting with insults, and you can't know your opponent's ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender, so insults in that ballpark are likely to miss the mark. If used, it would be more to let out frustration, not really to hurt the recipient.
In my experience, BM are mostly in 3 categories:
-Gaming skill (fkn noob) and "no life" as a gamer (takes one to know one).
-Threats of violence (not that serious, how would they find you?)
-Wishes of serious illness and death, including to friends and family members.
To me, the 3rd one is by far the worst. It is actually so awfull I have never heard anyone say something like "die of cancer" out loud, but it is pretty common gamer lingo. But, as that is also pretty common, our skin has grown thick enough to even resist that. Sexism and racism in the absence of individuals from those categories is arguably more telling of people’s attitudes towards those groups. As a gay friend of mine once said to me he was less bothered about people calling him a faggot in games as he was that it was seen as an insult in the first place People get frustrated, which is understandable. I can handle the odd outburst but within gaming there’s forever been a code that toxic behaviour is fine and people should grow a pair and get over it, rather than the, to me more obvious path of discouraging people from behaving like errant children. It can be about the groups, but even more so, I think it is about breaking taboos, and trying to insult someone just by stating something outrageous. For the groups themselves, I think the only way is to embrace the loaded terms. Fighting them is likely counter productive and won't solve any underlying issues. Edit: one example of the word faggot embraced by the gay community, the Oslo "Faggot Choire", which performs very successful Christmas concerts: https://www.oslofagottkor.no/
They are breaking a taboo with a particular goal in mind of transgressing said taboo. Also it is the group traditionally denigrated by the term who are appropriating it back in this instance, and something that is relatively commonplace with all sorts of things.
I’m not sure the same can be said of stereotypical raging gamers.
That’s up to folks who belong to traditionally marginalised groups to decide what’s appropriate to their sensibilities.
I don’t think you necessarily have to cede control to folks who want to be persistent pricks though, how TL itself has evolved over time would attest to a cultural shift being possible.
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So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
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The scene has matured a lot since then, especially when you browse old TL threads. One can spot a lot of sexist/racist (unwarned) comments even from TL "VIP's", if not even from mods/staff members themselves. It would be shameful to abandon this bare minimum of decency.
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Competitive banter and light trash talk is fine. When it gets to personal attacks and vulgarity, that’s when I draw the line.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 13 2021 04:41 FFW_Rude wrote:
So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
I just wanna mention that the big Artosis has a very interesting youtube channels(not run by him) dedicated to his misery from playing macro Terran. If anyone is close to idra it's him and his streaming.
Plays macro all the time? check.
Whines about Protoss? check.
Hates cheesers? check.
Has emotional breakdowns? check.
______
Honestly, I don't get this. It's the internet, it's anonymous, nobody cares. I get this shit is personal when they know the person who they attack - e.g. Rotti(he doesn't play barcode, does he?). But otherwise? FFS how can you get offended by a random person trying to hit your note with random words? It's like trolling, it only works when you react to that. That's why ignoring works. Trust me. I really know what I'm talking about 
If you want the other person to be adult and behaving like that, start with yourself. Adults don't get offended by children.
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Meh none of those players you mentioned were particularly good. They got outsized attention for their skill level because they created drama. I always thought it was lame. Like who wants to see some NA gm bitch and moan and not gg. Would rather watch a pro.
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It's rather ironic that for the most part these people went on post-StarCraft to have quite regular lives.
- IdrA went on to study Condensed Matter Physics in college and quit gaming completely.
- CombatEX is a CompSci university teacher now somewhere in Canada. From what I've read he's mellowed quite a bit too.
- HuK is currently working as President of Gaming at The Kraft Group.
This is not uncommon either. Once they stop playing competitive games they often go back to being generally normal people. Most of the banter wasn't authentic anyways. Most of it was just WWE persona nonsense purely for
the purpose of "entertainment".
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On November 13 2021 07:43 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2021 04:41 FFW_Rude wrote:
So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama. I just wanna mention that the big Artosis has a very interesting youtube channels(not run by him) dedicated to his misery from playing macro Terran. If anyone is close to idra it's him and his streaming. Plays macro all the time? check. Whines about Protoss? check. Hates cheesers? check. Has emotional breakdowns? check. ______ Honestly, I don't get this. It's the internet, it's anonymous, nobody cares. I get this shit is personal when they know the person who they attack - e.g. Rotti(he doesn't play barcode, does he?). But otherwise? FFS how can you get offended by a random person trying to hit your note with random words? It's like trolling, it only works when you react to that. That's why ignoring works. Trust me. I really know what I'm talking about If you want the other person to be adult and behaving like that, start with yourself. Adults don't get offended by children.
+ Show Spoiler +This turned out to be way longer than intended. Sorry!
Your last paragraph is very odd.
It has the assumption that the problem is that the victim gets hurt by the aggressor, instead of the problem being that there exists an aggressor at all.
But let's say I start with myself. I am not offended by being called slurs. Done!
Problem solved? Is there a 10 year old girl trying the game and gets hit by "I hope you die in a fire while I rape your mom" that is a victim? Yes.
Conclusion: problem not solved.
The thread started with pro players being edgy with banter. This discussion has moved to the regular players being edgy and crossing lines.
It was a natural transition, but it helps highlighting the original query. I'll rephrase it to show how it's being highlighted: Is it good that the ones in power display behaviour that is hurtful to many (note that it says "many", not "a majority")?
With a lot, a lot a lot, of statistical analysis of societal behaviour and specific studies in that field (rise of Nazis in 20th century is one big contributor to this), we know that if the people see a behaviour, that behaviour is likely to be reproduced and taken to an extreme. This is especially true when the actor of the behaviour is in a postion of power e.g. a celebrity (read pro player).
If the pros are being a bit edgy, there will be more amateurs that cross the line. Therefore, people in power are held to a higher standard.
The pros are discouraged from being edgy. This does not hinder them from jokingly banter. Banter with smiles should be encouraged, as GSL is doing in the code S. It shows the community a positive way to interact with each other.
People who wants to throw insults are shown how they can do it without going to destructive extremes.
Holding public figures accountable for their action is 1 way to reduce the negativity that exists in gaming communities.
We can argue our personal opinions on this here on TL. But there are many studies of gaming communities and their impact on mental health. It's basically unanimously agreed that gaming communities have negative effects on the mental health of its members, but it is getting better. The culprit is the insults and the negative behaviour of a formerly white male dominated platform that women and non-whites are now a big part of. These studies are not restricted to the US (some believe this). Many of the studies have been reproduced in different parts of the world, many of them were international to begin with.
We can also argue our personal opinions on the value of mental health, but there are studies done in that field as well. It is costly for the nation were the person with mental health issues live.
Reducing toxic behaviour leads to monetary gain via people feeling better. There is basically no downside to cranking down on this behaviour.
Holding our pros accountable isn't eliminating the problem, only reducing it. In order to reduce it even more we need more ways. The ones among us community members that are able should confront it whenever we encounter it. If the community is actively opposing this, letting the victims be victims while the rest of us are fighting, we can make great progress.
This thread has argued what is bad and how, and a short summary is:
Targetting sexuality, race, religion is bad. Some people are defending acts of violence and hopes of lethal mishaps as good while other say they are bad.
People with a weak mental state suffers more from each blow.
Assuming that your opponent is like you is not good (practice empathy instead of sympathy, your feelings are not the same as the feelings of others).
My take on this is that anything which will have negative impacts on stereotypes of different minorities should be avoided. We cannot take every entitled snowflake into account, but we can take groups into account. There are depressed people, black people, muslims, young, females. I am sure that we have a 14 year old girl, emigrant from Syria who lost family members in the war. She is probably a depressed, black, muslim girl with a dead parent.
Will she be hurt by what is being said?
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I am not sure if TL is a good example of culture change, but rather that people get older. I would not be surprised if more regulars are 50+ than teenagers here. Random nasty words just don't stay fun.
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I agree but I'd give different example. MC was fun to watch, he wasn't bm and just had personality. This is what we need in SC2, some rivalry + personality. Not toxic bm, of course.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 12 2021 06:33 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2021 05:35 confusedzerg wrote:
okay, makes sense. but one question: where did i advocate for hate speech? or where did anyone else mention it beside you? This may be a language issue, because you realize I was quoting you in the post correct? Show nested quote + many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. It doesn't matter who the person is, this doesn't have any place in civil society. You suggesting that hate speech is ok as long as it's not in the presence of those it marginalizes is both factually incorrect and in fact encouraging hate speech. Show nested quote + then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened? Your question answers itself. The examples in your OP of the "banter" you'd like to bring back to SCII include homophobic jokes, rape jokes and IdrA dropping "retarded" multiple times. This is toxic and hateful speech. To be honest I think this thread should be closed. I will not be participating anymore.
you are a little girl honestly. oh wait you probably think that is sexist because you equate women with girls. "waaa close thread we talk about mean words that i identify with". grow some thicker skin my friend. if someone call you a faggot? call them a faggot back and go on about your day. or just ignore them. you do not have a problem with words but with the human condition and when you realise that you will realise we cannot fix this by banning words. next you will be offended by "dumb" or "stupid", or maybe you already are
User was temp banned for this post.
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 14 2021 00:07 Slydie wrote:
I am not sure if TL is a good example of culture change, but rather that people get older. I would not be surprised if more regulars are 50+ than teenagers here. Random nasty words just don't stay fun.
in nada body thread look at first page.... and look at incontrol old post where he call people faggot casually. TL definitely good example of (forced) culture change
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Russian Federation102 Posts
On November 13 2021 04:41 FFW_Rude wrote:
So you want stupid people that call other names ? Would like to have people like this around you in your real life ? Would you like to play let's say a game of chess and sudenly the guy calls you a fucking retard and give you the finger every twenty second ? Would you really like that ?
I don't think you would. Then why would you need some in Starcraft. That makes no sense. idra was at least human but the other...deezer was even a cheater.....
If you want drama, watch a reality show. Sports and E-Sports don't need drama.
i would just call him retard back and then laugh to show him im not taking him serious to get him angrier which is more funny. or maybe i'd just laugh because he is getting mad over chess.
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Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On November 16 2021 00:43 confusedzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2021 06:33 Arghmyliver wrote:On November 12 2021 05:35 confusedzerg wrote:
okay, makes sense. but one question: where did i advocate for hate speech? or where did anyone else mention it beside you? This may be a language issue, because you realize I was quoting you in the post correct? many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. It doesn't matter who the person is, this doesn't have any place in civil society. You suggesting that hate speech is ok as long as it's not in the presence of those it marginalizes is both factually incorrect and in fact encouraging hate speech. then like a true westerner you just barrade me with more and more buzz words to push your "argument": as for target harassment and sexism, first of all everyone in sc2 is the same sex, so i dont see how we can be sexist, can you name an example this happened? Your question answers itself. The examples in your OP of the "banter" you'd like to bring back to SCII include homophobic jokes, rape jokes and IdrA dropping "retarded" multiple times. This is toxic and hateful speech. To be honest I think this thread should be closed. I will not be participating anymore. you are a little girl honestly. oh wait you probably think that is sexist because you equate women with girls. "waaa close thread we talk about mean words that i identify with". grow some thicker skin my friend. if someone call you a faggot? call them a faggot back and go on about your day. or just ignore them. you do not have a problem with words but with the human condition and when you realise that you will realise we cannot fix this by banning words. next you will be offended by "dumb" or "stupid", or maybe you already are
Do you really have to throw stuff at someone who already said they’d not be participating any more in the thread?
That aside, while TL is a good example of a culture shift and I agree there, I don’t think it can stuck in the ‘forced’ category, it wasn’t like one day the place just changed its moderation policies and went banning people, posters got older, learned things and it moved reasonably organically too, although ofc the mods enforce the new cultural standard.
A good shift, IMO but that’s very subjective. My post count is so high partly because I do most of my interneting on TL, and can’t be bothered with other places.
Scenario A
1. People are obnoxious
2. Everyone else has to put up with it
Scenario B
1. People are obnoxious
2. Community doesn’t put up with it, so either you stop being an obnoxious arse or you take your ball and go play by yourself.
Scenario A is forever couched with the ‘it’s the internet’, I disagree it necessarily has to be that way, and I don’t think, myself that jokey banter is something to be entirely eliminated.
Perhaps in other games this already is the case, I don’t personally know, eventually players engaging in banter and camaraderie and banter will be banned in an effort to wipe out the toxic shite most of the playerbase are sick of.
And it will be framed as some censorious strike against freedom, rather than an unfortunate consequence of having to do something in lieu of toxic idiots being unable to control themselves.
The onus is always, always stuck on people being thin-skinned and sensitive, I can’t think of people with thinner skins who spam abuse at people because a game isn’t going well.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37067 Posts
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EPT
