I think it depends on what people are actually looking for here. By almost any possible metric there is way more "off-script" behavior, banter, player rivalries, etc, than there were in the early days of SC2, including top players and casters trash-talking, balance whining after losing, making fun of each other, calling each other out specifically, etc. The biggest transformation here has been in the Korean scene, where the KESPA script has been almost totally replaced by much more humorous, outgoing, dramatic narrative-building. Still, it's true that there's way less DRAMA than there used to be, but it's mostly just bc:
(1) People just take it all less seriously, since SC2 is now the wizened granddaddy of ESPORTS instead of the trailblazer and so there's not the same intense pressure to forge a path and be THE Professional ESPORT with a capital P. I can't imagine some of Idra's very basic balance whining or early ggs getting the attention now that they did then. But back then there was a very strong scene-wide conflict btw preexisting male internet culture and the desire to build a mainstream ESPORT and people were trying to craft and enforce new, scene-wide professional norms in real time and there was a lot of comparison anxiety over SC2's design, balance, and cultural position which made idra and ppl like him a flashpoint for Very Serious Discussions. I can't say I miss them.
(2) It's an old and smaller scene where there's less new blood and many players and casters have been around for a long time, and so at this point they pretty much all know each other and are friends. Which gives any trash-talking/balance-whining that exists a very different feel since it's very obviously between close friends or at least btw people who have probably hung out and had beers together on more than one occasion.
Imo I vastly prefer the more relaxed, friendly dynamic of modern SC2 to either the insecure performance-anxiety professionalism or DRAMA with a capital D of the early years. But most of what people are actually missing here is just the intensity and drama of SC2 as a rising trailblazer ESPORT, not the innate "excitement" of a top player saying he lost because imba.
While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
I was a fan of CombatEX. His videos were actually pretty informative and he did play with a passion and he seemed to have a ton of fun.
With Idra he almost seemed miserable while playing. While his knowledge of the game and fundamentals were good, I did not quite enjoy watching him as much.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
Please do not project your personal shortcomings onto the rest of society.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
On November 10 2021 23:30 Arghmyliver wrote: WombaT said it well - there is a difference between toxic nonsense and pantomime villainy.
Let's see this clever banter then shall we -
Gee, how hilarious, someone gunning for the most times to type "raped" in an SCII match. And then some homophobic jokes. Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me.
This might be hilarious to you, but it's insanely hurtful to many people and therefore has been justifiably ostracized from the community.
I would encourage you to cultivate a better sense of humour.
edit: an SCII match
It just, sucks.
Most people don’t know how to be edgy, and tread that line where they’re amusingly transgressive, the vast, vast majority either don’t have the chops or are too lazy to manage it. I myself can really only do it amongst good friends where I have a gauge of their sensibilities
So what you get is boring, boring, boring abusive invective, spammed ad nauseam and if you’re unimpressed it’s because you’re fragile, or offended, or salty or whatever.
It’s just fucking boring, and I’m so thoroughly sick of it. I’m 32 now and I’ve been playing games online in some capacity since I was 6/7 with OG Diablo.
Aside from being offensive and, the offensiveness 9/10 times being applied to marginalised groups in the space too, which I also 100% agree with you on. Why I like TL, the community in general and the moderation team when required really do make it a nice, pleasant space to inhabit.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
That is a sad and way to generalized view. Is this projection from someone who sees himself as far from rage normally? I know a lot of people who would never be small rage kids. Among my friends I only know of 1 that would turn to rage from increasing frustration, and he hates it. He is trying to better himself and has done so since before puberty hit. There are other ways of coping than rage. The easiest way is to quit, but that isn't the way for growth. A better and harder way is to change your expectations. Since frustration stems from thinking that something that should be simply isn't. "I should improve faster" -> "I need to change my practice strategy or practice for a longer period of time". Even harder to learn how to do is accepting how things are, which results in no frustration at all.
There are a lot more ways to handle frustration.
Back to the OP's topic: I genuinely dislike the BM and banter that isn't in jest. I confront people that are doing it almost every time I encounter it. Rage is an even less liked thing. I face it with low affection and try to understand where the rage is coming from to help them defeat their rage.
People being mean and people raging are my biggest sources of frustration. You are allowed to be upset, but don't take it out on people that has got nothing to do with it. As a professional SC2 player your job is entertaining, they are making money off of people watching. If they are mean and raging on stream, they are letting the innocent viewers take part. That is wrong, imo.
i do not understand issue either way. all of you who say you do not like him, just do not pay attention to them. you dont like idra? simply do not watch his stream, right? only time it may be slightly annoy to you is if someones like combatex or deezer streamsnipe a stream you are watch. but if huk and idra dont really mind them then i think slightly silly for you to dislike it so much. i also think combat did not stream cheat, only snipe, but i digress. regardless we have guru today, i like watching his stream, this is funny: https://www.twitch.tv/guruht/clip/HedonisticRichPorcupinePeanutButterJellyTime?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time like he is not stream cheat but stream snipe only.
but humor is subjective, cannot say i am less mature, i cannot choose what i find funny, like what Joker said (haha)
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
That is a sad and way to generalized view. Is this projection from someone who sees himself as far from rage normally? I know a lot of people who would never be small rage kids. Among my friends I only know of 1 that would turn to rage from increasing frustration, and he hates it. He is trying to better himself and has done so since before puberty hit. There are other ways of coping than rage. The easiest way is to quit, but that isn't the way for growth. A better and harder way is to change your expectations. Since frustration stems from thinking that something that should be simply isn't. "I should improve faster" -> "I need to change my practice strategy or practice for a longer period of time". Even harder to learn how to do is accepting how things are, which results in no frustration at all.
There are a lot more ways to handle frustration.
Back to the OP's topic: I genuinely dislike the BM and banter that isn't in jest. I confront people that are doing it almost every time I encounter it. Rage is an even less liked thing. I face it with low affection and try to understand where the rage is coming from to help them defeat their rage.
People being mean and people raging are my biggest sources of frustration. You are allowed to be upset, but don't take it out on people that has got nothing to do with it. As a professional SC2 player your job is entertaining, they are making money off of people watching. If they are mean and raging on stream, they are letting the innocent viewers take part. That is wrong, imo.
my favorite thing in starcraft is when someone is losing and they say "i hope your family gets fucking cancer" or something like this. it's hilarious, how can i be offended? it's not personal at all and it is funny how mad i made them just by winning :D it is just words and no one force you to watch.
On November 11 2021 00:26 Creager wrote: While there's no arguing the fact that even in the age group of 30+ there's more than plenty of man-children around in online gaming, I'm still somewhat confident that overall we as a community have matured quite a bit on average, so with increasing age stuff like this happens less and less, I think.
In addition to that it's also pretty safe to say that online gaming has seen such an enormous growth over the last decade (let alone COVID pandemic) that you will simply have a hard time comparing target demographics from back then and now. Esports and gaming/streaming are way closer to being mainstream today, so naturally the provided content had to professionalise in order to gather more attention and please a much wider audience and also to attract more sponsors who usually aren't interested in supporting 'edgy' personas.
Like WombaT pointed out I, too, love watching Artosis rage clips from time to time, but I couldn't watch him impersonating his 16-year old self for multiple hours on a live stream and it's also particularily funny since in contrast he's such a different persona when he's casting, so there's just more complexity/nuancing going on overall.
Trust me mate all men are man children, online or not makes no difference, all men turn into little rage kids when frustration reaches a certain point.
That is a sad and way to generalized view. Is this projection from someone who sees himself as far from rage normally? I know a lot of people who would never be small rage kids. Among my friends I only know of 1 that would turn to rage from increasing frustration, and he hates it. He is trying to better himself and has done so since before puberty hit. There are other ways of coping than rage. The easiest way is to quit, but that isn't the way for growth. A better and harder way is to change your expectations. Since frustration stems from thinking that something that should be simply isn't. "I should improve faster" -> "I need to change my practice strategy or practice for a longer period of time". Even harder to learn how to do is accepting how things are, which results in no frustration at all.
There are a lot more ways to handle frustration.
Back to the OP's topic: I genuinely dislike the BM and banter that isn't in jest. I confront people that are doing it almost every time I encounter it. Rage is an even less liked thing. I face it with low affection and try to understand where the rage is coming from to help them defeat their rage.
People being mean and people raging are my biggest sources of frustration. You are allowed to be upset, but don't take it out on people that has got nothing to do with it. As a professional SC2 player your job is entertaining, they are making money off of people watching. If they are mean and raging on stream, they are letting the innocent viewers take part. That is wrong, imo.
my favorite thing in starcraft is when someone is losing and they say "i hope your family gets fucking cancer" or something like this. it's hilarious, how can i be offended? it's not personal at all and it is funny how mad i made them just by winning :D it is just words and no one force you to watch.
Look at boxing, it's a complete joke, they went with the 'hey if it draws eyes and has drama it's good' approach. Great now we've got Conor McGregor fighting Floyd Mayweather for some reason, and about 18 Pauls who are Youtube personalities on big boxing bills.
Yeah it draws eyes but just, basically ruins the actual integrity of the sport and the appeal for actual fans for the sake of cheap novelty views.
That's what you get when generating 'hype' is what's important, and it fucking sucks, keep it out of my Starcraft.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
No, I've played with some fucking idiot who thinks spouting bile is acceptable and people who don't want to be bothered with it are participating in 'cancel' culture', or are sensitive snowflakes or w/e
It sucks, attempts to justify it suck, it makes, largely the entire experience of playing games worse.
Literally people should just fucking grow up and behave with some decorum, their expectations of society sucking up to their own inadequacies is the problem, not 'cancel culture' or 'PC' or whatever the fuck the kids are moaning about these days.
Behave like a fucking adult, maybe let your frustrations occasionally get the better of you sure, nobody's perfect but absolutely nothing is gained from people sauntering around saying they hope people die of cancer.
It's just shit, people should stop doing it, or if they want to continue doing it be negatively judged by everyone else for doing it
On November 11 2021 07:53 Die4Ever wrote: https://youtu.be/ApENU9PgwxU damn this video still gracks me up, Idra's face at 0:43
Still an amazing clip to this day.
Despite my prior rantings on BM, I did enjoy Idra a lot.
He did genuinely seem a pretty complex character and he contributed to the scene positively in other ways. I can’t even remember the event but some of my favourite casting ever was Idra as the analysis guy, and it was genuinely top-notch stuff. His State of the Game contributions were many, and heartfelt and genuine even if some may have disagreed.
Of casters who were never really in regular rotation Idra and Grubby were just amazing, and totally different characters.
Meeting the guy at Dreamhack 2011 he was an absolute consummate gent, indulging in some good natured, incredibly dry ribbing of Ret who was our other companion.
If the level of villainy would be constrained to a ‘nice skill toi have’ or ‘fuck off’ in response to ‘did you know it was halluc?’ I’m all for a bit of villainy
And honestly Huk rubbing it in that his little gambit had worked in game was as BM as much of what Idra did
WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
On November 11 2021 09:15 confusedzerg wrote: WombaT, you make good point. i love watch UFC. not sure if you are familiar, you mention conor, but every time there is fight, during the pre-fight press conference, the fighters are talking a lot of shit. a LOT of shit. then, when the fight is over, they hug and compliment each other. they didn't mean any of it but sometimes they can be very convincing.
to the others, it would be immature to say ufc fans are immature for enjoying this, yes?
it's well known that they do this simply to draw viewers in. some fighters are better at it than others. sure there are some fights where the fighters say "i have nothing but respect for my opponent i hope is good fight", and opponent says same thing, and that is okay too. but it is more entertaining when they talk shit.
i do not know if you have saw the conor vs khabib fight. but conor was talking lots of shit before fight, even saying thing about khabib religion and wife wearing a towel (burka) during marriage, and khabib culture this is very serious so he take offense. thus in middle of fight conor said to him "its only business" aka i was only saying these things for our own benefit. sure he maybe took it too far and this happen in sc2 sometimes, many westerner probably think it is too far when combatex call someone faggot or so for one example. it is up to the person. for example i do not think combatex would say this to scarlett or whatever. i think the boundary is obvious most time and it seem like they never really crossed this line except when idra said thing about his fans which made him get remove from EG. others like deezer are just immune to this effect but also exclude them from many other thing like joining team. guru is banned from many tournament for being accused of racist sayings. it's tricky and i hate to beat dead horse but current cancel culture doesnt help this either. but that is separate discussion lets ignore i said that.
'It's just words' is just a stupid copout to justify asinine behaviour. Yes there's satisfaction upon beating some angry idiot, I'll give you that. The rest of the time? If I lose, win/draw whatever have I had fun? Have I had a nice, honourable battle of wits with an opponent, have I had a chance to maybe, fuck call me crazy but friend the guy and find a good practice partner or someone to play team games with?
i do think this is silly though. you are treating it more than just words i think. the man is not justified for saying he hope i get cancer, never said this, but i would not be justified if i took offense. why? because it's not a personal insult, its from a stranger mad at a game. maybe you dont think it is funny but dont take offense. that's fine. but i have read reddit thread about people saying they will quit game because of BM. that is silly to me. rather than justify i am trying to say it should be expected especailyl on internet game.
To a point, there’s a reason McGregor went from a plucky cocky upstart, largely loved in his native land to a good chunk of us wanting him to lose.
Stupid BM adds nothing to the gaming experience. Many of us are older folks now and, frankly want to relax within a competitive hobby framework.
To stress, it adds nothing, the onus is on those who think BM and toxic behaviour are great to, well prove it. What’s the argument beyond ‘stop being sensitive?’ What fun aside from beating a BM player does toxic behaviour bring to the community?
To stress, massively, I’m not personally offended, although I think other groups of people would be, given certain standard topics such folks go ro.
It doesn’t add anything other than carte blanche for men/woman children to behave accordingly
Grow up, play the game, treat defeat and victory with equal grace and learn something. If you’re frustrated hell engage in some soft, witty BM if you want
If people don’t want to do that and think it’s fun calling every opponent a faggot well, that’s on them and I would consider that a bad life choice
Yeah idk, witty banter is fine in a non-competitive environment like ladder for me, but this doesn't really belong into a pro-game and it needs to be witty and non-toxic for me to enjoy.
Like HuK rubbing in that he won with illusions was fine for me, because it's essentially half about the game and half about IdrA's temper. To boot these two clearly knew each other beforehand.
But in the first video I just thought all the time that Combat first looked like an idiot when he kept repeating "you're shit" and then like an ass when he basically said that IdrA is a looser because he choose a career path he didn't become extremely successful in. Like it didn't look tongue in cheek at all to me, even if it was meant tongue in cheek there was no way for IdrA to tell and I fail to see how it'd be funny.
I'd much rather people add personality in interviews than in ingame chat, the boss-toss f.e. was very beloved and I always took his arrogance as playful. If anything I'm missing that kind of joking personality in interviews rather than BM and villains.
But in the first video I just thought all the time that Combat first looked like an idiot when he kept repeating "you're shit" and then like an ass when he basically said that IdrA is a looser because he choose a career path he didn't become extremely successful in. Like it didn't look tongue in cheek at all to me, even if it was meant tongue in cheek there was no way for IdrA to tell and I fail to see how it'd be funny.
he just dissed the comeback back "yeah it would be a shame if your life was in this" and "yeah man i got it rough, it sucks to be me". this is how it is and how it was up until ~2010 or so. so it was overall funny because of idras witty comebacks. idra clearly didnt give a shit about combatexs opinion (why would he)
I really enjoy rivalry, mild trash talk, and oversized egos in e-sports, and I do think it helps grow community participation. I used to relish matches between TL and EG for example, and loved it when the Boss Toss MC would say ridiculous things. It helped to tell a story and give people something to cheer for or against. There are very few players like that left - Dark and Reynor come to mind a little bit, and PartinG on his stream but not so much in public tournaments. Personally, I don't want SC2 to be a completely sterile place set aside for sophisticated adults only. Some drama and swagger helps spice things up and brings in new viewers (and potential players) to the scene and I don't want to be the old guy telling the young'ins to behave and get off my lawn. I'd encourage some rebelliousness in anyone who wants to go for that sort of thing
That said, I never enjoyed any sort of overly personal or vulgar insults, or drama that actually damaged the integrity of the game (like the NaNiwa probe rush or the match fixing scandals). The ladder was also a cesspit of people who would just constantly say horrible things to each other, which is why I haven't put serious time into ladder since WoL - not sure if that's still the case. IdrA in particular was a tough case for me. He obviously cared a lot about the game and brought in the views (he was a participant in some of the most memorable moments of early SC2), and his personal friends said he was a really nice/smart guy behind the scenes. Unfortunately, the way he lashed out at people sometimes was pretty uncomfortable and made me not want to watch.
EPT
