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Watching some games in IEM, watching certain pros getting all this crazy tech, only to have it hard countered and killed immediately...all I wanted to do is scream at the screen "OPEN 1 GAS FAST CHARGE, GET YOUR 3RD AT 3:40 AND ATTACK WITH 4-6 CHARGELOTS AND KEEP ATTACKING THE TERRAN NAT WITH WAVES OF CHARGELOTS WHILE YOU MACRO LIKE A BOSS ARG"
In my experience it's a fantastic opener with an insane amount of versatility in terms of when and how it transitions. And additionally, it leads to some serious sleeper compositions like Adept Chargelot (Adepts shading on top of the bio or Battle Mech to prevent kiting while Chargelots close the distance).
And to further this, you're not so gas starved you can't open with a chrono'd Stalker to handle the scouting Reaper, nor are you so gas starved you can't get a fast +1 armor or an additional 2 Stalkers to catch HeroMarine's 3 mine drop opener as it jets into your base...
It just blows my mind that such a potent opener that transitions so well is basically not used. Especially since it handles cheese fairly well too, going as far as being able to hard counter Maru's proxy marauder concussive shell blindly with a partial probe pull.
Any ideas as to why it's not used? Especially by pros in PvT?
Edit; because it would really help if I provided replays...here are a few!
https://drop.sc/replay/13338820
https://drop.sc/replay/13338827
https://drop.sc/replay/13338829
https://drop.sc/replay/13368193
Now imagine if a pro did something based on this opener instead of a D2 baddie.
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At what level do you play? I'm asking this sincerely. Is this a build that works for you in GM? If so, can we see some replays?
Or is this a M3 or lower build?
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On February 27 2020 06:34 Chemist391 wrote:
At what level do you play? I'm asking this sincerely. Is this a build that works for you in GM? If so, can we see some replays?
Or is this a M3 or lower build?
I'm D2 but this build has been utterly stomping well into the 4k MMR range with absolutely no signs of slowing down and has stomped on M1 players before (or at least ones who claimed to be M1 on another server).
Outside of getting caught off guard or not transitioning fast enough, it just doesn't lose and I have a good 90% WR in the MU to attest to that fact.
If you'd like example replays, I can dig a few up, it should give a general idea of how the opener functions and would let pros know if it's something they could adapt into their style of play (I think it could with great effect), regardless of how badly I screw it up...because as a D2; I can, will and have screwed the pooch lol.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
i used to play like this back in WOL is a valid strategy but what i think is not much viable at highlevel because mines and marines will killyou
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With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
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Aside from the fact that you’re 4k MMR, I think any variation of 1-1-1 will stop this once terran techs to banshees and defends with tanks
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On February 27 2020 06:47 BonitiilloO wrote:
i used to play like this back in WOL is a valid strategy but what i think is not much viable at highlevel because mines and marines will killyou
Mines just mean trickle in Chargelots 1 or 2 at a time to cause friendly fire/waste mine shots.Or split your Chargelots so mines don't hit them all. Been in this scenario many, many times and usually, it's a losing proposition for the Terran.
Marines don't do so well vs Chargelots my friend, they can't really kite them anymore and if there's a massive marine ball, well, you probably should have additional tech, no? Heck, even Glaive Adepts+Chargelots handles gigantic Marine balls fairly well.
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On February 27 2020 06:53 iMrising wrote:
Aside from the fact that you’re 4k MMR, I think any variation of 1-1-1 will stop this once terran techs to banshees and defends with tanks
Had this happen, doesn't work unless you're caught unaware. You have a forge at home along with your 3 Stalkers. Banshees are not going to find any meaningful openings and using them to harass means you're missing how many resources from the defense? Not wise vs +1 armor chargelots, they'll break your wall, kill your tank, wreck your SCVs and force you to float back to the main. If you don't have a nat, then they soft contain you - which is a GG scenario.
Additionally, any kind of 111 push that happens, like marine Tank gets routed and results in your nat being contested, which is also basically a GG scenario.
Would you like some replays?
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On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
Oh, I know, I can't speak to a GM level. At best, the build is near auto win in D2 which implies it should be more than viable at D1 and M3. If we are to believe some of the players I've faced in unranked, it also beats M1 players fairly easily.
With that being said, there's a very real possibility that this could be very potent if a pro tries to adapt the opener since they're obviously much more skilled than I am and won't make the same mistakes I've made.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I would assume the answer is they’re simply not manly enough.
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On February 27 2020 07:06 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural. Oh, I know, I can't speak to a GM level. At best, the build is near auto win in D2 which implies it should be more than viable at D1 and M3. If we are to believe some of the players I've faced in unranked, it also beats M1 players fairly easily. With that being said, there's a very real possibility that this could be very potent if a pro tries to adapt the opener since they're obviously much more skilled than I am and won't make the same mistakes I've made.
There are other aspects to consider too. Some strategies work well in ladder, where the opponent is unknown and it is less common to meet the same opponent. This is rarely the case for professional matches. Additionally, many strategies that are really strong in some leagues aren't merely weaker in higher leagues, they could be virtually unplayable. I've encountered many ladder players who go have cheesed there way up the ladder and then hit a brick wall when the opponent defends their cheese because they never learned how to play macro. Also, some M1 players aren't really representative of all masters players, especially if TvP is their weakest matchup.
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You have been defeated by WALL.
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On February 27 2020 07:40 krlwlzn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 07:06 BabelFish1 wrote:On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural. Oh, I know, I can't speak to a GM level. At best, the build is near auto win in D2 which implies it should be more than viable at D1 and M3. If we are to believe some of the players I've faced in unranked, it also beats M1 players fairly easily. With that being said, there's a very real possibility that this could be very potent if a pro tries to adapt the opener since they're obviously much more skilled than I am and won't make the same mistakes I've made. There are other aspects to consider too. Some strategies work well in ladder, where the opponent is unknown and it is less common to meet the same opponent. This is rarely the case for professional matches. Additionally, many strategies that are really strong in some leagues aren't merely weaker in higher leagues, they could be virtually unplayable. I've encountered many ladder players who go have cheesed there way up the ladder and then hit a brick wall when the opponent defends their cheese because they never learned how to play macro. Also, some M1 players aren't really representative of all masters players, especially if TvP is their weakest matchup.
In the case of the "unknown" issue, I use the same strategy vs the same people constantly, they know exactly what I'm opening with and it hasn't mattered all too much. I mean what is Terran going to do to stop fast charge with +1 armor? That finishes around 3:40-3:50, they could try cheesing but a shield battery, a Stalker and a probe pull from the nat holds all but the most staunch cheeses fairly easily.
Now, that doesn't mean opponents in M1 or GM wouldn't adapt, there's an ocean of difference between a D2/D1 player and a M1/GM player but I'm not entirely certain even if you did open blindly with this every game that Terran could really do much about it.
I mean fast mines and tanks don't really help vs chargelots adn can literally get you killed with their friendly fire being dragged into your bio and SCVs. Marauders+conc shell are oooookay but get out numbered quickly due to warp gates being 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and having less stringent restrictions on chargelot production Marines end up as a joke until Medivac support happens...I just don't see a reliable scenario where Terran can contest the opener unless they go battle mech, which trades well until Adepts and Stalkers get added in...then battle mech starts to suck real bad since Adepts can shade on top and "force field" the battle mech in place.
And if they rush Hellbats...that's just asking to get Disruptor'd to death...
The only other 4 options are mine drops, Banshees, hellion drop or Liberators. All of which don't do well vs the Stalkers you're supposed to get for exactly that scenario if they're positioned well and you react fast with the probe pull and in the case of Banshees, you have a forge, get a cannon for detect.
So I don't believe that it's unworkable in GM or at pro level. In fact I have a suspicion it would work very well there for the same reasons it works well in D2; there is no one answer to the situation of a Protoss fast 3rd, +1 armor and fast charge and trying to punish a Protoss in that situation is incredibly dangerous because if you get routed, which +1 Chargelots are GREAT at doing, you not only lose your army but you lose the ability to defend your nat effectively and that means the Protoss is free to expand as they 1-a chargelots from across the map.
I think a pro should jump on one of their barcode accounts and try out my opener, see if it works well. Worst case scenario, it's not very good and I'm being silly. Best case scenario...they now have a new opener which spanks most Terran players. Realistically, though, I think it'll just make a really, really good pocket strategy that's viable on all maps.
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Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
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On February 27 2020 06:56 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 06:47 BonitiilloO wrote:
i used to play like this back in WOL is a valid strategy but what i think is not much viable at highlevel because mines and marines will killyou Mines just mean trickle in Chargelots 1 or 2 at a time to cause friendly fire/waste mine shots.Or split your Chargelots so mines don't hit them all. Been in this scenario many, many times and usually, it's a losing proposition for the Terran. Marines don't do so well vs Chargelots my friend, they can't really kite them anymore and if there's a massive marine ball, well, you probably should have additional tech, no? Heck, even Glaive Adepts+Chargelots handles gigantic Marine balls fairly well.
Mines can just unburrow to counter you trying to bait shots, so that sort of defusing doesn't work very well (at least not at the pro level, where we have seen many of them being very comfortable with this sort of micro).
This sounds like a pretty powerful one-off build, but the philosophy sounds similar to any "mass units + pressure + fast third" build, e.g. phoenix adept, gladept, blink stalker pressure, and all of those get countered because you have a very critical weak timing when you're trying to transition out of mass units into higher tech (e.g. phoenix adept dies to a mine-heavy push if the terran can figure out when you're making other units). I think this build has some potential since it may catch terrans off guard if they don't have a good gauge on how well they will trade against your army, but it, just like the other builds I mentioned above, shouldn't be a viable go-to macro build.
In your particular case, I don't think you get enough stalkers to defend consistent widow mine drops, and if you warp in too many stalkers, then your fast +1 armor and charge become somewhat negated. None of the four replays you showed seem to have mine drops (I only skimmed through sc2replaystats, didn't watch the replays themselves), and generally the terrans don't seem to be playing decent builds anyway. I don't think your initial chargelot moveout does damage if the terran scouts it. Most 1-1-1 openings should have like 8-10 marines out by 5 minutes, if not more, which is when your zealot attack seems to hit, and a decent terran will always scout the moveout and have the marines behind a wall/in a bunker. For reference, a proper 1-1-1 will push at around 7 minutes with around 50-60 army supply, so around 20 marines, a few marauders, a tank or three (or mines), a raven/banshee/lib and 2 medivacs, and +1 attack, stim + combat shields. There are many faster versions at 6-6:30 that bring SCVs to build walls (special does this a lot), and I think no amount of armor chargelots break this sort of push on their own (I think you need blink or other tech). In your supplied replays, you have around 12 chargelots at this timing. Even if you have like, 20, and 8 gateways, I don't think you would hold this push with zealots alone.
Also, lastly, part of your pitch is: imagine how good a GM could be with this build! But that's a problem, since chargelots really don't scale very well with skill level. Stats will be able to control blink stalkers way better than you, and slow pushes down and trade and pin the terran, but you can't do much more with chargelots than exactly what you've described, occasionally splitting and otherwise amoving.
But again, if it works for you, great! I think it looks like a fun style to play, it's an easy way to get a lot of map presence while playing greedy behind, and it doesn't require as many resources or micro as blink openings, so it should work well at D3. As a D1 player, I'm pretty sure I would fall behind since I'd overreact, so I do think there's potential at our level.
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On February 27 2020 08:43 Shuffleblade wrote:
Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
I'd be interested too, I can't speak to your opnener but that would have to be quite the push in order to not get deflected by chargelots.
The thing is, with Warp Gates, who cares if you have 8 chargelots attacking the other side of the map? You can warp in a new batch at home to augment your defenses. Like, in this case with a terran juggling bio between bases, why would I let you do that with impunity? I can split my warp in wave between 2 bases since medivacs drop units 1 at a time, which is the absolute worst vs chargelots...meanwhile your nat wall is now breached and you're scrambling with a skeleton force to hold on.
I can't say I've vs'd your exact opener but generally, I have never had an issue vs a 2 base Terran allin using this opener, let alone a bio allin. The Terrans which give me the most trouble are the ones who macro, do a little harass and PF their 3rd, 4th, etc as that lets them block out the sun with Liberators....and as a Protoss main, that puts the fear of Terran in me; mass Liberators.
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On February 27 2020 08:43 Shuffleblade wrote:
Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
Just saw your response, yeah, I think pushes like this would be hard to stop with OP's build. Optimistically, he will have around 8-10 zealots for your push (which is not the case in his replays), and I think proper kiting will always be better for the terran here (esp if you do ebay walls like special does). Plus you have drop potential, since you have the two medivacs. I think the response within the meta to your sort of push would be lots of shield batteries, a few sentries, an immortal and a few blink stalkers and to buy time as long as you can? But the blink stalkers would shut down the drop potential, and the shield batteries make holding the third slightly more likely, so I would get the impression your push does better against OP's build than meta openings (blink into fast third + robo).
Edit: Hmm, OP mentioned a zealot backstab. That makes things a bit more complicated if you don't wall the nat behind the push. I could see that working if the terran is not careful
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On February 27 2020 08:51 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 08:43 Shuffleblade wrote:
Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
Just saw your response, yeah, I think pushes like this would be hard to stop with OP's build. Optimistically, he will have around 8-10 zealots for your push (which is not the case in his replays), and I think proper kiting will always be better for the terran here (esp if you do ebay walls like special does). Plus you have drop potential, since you have the two medivacs. I think the response within the meta to your sort of push would be lots of shield batteries, a few sentries, an immortal and a few blink stalkers and to buy time as long as you can? But the blink stalkers would shut down the drop potential, and the shield batteries make holding the third slightly more likely, so I would get the impression your push does better against OP's build than meta openings (blink into fast third + robo). Edit: Hmm, OP mentioned a zealot backstab. That makes things a bit more complicated if you don't wall the nat behind the push. I could see that working if the terran is not careful
Yeah, unless you get caught before the 1st wave gets moved out, there's almost always going to be a wave of chargelots at your nat, exactly like the replays I provided - if you go mass gateways with my opener, imo, you have to be aggressive constantly, even if you only trade armies and don't do SCV or infrastructure damage.
It keeps the terran at home because if they don't keep everything home, they end up losing control of the nat...and a drop is very unlikely to deal enough damage to justify losing control of the nat vs a 3 base Protoss.
Even a wall sometimes doesn't hold vs chargelot aggression, to get one up that early it costs a lot and its usually too far from scvs to be repaired in time. Especially if you have defensive tanks which do more damage to the wall than the chargelots lol.
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Mine drop harass, liberators, etc. amazing against this opening
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How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
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EPT
