Watching some games in IEM, watching certain pros getting all this crazy tech, only to have it hard countered and killed immediately...all I wanted to do is scream at the screen "OPEN 1 GAS FAST CHARGE, GET YOUR 3RD AT 3:40 AND ATTACK WITH 4-6 CHARGELOTS AND KEEP ATTACKING THE TERRAN NAT WITH WAVES OF CHARGELOTS WHILE YOU MACRO LIKE A BOSS ARG"
In my experience it's a fantastic opener with an insane amount of versatility in terms of when and how it transitions. And additionally, it leads to some serious sleeper compositions like Adept Chargelot (Adepts shading on top of the bio or Battle Mech to prevent kiting while Chargelots close the distance).
And to further this, you're not so gas starved you can't open with a chrono'd Stalker to handle the scouting Reaper, nor are you so gas starved you can't get a fast +1 armor or an additional 2 Stalkers to catch HeroMarine's 3 mine drop opener as it jets into your base...
It just blows my mind that such a potent opener that transitions so well is basically not used. Especially since it handles cheese fairly well too, going as far as being able to hard counter Maru's proxy marauder concussive shell blindly with a partial probe pull.
Any ideas as to why it's not used? Especially by pros in PvT?
Edit; because it would really help if I provided replays...here are a few!
On February 27 2020 06:34 Chemist391 wrote: At what level do you play? I'm asking this sincerely. Is this a build that works for you in GM? If so, can we see some replays?
Or is this a M3 or lower build?
I'm D2 but this build has been utterly stomping well into the 4k MMR range with absolutely no signs of slowing down and has stomped on M1 players before (or at least ones who claimed to be M1 on another server).
Outside of getting caught off guard or not transitioning fast enough, it just doesn't lose and I have a good 90% WR in the MU to attest to that fact.
If you'd like example replays, I can dig a few up, it should give a general idea of how the opener functions and would let pros know if it's something they could adapt into their style of play (I think it could with great effect), regardless of how badly I screw it up...because as a D2; I can, will and have screwed the pooch lol.
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
On February 27 2020 06:47 BonitiilloO wrote: i used to play like this back in WOL is a valid strategy but what i think is not much viable at highlevel because mines and marines will killyou
Mines just mean trickle in Chargelots 1 or 2 at a time to cause friendly fire/waste mine shots.Or split your Chargelots so mines don't hit them all. Been in this scenario many, many times and usually, it's a losing proposition for the Terran.
Marines don't do so well vs Chargelots my friend, they can't really kite them anymore and if there's a massive marine ball, well, you probably should have additional tech, no? Heck, even Glaive Adepts+Chargelots handles gigantic Marine balls fairly well.
On February 27 2020 06:53 iMrising wrote: Aside from the fact that you’re 4k MMR, I think any variation of 1-1-1 will stop this once terran techs to banshees and defends with tanks
Had this happen, doesn't work unless you're caught unaware. You have a forge at home along with your 3 Stalkers. Banshees are not going to find any meaningful openings and using them to harass means you're missing how many resources from the defense? Not wise vs +1 armor chargelots, they'll break your wall, kill your tank, wreck your SCVs and force you to float back to the main. If you don't have a nat, then they soft contain you - which is a GG scenario.
Additionally, any kind of 111 push that happens, like marine Tank gets routed and results in your nat being contested, which is also basically a GG scenario.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
Oh, I know, I can't speak to a GM level. At best, the build is near auto win in D2 which implies it should be more than viable at D1 and M3. If we are to believe some of the players I've faced in unranked, it also beats M1 players fairly easily.
With that being said, there's a very real possibility that this could be very potent if a pro tries to adapt the opener since they're obviously much more skilled than I am and won't make the same mistakes I've made.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
Oh, I know, I can't speak to a GM level. At best, the build is near auto win in D2 which implies it should be more than viable at D1 and M3. If we are to believe some of the players I've faced in unranked, it also beats M1 players fairly easily.
With that being said, there's a very real possibility that this could be very potent if a pro tries to adapt the opener since they're obviously much more skilled than I am and won't make the same mistakes I've made.
There are other aspects to consider too. Some strategies work well in ladder, where the opponent is unknown and it is less common to meet the same opponent. This is rarely the case for professional matches. Additionally, many strategies that are really strong in some leagues aren't merely weaker in higher leagues, they could be virtually unplayable. I've encountered many ladder players who go have cheesed there way up the ladder and then hit a brick wall when the opponent defends their cheese because they never learned how to play macro. Also, some M1 players aren't really representative of all masters players, especially if TvP is their weakest matchup.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
Oh, I know, I can't speak to a GM level. At best, the build is near auto win in D2 which implies it should be more than viable at D1 and M3. If we are to believe some of the players I've faced in unranked, it also beats M1 players fairly easily.
With that being said, there's a very real possibility that this could be very potent if a pro tries to adapt the opener since they're obviously much more skilled than I am and won't make the same mistakes I've made.
There are other aspects to consider too. Some strategies work well in ladder, where the opponent is unknown and it is less common to meet the same opponent. This is rarely the case for professional matches. Additionally, many strategies that are really strong in some leagues aren't merely weaker in higher leagues, they could be virtually unplayable. I've encountered many ladder players who go have cheesed there way up the ladder and then hit a brick wall when the opponent defends their cheese because they never learned how to play macro. Also, some M1 players aren't really representative of all masters players, especially if TvP is their weakest matchup.
In the case of the "unknown" issue, I use the same strategy vs the same people constantly, they know exactly what I'm opening with and it hasn't mattered all too much. I mean what is Terran going to do to stop fast charge with +1 armor? That finishes around 3:40-3:50, they could try cheesing but a shield battery, a Stalker and a probe pull from the nat holds all but the most staunch cheeses fairly easily.
Now, that doesn't mean opponents in M1 or GM wouldn't adapt, there's an ocean of difference between a D2/D1 player and a M1/GM player but I'm not entirely certain even if you did open blindly with this every game that Terran could really do much about it.
I mean fast mines and tanks don't really help vs chargelots adn can literally get you killed with their friendly fire being dragged into your bio and SCVs. Marauders+conc shell are oooookay but get out numbered quickly due to warp gates being 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and having less stringent restrictions on chargelot production Marines end up as a joke until Medivac support happens...I just don't see a reliable scenario where Terran can contest the opener unless they go battle mech, which trades well until Adepts and Stalkers get added in...then battle mech starts to suck real bad since Adepts can shade on top and "force field" the battle mech in place.
And if they rush Hellbats...that's just asking to get Disruptor'd to death...
The only other 4 options are mine drops, Banshees, hellion drop or Liberators. All of which don't do well vs the Stalkers you're supposed to get for exactly that scenario if they're positioned well and you react fast with the probe pull and in the case of Banshees, you have a forge, get a cannon for detect.
So I don't believe that it's unworkable in GM or at pro level. In fact I have a suspicion it would work very well there for the same reasons it works well in D2; there is no one answer to the situation of a Protoss fast 3rd, +1 armor and fast charge and trying to punish a Protoss in that situation is incredibly dangerous because if you get routed, which +1 Chargelots are GREAT at doing, you not only lose your army but you lose the ability to defend your nat effectively and that means the Protoss is free to expand as they 1-a chargelots from across the map.
I think a pro should jump on one of their barcode accounts and try out my opener, see if it works well. Worst case scenario, it's not very good and I'm being silly. Best case scenario...they now have a new opener which spanks most Terran players. Realistically, though, I think it'll just make a really, really good pocket strategy that's viable on all maps.
Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
On February 27 2020 06:47 BonitiilloO wrote: i used to play like this back in WOL is a valid strategy but what i think is not much viable at highlevel because mines and marines will killyou
Mines just mean trickle in Chargelots 1 or 2 at a time to cause friendly fire/waste mine shots.Or split your Chargelots so mines don't hit them all. Been in this scenario many, many times and usually, it's a losing proposition for the Terran.
Marines don't do so well vs Chargelots my friend, they can't really kite them anymore and if there's a massive marine ball, well, you probably should have additional tech, no? Heck, even Glaive Adepts+Chargelots handles gigantic Marine balls fairly well.
Mines can just unburrow to counter you trying to bait shots, so that sort of defusing doesn't work very well (at least not at the pro level, where we have seen many of them being very comfortable with this sort of micro).
This sounds like a pretty powerful one-off build, but the philosophy sounds similar to any "mass units + pressure + fast third" build, e.g. phoenix adept, gladept, blink stalker pressure, and all of those get countered because you have a very critical weak timing when you're trying to transition out of mass units into higher tech (e.g. phoenix adept dies to a mine-heavy push if the terran can figure out when you're making other units). I think this build has some potential since it may catch terrans off guard if they don't have a good gauge on how well they will trade against your army, but it, just like the other builds I mentioned above, shouldn't be a viable go-to macro build.
In your particular case, I don't think you get enough stalkers to defend consistent widow mine drops, and if you warp in too many stalkers, then your fast +1 armor and charge become somewhat negated. None of the four replays you showed seem to have mine drops (I only skimmed through sc2replaystats, didn't watch the replays themselves), and generally the terrans don't seem to be playing decent builds anyway. I don't think your initial chargelot moveout does damage if the terran scouts it. Most 1-1-1 openings should have like 8-10 marines out by 5 minutes, if not more, which is when your zealot attack seems to hit, and a decent terran will always scout the moveout and have the marines behind a wall/in a bunker. For reference, a proper 1-1-1 will push at around 7 minutes with around 50-60 army supply, so around 20 marines, a few marauders, a tank or three (or mines), a raven/banshee/lib and 2 medivacs, and +1 attack, stim + combat shields. There are many faster versions at 6-6:30 that bring SCVs to build walls (special does this a lot), and I think no amount of armor chargelots break this sort of push on their own (I think you need blink or other tech). In your supplied replays, you have around 12 chargelots at this timing. Even if you have like, 20, and 8 gateways, I don't think you would hold this push with zealots alone.
Also, lastly, part of your pitch is: imagine how good a GM could be with this build! But that's a problem, since chargelots really don't scale very well with skill level. Stats will be able to control blink stalkers way better than you, and slow pushes down and trade and pin the terran, but you can't do much more with chargelots than exactly what you've described, occasionally splitting and otherwise amoving.
But again, if it works for you, great! I think it looks like a fun style to play, it's an easy way to get a lot of map presence while playing greedy behind, and it doesn't require as many resources or micro as blink openings, so it should work well at D3. As a D1 player, I'm pretty sure I would fall behind since I'd overreact, so I do think there's potential at our level.
On February 27 2020 08:43 Shuffleblade wrote: Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
I'd be interested too, I can't speak to your opnener but that would have to be quite the push in order to not get deflected by chargelots.
The thing is, with Warp Gates, who cares if you have 8 chargelots attacking the other side of the map? You can warp in a new batch at home to augment your defenses. Like, in this case with a terran juggling bio between bases, why would I let you do that with impunity? I can split my warp in wave between 2 bases since medivacs drop units 1 at a time, which is the absolute worst vs chargelots...meanwhile your nat wall is now breached and you're scrambling with a skeleton force to hold on.
I can't say I've vs'd your exact opener but generally, I have never had an issue vs a 2 base Terran allin using this opener, let alone a bio allin. The Terrans which give me the most trouble are the ones who macro, do a little harass and PF their 3rd, 4th, etc as that lets them block out the sun with Liberators....and as a Protoss main, that puts the fear of Terran in me; mass Liberators.
On February 27 2020 08:43 Shuffleblade wrote: Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
Just saw your response, yeah, I think pushes like this would be hard to stop with OP's build. Optimistically, he will have around 8-10 zealots for your push (which is not the case in his replays), and I think proper kiting will always be better for the terran here (esp if you do ebay walls like special does). Plus you have drop potential, since you have the two medivacs. I think the response within the meta to your sort of push would be lots of shield batteries, a few sentries, an immortal and a few blink stalkers and to buy time as long as you can? But the blink stalkers would shut down the drop potential, and the shield batteries make holding the third slightly more likely, so I would get the impression your push does better against OP's build than meta openings (blink into fast third + robo).
Edit: Hmm, OP mentioned a zealot backstab. That makes things a bit more complicated if you don't wall the nat behind the push. I could see that working if the terran is not careful
On February 27 2020 08:43 Shuffleblade wrote: Your opening sounds interesting but I'm unsure it works as well in the higher levels. For example, if you have stalkers without blink defending drops or liberators are not easy, especially if your main force is attacking on the other side. You say its easy to defend with three stalkers without blink... Well you also say take your third at 3:40. So you have three bases to defend against bio drops and you got stalkers without blink. Doesn't sound so easy, doable perhaps but not easy.
I wonder how my standard build works against you, I play on the edge between D1 and D2 as well, terran. I go two base very commited 3 rax push at 5-6 mins with my first two medivacs, let me tell you it breaks most thirds. Actually rarely fail unless my opponent has two colossi or storm.
Going for a heavy bio push also means I have plenty to defend your earlier attacks and I stay on two base until after my push.
Just saw your response, yeah, I think pushes like this would be hard to stop with OP's build. Optimistically, he will have around 8-10 zealots for your push (which is not the case in his replays), and I think proper kiting will always be better for the terran here (esp if you do ebay walls like special does). Plus you have drop potential, since you have the two medivacs. I think the response within the meta to your sort of push would be lots of shield batteries, a few sentries, an immortal and a few blink stalkers and to buy time as long as you can? But the blink stalkers would shut down the drop potential, and the shield batteries make holding the third slightly more likely, so I would get the impression your push does better against OP's build than meta openings (blink into fast third + robo).
Edit: Hmm, OP mentioned a zealot backstab. That makes things a bit more complicated if you don't wall the nat behind the push. I could see that working if the terran is not careful
Yeah, unless you get caught before the 1st wave gets moved out, there's almost always going to be a wave of chargelots at your nat, exactly like the replays I provided - if you go mass gateways with my opener, imo, you have to be aggressive constantly, even if you only trade armies and don't do SCV or infrastructure damage. It keeps the terran at home because if they don't keep everything home, they end up losing control of the nat...and a drop is very unlikely to deal enough damage to justify losing control of the nat vs a 3 base Protoss.
Even a wall sometimes doesn't hold vs chargelot aggression, to get one up that early it costs a lot and its usually too far from scvs to be repaired in time. Especially if you have defensive tanks which do more damage to the wall than the chargelots lol.
How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote: How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.
I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?
Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?
Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).
On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote: I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.
1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.
2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.
That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!
The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.
The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.
Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?"
You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin?
Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread?
On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote: How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.
I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?
Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?
Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).
What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible.
What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor.
If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then?
Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible.
On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote: I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.
1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.
2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.
That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!
The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.
The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build.
I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate.
So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position.
It would probably even be more efficient to open double gas and pull out when natural finishes. With 12 worker start theres really no reason to open with 1 gas in a fast expand build anymore.
I thought this was a parody, but nope it's serious. I mean yeah sure you trade early aggression for later tech, but then you might as well go for adepts instead if you want aggression. It just sounds like a weaker phoenix adept.
Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.
You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?
On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote: Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.
You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?
Even better, play in ESL pro cups, you can quickly face master / GM level players in there, and there are numerous terrans so you'd be playing a PvT sooner or later
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
The MaxPax does work at the pro level. It's nowhere close to being an autowin.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".
The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".
The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
I was just replying to one specific poster, not everyone else that commented in the thread.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
The MaxPax does work at the pro level. It's nowhere close to being an autowin.
Also MaxPax is around 6.3-6.5k MMR and actually made that startegy work against high GM. IIrc the Magerie Build was actually invented by a somewhat low level player, who beat Lambo with it on ladder.
I think thats at best a Bulletbuild. But it won´t work on someone that scouts it and prepares any kind of propper defense. Infact, it should get smashed brutally by almost any unit comp. Like Bio with concussiveshells, mines, hellbats, defensive banshees, tanks, anything really if handled decently not only out trades chargelots but fucks em up. And you have very very little micro potential with the zealots to compensate.
However, if you r still getting wins out of it; farm it aslong as it works, then move to the next thing. Don´t cling to builds too much. Some people keep perfecting these somewhat bad builds and it grows into some sort of religious believe and they need to "prove" that they are right in their quest to bring to glory the build that will change the destiny of the starcraft meta... don´t be that guy. Collect your wins, start loosing, move on.
On February 27 2020 19:46 Shuffleblade wrote: Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?"
You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin?
Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread?
On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote: How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.
I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?
Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?
Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).
What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible.
What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor.
If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then?
Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible.
Just a tip; don't make assumptions. Let alone baseless assumptions and drop the attitude. You have misconceptions, I clarify. Simple as that.
You keep missing out that the build can transition anytime you want...and you keep thinking that bio is going to adequately contest chargelots...they don't...they trade evenly at best - which his the point, to keep the terran making replacement units while you do whatever you want whenever you want however you want.
Until you start thinking about this concept a bit more thoroughly I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day.
On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote: I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.
1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.
2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.
That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!
The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.
The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build.
I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate.
So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position.
Blink openers have a hard time with efficient trades vs things like battle mech, I really, really dislike blink as an opener.
Yes, sacrificing your splash is a drawback but it's not a game ending drawback. If you need splash sooner, then get it. Nothing is preventing you from transitioning sooner if needed.
On February 27 2020 20:19 Linko_66 wrote: Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas.
Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible.
On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote: Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.
You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?
You know what's freaking absurd? Making assumptions. Unless I state something specifically, don't presume to know what I'm saying.
On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote: With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem
They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".
The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends.
Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside.
Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable...
Do you see where I'm coming from? You all have opinions on something you haven't tried and some of you are going as far as to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. That's insane.
I have every right to look at most of you with extreme skepticism when you come to me with scenarios that have played out before, indicating you don't really know much about how the opener functions.
Lets be very direct now, most of you aren't interested in discussion, some of you are...but most? Naw, you want to be right, you're not analyzing the situation, you're not really reading things through correctly and when when you're corrected, you assume it's because the op doesn't want to listen.
No, it's YOU who doesn't want to listen for whatever reason. I've been very clear and concise here.
If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak.
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote: If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak.
Let me continue your funny story; said cashier goes onto a dietary forum asking "Why don't more proper nutritionist recommend X diet since it is the best"..... Then said cashier gets multiple answers from people much more experienced and educated in the field just to go on to ignore all of them and claim the nutritionists are ignorant because they don't agree with the cashier on nutrition. The cashier is you and this is a true story, in a way
why do you make strategy posts if you can't handle criticism? every time someone critiques your ideas you show absolutely no willingness to accept your premise could be flawed and condescend to everyone. then when people get annoyed with your attitude you tell everyone else the problem is THEIR attitude and start huffing about how you "refuse to talk to them"
it seems like you just refuse to talk to anyone who posts anything other than "yeah man, you're right! you're so smart! i'm going to play your style now!" which is a colossal waste of everyone's time
On February 28 2020 20:07 alpenrahm wrote: I think thats at best a Bulletbuild. But it won´t work on someone that scouts it and prepares any kind of propper defense. Infact, it should get smashed brutally by almost any unit comp. Like Bio with concussiveshells, mines, hellbats, defensive banshees, tanks, anything really if handled decently not only out trades chargelots but fucks em up. And you have very very little micro potential with the zealots to compensate.
However, if you r still getting wins out of it; farm it aslong as it works, then move to the next thing. Don´t cling to builds too much. Some people keep perfecting these somewhat bad builds and it grows into some sort of religious believe and they need to "prove" that they are right in their quest to bring to glory the build that will change the destiny of the starcraft meta... don´t be that guy. Collect your wins, start loosing, move on.
Listen to the man, as he speaks the truth. In lower leagues, it's fairly easy to win with off meta timings, because... a) everybody sucks b) hitting a somewhat reasonable timing works extremely well against people who aren't scouting and macroing properly.
Especially in Diamond people start to try harder, because they realize that they're not super bad anymore and want to get to Master as fast as possible. They often replicate pro builds to the best of their knowledge, but their knowledge just isn't there yet. So they either begin to allin every single game, because they think they've got some kind of be all, end all build OR they being blaming every loss on external reasons.
Getting over his hurdle is tough, trust me. I've been there. Used to be around 4k forever, until I broke my game down completely and started relearning everything properly.
@topic: I'm zerg (M2 currently), so I can't say anything about PvT, the following ramblings are my gut feelings only: Going charge first seems to be kind of pointless, because it's easily scoutable (unless you hide the twilight, which is also kind of a tell, because then there's stuff missing in your main) and because it hits late enough to allow the terran to get an economic response going. Marines (with support) / mines murder chargelots, in the best of all worlds you kill/delay his third, but then you have to transition fast, because you'll be in trouble holding the stim timing that follows. So yeah, it's by no means a bad opener, but it outstays its welcome above a certain skill level.
Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible.
In order to open with a Stargate, get charge and upgrades you need at least two gasses. There is a somewhat standard build where you delay your natural gas and go phoenix / mass zealot. I've had relative success with it vs M2/M1 if terran has no idea what you're doing or how to respond to that, but got utterly destroyed by opponents with decent macro / multitask cuz you end up too far behind tech-wise in the mid game. I copied this build to the best of my ability from Puck, who uses it against NA GM terrans as kinda troll-ish build but can still pull it off due to his skill. So here's your high level adaptation. It might work, but not in the way you describe it.
On February 27 2020 19:46 Shuffleblade wrote: Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?"
You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin?
Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread?
On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote: How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.
I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?
Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?
Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).
What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible.
What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor.
If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then?
Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible.
Just a tip; don't make assumptions. Let alone baseless assumptions and drop the attitude. You have misconceptions, I clarify. Simple as that.
You keep missing out that the build can transition anytime you want...and you keep thinking that bio is going to adequately contest chargelots...they don't...they trade evenly at best - which his the point, to keep the terran making replacement units while you do whatever you want whenever you want however you want.
Until you start thinking about this concept a bit more thoroughly I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day.
On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote: I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.
1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.
2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.
That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!
The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.
The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build.
I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate.
So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position.
Blink openers have a hard time with efficient trades vs things like battle mech, I really, really dislike blink as an opener.
Yes, sacrificing your splash is a drawback but it's not a game ending drawback. If you need splash sooner, then get it. Nothing is preventing you from transitioning sooner if needed.
On February 27 2020 20:19 Linko_66 wrote: Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas.
Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible.
On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote: Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.
You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?
You know what's freaking absurd? Making assumptions. Unless I state something specifically, don't presume to know what I'm saying.
On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote: With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem
They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".
The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends.
Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside.
Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable...
Do you see where I'm coming from? You all have opinions on something you haven't tried and some of you are going as far as to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. That's insane.
I have every right to look at most of you with extreme skepticism when you come to me with scenarios that have played out before, indicating you don't really know much about how the opener functions.
Lets be very direct now, most of you aren't interested in discussion, some of you are...but most? Naw, you want to be right, you're not analyzing the situation, you're not really reading things through correctly and when when you're corrected, you assume it's because the op doesn't want to listen.
No, it's YOU who doesn't want to listen for whatever reason. I've been very clear and concise here.
If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak.
Wow, you should take you own demands and drop the attitude. You should keep out of the kitchen. Have a nice day.
On February 27 2020 06:18 BabelFish1 wrote: Watching some games in IEM, watching certain pros getting all this crazy tech, only to have it hard countered and killed immediately...all I wanted to do is scream at the screen "OPEN 1 GAS FAST CHARGE, GET YOUR 3RD AT 3:40 AND ATTACK WITH 4-6 CHARGELOTS AND KEEP ATTACKING THE TERRAN NAT WITH WAVES OF CHARGELOTS WHILE YOU MACRO LIKE A BOSS ARG"
In my experience it's a fantastic opener with an insane amount of versatility in terms of when and how it transitions. And additionally, it leads to some serious sleeper compositions like Adept Chargelot (Adepts shading on top of the bio or Battle Mech to prevent kiting while Chargelots close the distance).
And to further this, you're not so gas starved you can't open with a chrono'd Stalker to handle the scouting Reaper, nor are you so gas starved you can't get a fast +1 armor or an additional 2 Stalkers to catch HeroMarine's 3 mine drop opener as it jets into your base...
It just blows my mind that such a potent opener that transitions so well is basically not used. Especially since it handles cheese fairly well too, going as far as being able to hard counter Maru's proxy marauder concussive shell blindly with a partial probe pull.
Any ideas as to why it's not used? Especially by pros in PvT?
Edit; because it would really help if I provided replays...here are a few!
Now imagine if a pro did something based on this opener instead of a D2 baddie.
As soon as terrans identify mass charge zealots they will sim city up with cyclone patrol in main to stop prism, its the same reason why zergs cant beat Terran with pure ling because it is a melee unit. If it comes as a suprise to the terran then yeah it is probably insanely good :D
On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote: With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem
They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production.
I agree with the others that think better midgame pressure oriented builds do better at (1) frontal pressure in general and (2) dealing with Terran walloff, repairs, and defensive liberators and maps with easy defensive siege tank positioning. It feels like you're defending the weak points to tell people to transition, but fail to see that such an investment (council & charge cost early enough for it to catch by surprise, council opportunity cost that could be researching something else) not paying off into a transition sets you behind other builds that handle Terran transitions better.
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote: With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".
The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends.
Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside.
Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable...
Do you see where I'm coming from? You all have opinions on something you haven't tried [[snipped rage that follows]]
I still have problems seeing an early charge killing a bunker with scvs and a siege tank. I could be convinced otherwise with replays on the how and why, but that would take a high masters/GM player crazy enough to try it, and some worthy opponents near his/her skill level. I welcome this kind of pressure with all the other possibilities out there in PvT. Nasty stuff will hit later or weaker if I see chargelots at this stage of the game.
On February 29 2020 04:57 brickrd wrote: why do you make strategy posts if you can't handle criticism? every time someone critiques your ideas you show absolutely no willingness to accept your premise could be flawed and condescend to everyone. then when people get annoyed with your attitude you tell everyone else the problem is THEIR attitude and start huffing about how you "refuse to talk to them"
it seems like you just refuse to talk to anyone who posts anything other than "yeah man, you're right! you're so smart! i'm going to play your style now!" which is a colossal waste of everyone's time
Upon finding this thread and rereading it, I'm now convinced that OP is actually an amazing troll who has successfully baited everyone into spending way too much time trying to understand how pure chargelots might possibly be viable in PvT. Nobody could seriously fail so comprehensively at understanding minerals, gas, and the idea of resources over time. Or the interaction between melee units and walls.
But who knows, maybe he's actually serious and BabelFish will be the next GSL champion.
I think the biggest issue is banshee openings. If the T opens 1 tax CC, it can be really good, but if they tech they'll be able to scout and decide banshees and holding that is just terrible.
On March 04 2020 06:32 ThunderJunk wrote: I think the biggest issue is banshee openings. If the T opens 1 tax CC, it can be really good, but if they tech they'll be able to scout and decide banshees and holding that is just terrible.
How many millennia ago has it been since anyone opened 1 base banshee...i think even OP's awful build would be decent against that
Reaper FE banshee should be ready by 4:30. About the same time charge should finish assuming he can get enough gas off 1 gas.
Also around that time is also around the timing for a widow mine drop or having the units for a poke with bio.
The OP can't even be called an opener or build as there is no info whatsoever other than it is an auto win and that he somehow has "gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots", which btw defies all common sense behind the principles of resource income, that can take out the entire terran army behind walls somehow and he can also deny scouting and scout for everything a terran can do and adapt into...nothing?
I thought this was a parody post of the type of strategy posts that used to be so popular. But then he seemed serious. Like come on, what's the build order? How many gates? How do you adapt to scouting and different builds? There's none of that here.
These sort of "strategy" posts used to be automatically closed for lacking in detail like an actual build order. But I guess standards have to change from lesser activity. That the op has replays showing he is bm is just the icing on the cake.
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote: OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.
I'm actually kinda curious now, lol. Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?
There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm
Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers.
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote: OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.
I'm actually kinda curious now, lol. Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?
There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm
Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers.
I scanned through the vod, however this style is not what the OP was describing. Seems more like 1 gateway into random stuff. Not lots of zealots with charge.
I think on rottis stream you can use x amount of channel points to make him Play a siggested strat. Use that to see your build in Action. Or suggest it for Harstems "beat GMs with stupid stuff" series. Maybe he thinks it has some potential If neither of them can make it work, it s probably not as good as you think it is Edit: also MaxPax has been streaming quite regularly lately. He s more unorthodox and might be willing to try that as well...
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote: OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.
I'm actually kinda curious now, lol. Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?
There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm
Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers.
That's not his style. Other than what BjoernK described, the P opens 2 gas not 1 gas, goes phoenix, though he never harrasses with them, and acts defensively with the zealots for almost the entire game.
On March 06 2020 17:03 dbRic1203 wrote: I think on rottis stream you can use x amount of channel points to make him Play a siggested strat. Use that to see your build in Action. Or suggest it for Harstems "beat GMs with stupid stuff" series. Maybe he thinks it has some potential If neither of them can make it work, it s probably not as good as you think it is Edit: also MaxPax has been streaming quite regularly lately. He s more unorthodox and might be willing to try that as well...
I watched the replay. This is absolutely not viable at high level. He is lacking any kind of defense for key timings. Not taking a second gas is just bad. 2 gas charge is viable and we saw some use of it last IEM. But the build suggested by the OP is lacking necessary defenses.
He opens zealot-->stalker into 2 more zealots. at 4:00 he has 1 stalker and 1 zealot (2 zealots maybe 80% done). At this timing a proxy starport 4 hellion drop could hit or 20 seconds later a regular mine drop could hit, there is nothing to hit the medivacs and zealots will just get absolutely dunked on by good burrown unburrow micro of mines.
I wish the op a lot of luck with this build on the ladder, but it is NOT viable at high level. Sorry!
On March 06 2020 17:03 dbRic1203 wrote: I think on rottis stream you can use x amount of channel points to make him Play a siggested strat. Use that to see your build in Action. Or suggest it for Harstems "beat GMs with stupid stuff" series. Maybe he thinks it has some potential If neither of them can make it work, it s probably not as good as you think it is Edit: also MaxPax has been streaming quite regularly lately. He s more unorthodox and might be willing to try that as well...
I watched the replay. This is absolutely not viable at high level. He is lacking any kind of defense for key timings. Not taking a second gas is just bad. 2 gas charge is viable and we saw some use of it last IEM. But the build suggested by the OP is lacking necessary defenses.
He opens zealot-->stalker into 2 more zealots. at 4:00 he has 1 stalker and 1 zealot (2 zealots maybe 80% done). At this timing a proxy starport 4 hellion drop could hit or 20 seconds later a regular mine drop could hit, there is nothing to hit the medivacs and zealots will just get absolutely dunked on by good burrown unburrow micro of mines.
I wish the op a lot of luck with this build on the ladder, but it is NOT viable at high level. Sorry!
On March 06 2020 17:03 dbRic1203 wrote: I think on rottis stream you can use x amount of channel points to make him Play a siggested strat. Use that to see your build in Action. Or suggest it for Harstems "beat GMs with stupid stuff" series. Maybe he thinks it has some potential If neither of them can make it work, it s probably not as good as you think it is Edit: also MaxPax has been streaming quite regularly lately. He s more unorthodox and might be willing to try that as well...
I watched the replay. This is absolutely not viable at high level. He is lacking any kind of defense for key timings. Not taking a second gas is just bad. 2 gas charge is viable and we saw some use of it last IEM. But the build suggested by the OP is lacking necessary defenses.
He opens zealot-->stalker into 2 more zealots. at 4:00 he has 1 stalker and 1 zealot (2 zealots maybe 80% done). At this timing a proxy starport 4 hellion drop could hit or 20 seconds later a regular mine drop could hit, there is nothing to hit the medivacs and zealots will just get absolutely dunked on by good burrown unburrow micro of mines.
I wish the op a lot of luck with this build on the ladder, but it is NOT viable at high level. Sorry!
Is nobody going to point out that this is Harstem's first post on TL, at least using this account?
Love the Youtube cap, worried my f5 button will break at the rate I've been refreshing for more content
On March 06 2020 17:03 dbRic1203 wrote: I think on rottis stream you can use x amount of channel points to make him Play a siggested strat. Use that to see your build in Action. Or suggest it for Harstems "beat GMs with stupid stuff" series. Maybe he thinks it has some potential If neither of them can make it work, it s probably not as good as you think it is Edit: also MaxPax has been streaming quite regularly lately. He s more unorthodox and might be willing to try that as well...
I watched the replay. This is absolutely not viable at high level. He is lacking any kind of defense for key timings. Not taking a second gas is just bad. 2 gas charge is viable and we saw some use of it last IEM. But the build suggested by the OP is lacking necessary defenses.
He opens zealot-->stalker into 2 more zealots. at 4:00 he has 1 stalker and 1 zealot (2 zealots maybe 80% done). At this timing a proxy starport 4 hellion drop could hit or 20 seconds later a regular mine drop could hit, there is nothing to hit the medivacs and zealots will just get absolutely dunked on by good burrown unburrow micro of mines.
I wish the op a lot of luck with this build on the ladder, but it is NOT viable at high level. Sorry!
Is nobody going to point out that this is Harstem's first post on TL, at least using this account?
Love the Youtube cap, worried my f5 button will break at the rate I've been refreshing for more content
I like the idea he was so sickened with this build he signed up specifically to comment lol
On March 07 2020 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It can't be Harstem. Doesn't Harstem already have an account here called Harstem? I vaguely remember him posting before.
You are correct, not one of the more prolific progamer posters but he has 250 on here under ‘Harstem’ funnily enough as you say.
On March 07 2020 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It can't be Harstem. Doesn't Harstem already have an account here called Harstem? I vaguely remember him posting before.
You are correct, not one of the more prolific progamer posters but he has 250 on here under ‘Harstem’ funnily enough as you say.
there have been occasions where progamers remade accounts because they forgot their logins. most pros aren't very active
On March 07 2020 08:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It can't be Harstem. Doesn't Harstem already have an account here called Harstem? I vaguely remember him posting before.
Well he just made an announcement on youtube, that is pretty much about this thread, where he askes viewers to suggest builds, they think are good. And he ll try to execute them on pro level, to see if they are viewable.
So that was defnatly him and we can put this discussion finally to rest?
1) OP does not meet our guidelines for a strategy discussion thread. 2) OP seems incapable of handling constructive criticism. 3) Progamers have proven that this strategy is not viable at a high level. 4) This thread has run its course.
EPT
