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I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
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On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote:
How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.
I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.
I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?
Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?
Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).
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On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote:
I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all
Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.
1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.
2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.
That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!
The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.
The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.
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Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?"
You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin?
Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread?
On February 27 2020 10:05 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote:
How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.
Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.
Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes. I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons. I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)? Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again? Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).
What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible.
What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor.
If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then?
Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible.
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On February 27 2020 10:18 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote:
I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.
It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are
1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.
2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.
Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol. 1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators. 2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time. That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression. Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable! The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind. The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.
Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build.
I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate.
So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position.
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It would probably even be more efficient to open double gas and pull out when natural finishes. With 12 worker start theres really no reason to open with 1 gas in a fast expand build anymore.
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Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas.
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I thought this was a parody, but nope it's serious. I mean yeah sure you trade early aggression for later tech, but then you might as well go for adepts instead if you want aggression. It just sounds like a weaker phoenix adept.
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if anything were "practically an autowin at your level" you'd be at a higher level
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Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.
You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?
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France12795 Posts
On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote:
Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.
You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?
Even better, play in ESL pro cups, you can quickly face master / GM level players in there, and there are numerous terrans so you'd be playing a PvT sooner or later
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On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.
I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.
Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.
Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
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On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural. I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level. Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it. Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
The MaxPax does work at the pro level. It's nowhere close to being an autowin.
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With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed
I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem
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On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural. I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level. Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it. Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.
You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".
The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
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What if your opponents just masses widowmines...do you auto lose?
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On February 28 2020 09:15 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural. I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level. Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it. Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because. You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)". The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.
I was just replying to one specific poster, not everyone else that commented in the thread.
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On February 28 2020 07:17 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural. I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level. Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it. Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because. The MaxPax does work at the pro level. It's nowhere close to being an autowin.
Also MaxPax is around 6.3-6.5k MMR and actually made that startegy work against high GM.
IIrc the Magerie Build was actually invented by a somewhat low level player, who beat Lambo with it on ladder.
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I think thats at best a Bulletbuild. But it won´t work on someone that scouts it and prepares any kind of propper defense. Infact, it should get smashed brutally by almost any unit comp. Like Bio with concussiveshells, mines, hellbats, defensive banshees, tanks, anything really if handled decently not only out trades chargelots but fucks em up. And you have very very little micro potential with the zealots to compensate.
However, if you r still getting wins out of it; farm it aslong as it works, then move to the next thing. Don´t cling to builds too much. Some people keep perfecting these somewhat bad builds and it grows into some sort of religious believe and they need to "prove" that they are right in their quest to bring to glory the build that will change the destiny of the starcraft meta...
don´t be that guy. Collect your wins, start loosing, move on.
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EPT
