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EPTWhy don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT? - Page 3
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia17446 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?33334 Posts
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BabelFish1
168 Posts
On February 27 2020 19:46 Shuffleblade wrote: Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?" You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin? Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread? What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible. What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor. If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then? Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible. Just a tip; don't make assumptions. Let alone baseless assumptions and drop the attitude. You have misconceptions, I clarify. Simple as that. You keep missing out that the build can transition anytime you want...and you keep thinking that bio is going to adequately contest chargelots...they don't...they trade evenly at best - which his the point, to keep the terran making replacement units while you do whatever you want whenever you want however you want. Until you start thinking about this concept a bit more thoroughly I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day. | ||
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BabelFish1
168 Posts
On February 27 2020 19:49 sudete wrote: Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build. I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate. So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position. Blink openers have a hard time with efficient trades vs things like battle mech, I really, really dislike blink as an opener. Yes, sacrificing your splash is a drawback but it's not a game ending drawback. If you need splash sooner, then get it. Nothing is preventing you from transitioning sooner if needed. On February 27 2020 20:19 Linko_66 wrote: Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas. Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible. On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote: Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response. You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes? You know what's freaking absurd? Making assumptions. Unless I state something specifically, don't presume to know what I'm saying. On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote: With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production. On February 28 2020 09:15 nath wrote: You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)". The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself. To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends. Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside. Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable... Do you see where I'm coming from? You all have opinions on something you haven't tried and some of you are going as far as to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. That's insane. I have every right to look at most of you with extreme skepticism when you come to me with scenarios that have played out before, indicating you don't really know much about how the opener functions. Lets be very direct now, most of you aren't interested in discussion, some of you are...but most? Naw, you want to be right, you're not analyzing the situation, you're not really reading things through correctly and when when you're corrected, you assume it's because the op doesn't want to listen. No, it's YOU who doesn't want to listen for whatever reason. I've been very clear and concise here. If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1754 Posts
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote: If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak. Let me continue your funny story; said cashier goes onto a dietary forum asking "Why don't more proper nutritionist recommend X diet since it is the best"..... Then said cashier gets multiple answers from people much more experienced and educated in the field just to go on to ignore all of them and claim the nutritionists are ignorant because they don't agree with the cashier on nutrition. The cashier is you and this is a true story, in a way | ||
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brickrd
United States4889 Posts
it seems like you just refuse to talk to anyone who posts anything other than "yeah man, you're right! you're so smart! i'm going to play your style now!" which is a colossal waste of everyone's time | ||
virpi
Germany3368 Posts
On February 28 2020 20:07 alpenrahm wrote: I think thats at best a Bulletbuild. But it won´t work on someone that scouts it and prepares any kind of propper defense. Infact, it should get smashed brutally by almost any unit comp. Like Bio with concussiveshells, mines, hellbats, defensive banshees, tanks, anything really if handled decently not only out trades chargelots but fucks em up. And you have very very little micro potential with the zealots to compensate. However, if you r still getting wins out of it; farm it aslong as it works, then move to the next thing. Don´t cling to builds too much. Some people keep perfecting these somewhat bad builds and it grows into some sort of religious believe and they need to "prove" that they are right in their quest to bring to glory the build that will change the destiny of the starcraft meta... don´t be that guy. Collect your wins, start loosing, move on. Listen to the man, as he speaks the truth. In lower leagues, it's fairly easy to win with off meta timings, because... a) everybody sucks b) hitting a somewhat reasonable timing works extremely well against people who aren't scouting and macroing properly. Especially in Diamond people start to try harder, because they realize that they're not super bad anymore and want to get to Master as fast as possible. They often replicate pro builds to the best of their knowledge, but their knowledge just isn't there yet. So they either begin to allin every single game, because they think they've got some kind of be all, end all build OR they being blaming every loss on external reasons. Getting over his hurdle is tough, trust me. I've been there. Used to be around 4k forever, until I broke my game down completely and started relearning everything properly. @topic: I'm zerg (M2 currently), so I can't say anything about PvT, the following ramblings are my gut feelings only: Going charge first seems to be kind of pointless, because it's easily scoutable (unless you hide the twilight, which is also kind of a tell, because then there's stuff missing in your main) and because it hits late enough to allow the terran to get an economic response going. Marines (with support) / mines murder chargelots, in the best of all worlds you kill/delay his third, but then you have to transition fast, because you'll be in trouble holding the stim timing that follows. So yeah, it's by no means a bad opener, but it outstays its welcome above a certain skill level. | ||
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Linko_66
Ukraine25 Posts
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote: Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible. In order to open with a Stargate, get charge and upgrades you need at least two gasses. There is a somewhat standard build where you delay your natural gas and go phoenix / mass zealot. I've had relative success with it vs M2/M1 if terran has no idea what you're doing or how to respond to that, but got utterly destroyed by opponents with decent macro / multitask cuz you end up too far behind tech-wise in the mid game. I copied this build to the best of my ability from Puck, who uses it against NA GM terrans as kinda troll-ish build but can still pull it off due to his skill. So here's your high level adaptation. It might work, but not in the way you describe it. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom6088 Posts
On February 29 2020 02:51 BabelFish1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On February 27 2020 19:46 Shuffleblade wrote: Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?" You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin? Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread? What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible. What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor. If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then? Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible. Just a tip; don't make assumptions. Let alone baseless assumptions and drop the attitude. You have misconceptions, I clarify. Simple as that. You keep missing out that the build can transition anytime you want...and you keep thinking that bio is going to adequately contest chargelots...they don't...they trade evenly at best - which his the point, to keep the terran making replacement units while you do whatever you want whenever you want however you want. Until you start thinking about this concept a bit more thoroughly I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day. On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Wow, you should take you own demands and drop the attitude. You should keep out of the kitchen. Have a nice day.On February 27 2020 19:49 sudete wrote: Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build. I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate. So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position. Blink openers have a hard time with efficient trades vs things like battle mech, I really, really dislike blink as an opener. Yes, sacrificing your splash is a drawback but it's not a game ending drawback. If you need splash sooner, then get it. Nothing is preventing you from transitioning sooner if needed. On February 27 2020 20:19 Linko_66 wrote: Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas. Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible. On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote: Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response. You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes? You know what's freaking absurd? Making assumptions. Unless I state something specifically, don't presume to know what I'm saying. On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote: With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production. On February 28 2020 09:15 nath wrote: You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)". The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself. To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends. Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside. Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable... Do you see where I'm coming from? You all have opinions on something you haven't tried and some of you are going as far as to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. That's insane. I have every right to look at most of you with extreme skepticism when you come to me with scenarios that have played out before, indicating you don't really know much about how the opener functions. Lets be very direct now, most of you aren't interested in discussion, some of you are...but most? Naw, you want to be right, you're not analyzing the situation, you're not really reading things through correctly and when when you're corrected, you assume it's because the op doesn't want to listen. No, it's YOU who doesn't want to listen for whatever reason. I've been very clear and concise here. If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak. | ||
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Dedraterllaerau
74 Posts
On February 27 2020 06:18 BabelFish1 wrote: Watching some games in IEM, watching certain pros getting all this crazy tech, only to have it hard countered and killed immediately...all I wanted to do is scream at the screen "OPEN 1 GAS FAST CHARGE, GET YOUR 3RD AT 3:40 AND ATTACK WITH 4-6 CHARGELOTS AND KEEP ATTACKING THE TERRAN NAT WITH WAVES OF CHARGELOTS WHILE YOU MACRO LIKE A BOSS ARG" In my experience it's a fantastic opener with an insane amount of versatility in terms of when and how it transitions. And additionally, it leads to some serious sleeper compositions like Adept Chargelot (Adepts shading on top of the bio or Battle Mech to prevent kiting while Chargelots close the distance). And to further this, you're not so gas starved you can't open with a chrono'd Stalker to handle the scouting Reaper, nor are you so gas starved you can't get a fast +1 armor or an additional 2 Stalkers to catch HeroMarine's 3 mine drop opener as it jets into your base... It just blows my mind that such a potent opener that transitions so well is basically not used. Especially since it handles cheese fairly well too, going as far as being able to hard counter Maru's proxy marauder concussive shell blindly with a partial probe pull. Any ideas as to why it's not used? Especially by pros in PvT? Edit; because it would really help if I provided replays...here are a few! https://drop.sc/replay/13338820 https://drop.sc/replay/13338827 https://drop.sc/replay/13338829 https://drop.sc/replay/13368193 Now imagine if a pro did something based on this opener instead of a D2 baddie. As soon as terrans identify mass charge zealots they will sim city up with cyclone patrol in main to stop prism, its the same reason why zergs cant beat Terran with pure ling because it is a melee unit. If it comes as a suprise to the terran then yeah it is probably insanely good :D | ||
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Danglars
United States11163 Posts
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote: I agree with the others that think better midgame pressure oriented builds do better at (1) frontal pressure in general and (2) dealing with Terran walloff, repairs, and defensive liberators and maps with easy defensive siege tank positioning. It feels like you're defending the weak points to tell people to transition, but fail to see that such an investment (council & charge cost early enough for it to catch by surprise, council opportunity cost that could be researching something else) not paying off into a transition sets you behind other builds that handle Terran transitions better.They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production. To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends. Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside. Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable... Do you see where I'm coming from? You all have opinions on something you haven't tried [[snipped rage that follows]] I still have problems seeing an early charge killing a bunker with scvs and a siege tank. I could be convinced otherwise with replays on the how and why, but that would take a high masters/GM player crazy enough to try it, and some worthy opponents near his/her skill level. I welcome this kind of pressure with all the other possibilities out there in PvT. Nasty stuff will hit later or weaker if I see chargelots at this stage of the game. | ||
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pvsnp
7326 Posts
On February 29 2020 04:57 brickrd wrote: why do you make strategy posts if you can't handle criticism? every time someone critiques your ideas you show absolutely no willingness to accept your premise could be flawed and condescend to everyone. then when people get annoyed with your attitude you tell everyone else the problem is THEIR attitude and start huffing about how you "refuse to talk to them" it seems like you just refuse to talk to anyone who posts anything other than "yeah man, you're right! you're so smart! i'm going to play your style now!" which is a colossal waste of everyone's time Upon finding this thread and rereading it, I'm now convinced that OP is actually an amazing troll who has successfully baited everyone into spending way too much time trying to understand how pure chargelots might possibly be viable in PvT. Nobody could seriously fail so comprehensively at understanding minerals, gas, and the idea of resources over time. Or the interaction between melee units and walls. But who knows, maybe he's actually serious and BabelFish will be the next GSL champion. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1153 Posts
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Arghmyliver
United States920 Posts
I'm actually kinda curious now, lol. Can someone try the | ||
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iMrising
United States1094 Posts
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote: OP seems very convinced of the I'm actually kinda curious now, lol. Can someone try the There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm  | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States397 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4072 Posts
On March 04 2020 06:32 ThunderJunk wrote: I think the biggest issue is banshee openings. If the T opens 1 tax CC, it can be really good, but if they tech they'll be able to scout and decide banshees and holding that is just terrible. How many millennia ago has it been since anyone opened 1 base banshee...i think even OP's awful build would be decent against that | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom6088 Posts
Also around that time is also around the timing for a widow mine drop or having the units for a poke with bio. The OP can't even be called an opener or build as there is no info whatsoever other than it is an auto win and that he somehow has "gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots", which btw defies all common sense behind the principles of resource income, that can take out the entire terran army behind walls somehow and he can also deny scouting and scout for everything a terran can do and adapt into...nothing? I thought this was a parody post of the type of strategy posts that used to be so popular. But then he seemed serious. Like come on, what's the build order? How many gates? How do you adapt to scouting and different builds? There's none of that here. These sort of "strategy" posts used to be automatically closed for lacking in detail like an actual build order. But I guess standards have to change from lesser activity. That the op has replays showing he is bm is just the icing on the cake. | ||
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iloveoof
3 Posts
On March 04 2020 03:17 iMrising wrote: There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers. | ||
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BjoernK
176 Posts
On March 05 2020 04:14 iloveoof wrote: Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers. I scanned through the vod, however this style is not what the OP was describing. Seems more like 1 gateway into random stuff. Not lots of zealots with charge. | ||
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