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Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT? - Page 3

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BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
February 28 2020 14:52 GMT
#41
No one here understands the OP. You must insert a fish into your ear first.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
February 28 2020 15:04 GMT
#42
Moved to SC2 Strategy.
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
BabelFish1
Profile Joined September 2015
186 Posts
February 28 2020 17:51 GMT
#43
On February 27 2020 19:46 Shuffleblade wrote:
Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?"

You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin?

Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread?


Show nested quote +
On February 27 2020 10:05 BabelFish1 wrote:
On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote:
How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.

Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.

Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.


I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.

I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?

Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?

Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).

What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible.

What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor.

If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then?

Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible.



Just a tip; don't make assumptions. Let alone baseless assumptions and drop the attitude. You have misconceptions, I clarify. Simple as that.

You keep missing out that the build can transition anytime you want...and you keep thinking that bio is going to adequately contest chargelots...they don't...they trade evenly at best - which his the point, to keep the terran making replacement units while you do whatever you want whenever you want however you want.

Until you start thinking about this concept a bit more thoroughly I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day.
BabelFish1
Profile Joined September 2015
186 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-28 18:17:40
February 28 2020 18:04 GMT
#44
On February 27 2020 19:49 sudete wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2020 10:18 BabelFish1 wrote:
On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote:
I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.

It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are

1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.

2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.

Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all


Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.

1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.

2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.

That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.

Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!

The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.

The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.


Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build.

I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate.

So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position.


Blink openers have a hard time with efficient trades vs things like battle mech, I really, really dislike blink as an opener.

Yes, sacrificing your splash is a drawback but it's not a game ending drawback. If you need splash sooner, then get it. Nothing is preventing you from transitioning sooner if needed.

On February 27 2020 20:19 Linko_66 wrote:
Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas.


Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible.

On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote:
Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.

You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?


You know what's freaking absurd? Making assumptions. Unless I state something specifically, don't presume to know what I'm saying.

On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote:
With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed
I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem


They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production.

On February 28 2020 09:15 nath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.


I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.

Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.

Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.

You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".

The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.


To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends.

Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside.

Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable...

Do you see where I'm coming from?
You all have opinions on something you haven't tried and some of you are going as far as to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. That's insane.

I have every right to look at most of you with extreme skepticism when you come to me with scenarios that have played out before, indicating you don't really know much about how the opener functions.

Lets be very direct now, most of you aren't interested in discussion, some of you are...but most? Naw, you want to be right, you're not analyzing the situation, you're not really reading things through correctly and when when you're corrected, you assume it's because the op doesn't want to listen.

No, it's YOU who doesn't want to listen for whatever reason. I've been very clear and concise here.

If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak.

User was warned for this post.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-28 19:58:14
February 28 2020 19:56 GMT
#45
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote:
If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak.

Let me continue your funny story; said cashier goes onto a dietary forum asking "Why don't more proper nutritionist recommend X diet since it is the best"..... Then said cashier gets multiple answers from people much more experienced and educated in the field just to go on to ignore all of them and claim the nutritionists are ignorant because they don't agree with the cashier on nutrition. The cashier is you and this is a true story, in a way
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
February 28 2020 19:57 GMT
#46
why do you make strategy posts if you can't handle criticism? every time someone critiques your ideas you show absolutely no willingness to accept your premise could be flawed and condescend to everyone. then when people get annoyed with your attitude you tell everyone else the problem is THEIR attitude and start huffing about how you "refuse to talk to them"

it seems like you just refuse to talk to anyone who posts anything other than "yeah man, you're right! you're so smart! i'm going to play your style now!" which is a colossal waste of everyone's time
TL+ Member
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-28 22:13:44
February 28 2020 22:12 GMT
#47
On February 28 2020 20:07 alpenrahm wrote:
I think thats at best a Bulletbuild. But it won´t work on someone that scouts it and prepares any kind of propper defense. Infact, it should get smashed brutally by almost any unit comp. Like Bio with concussiveshells, mines, hellbats, defensive banshees, tanks, anything really if handled decently not only out trades chargelots but fucks em up. And you have very very little micro potential with the zealots to compensate.

However, if you r still getting wins out of it; farm it aslong as it works, then move to the next thing. Don´t cling to builds too much. Some people keep perfecting these somewhat bad builds and it grows into some sort of religious believe and they need to "prove" that they are right in their quest to bring to glory the build that will change the destiny of the starcraft meta...
don´t be that guy. Collect your wins, start loosing, move on.

Listen to the man, as he speaks the truth.
In lower leagues, it's fairly easy to win with off meta timings, because...
a) everybody sucks
b) hitting a somewhat reasonable timing works extremely well against people who aren't scouting and macroing properly.

Especially in Diamond people start to try harder, because they realize that they're not super bad anymore and want to get to Master as fast as possible. They often replicate pro builds to the best of their knowledge, but their knowledge just isn't there yet. So they either begin to allin every single game, because they think they've got some kind of be all, end all build OR they being blaming every loss on external reasons.

Getting over his hurdle is tough, trust me. I've been there. Used to be around 4k forever, until I broke my game down completely and started relearning everything properly.

@topic: I'm zerg (M2 currently), so I can't say anything about PvT, the following ramblings are my gut feelings only: Going charge first seems to be kind of pointless, because it's easily scoutable (unless you hide the twilight, which is also kind of a tell, because then there's stuff missing in your main) and because it hits late enough to allow the terran to get an economic response going. Marines (with support) / mines murder chargelots, in the best of all worlds you kill/delay his third, but then you have to transition fast, because you'll be in trouble holding the stim timing that follows. So yeah, it's by no means a bad opener, but it outstays its welcome above a certain skill level.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
Linko_66
Profile Joined July 2011
Ukraine28 Posts
February 28 2020 23:19 GMT
#48
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote:

Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible.



In order to open with a Stargate, get charge and upgrades you need at least two gasses. There is a somewhat standard build where you delay your natural gas and go phoenix / mass zealot. I've had relative success with it vs M2/M1 if terran has no idea what you're doing or how to respond to that, but got utterly destroyed by opponents with decent macro / multitask cuz you end up too far behind tech-wise in the mid game. I copied this build to the best of my ability from Puck, who uses it against NA GM terrans as kinda troll-ish build but can still pull it off due to his skill. So here's your high level adaptation. It might work, but not in the way you describe it.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-29 15:56:10
February 29 2020 15:55 GMT
#49
On February 29 2020 02:51 BabelFish1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On February 27 2020 19:46 Shuffleblade wrote:
Hey, do you know your topic is named "Why don't more people open 1 gas Charge in PvT?"

You also repeated that question in your first post, however you seem completely uninterested in any and all answers you have received. You just post back how they are wrong and your openining is the best most ultimate build for protoss in PvT that exist, you even called it an autowin?

Are you interested in getting the answer to your question or is this a cloaked My opening is the best ever and everyone should use it thread?


Show nested quote +
On February 27 2020 10:05 BabelFish1 wrote:
On February 27 2020 09:28 pvsnp wrote:
How is this different from Rail going Charge first? Rotti has talked about it a few times, and the answer for Terran is just to sit back and expand/tech up instead of pushing. Some light drop harass while keeping most of the army at home.

Gateway armies fall off fast, and then all those resources are mostly wasted. Once Ghosts or Liberators are out, all those chargelots are pretty worthless without splash damage, and you delayed your splash damage to afford them.

Honestly, your build sounds like Chargelot/Phoenix without Phoenixes.


I don't know anything about Rail or their charge 1st opener so I can't make any comparisons.

I don't know if I fully agree with Rotti on that, sitting back and not attacking is general a better answer than moving out and then losing the game because of it, absolutely but to what end? What possible tech can you get to threaten a Protoss who you just ceded map control to, a Protoss who took full advantage of that? And why on earth would you stick to pure Gateways if your needs evolve, let alone skip AoE completely (storm is a thing)?

Also, how are you going to secure your 3rd vs gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots that the Protoss WANTS to throw into you as an even trade, only to make another round a split second later to throw at you again?

Rotti's advice seems to be more related to the 2 base chargelot allin rather than my opener, which is supposed to be a macro build (though you can easily turn it into a 2 base charge allin if you want - which is what Rotti's advice applies to imo).

What you are Writing here really makes no sense whatsoever. You are saying you have gigantic roaming packs of zealots that are stronger than any army the terran could build in that part of the game and at the same time you have better economy than the terran. Alright but you also wrote packS, as in that your packs are split up. Meaning you Think you have multiple armies that are stronger than any army the terran can make? This is just straight up impossible.

What you are also missing is that even if you can tech later, because templars exist. Alright, you have a strong army, a strong economy but your only Tech is charge, a twilight, one forge and +1 armor.

If the terran gets a bio army they can Contest your zealots, sure they will take their third later than you but if it was me I would have waay more Tech than you. I would have combatshield, stim, 1+ and +1 as well as medivacs. That is a HUGE Tech advantage, even if you tech later the timing I have is so powerful you risk losing your third base and what happens then?

Then you are behind in economy, tech and army. Your opening has big weaknesses, many posters have explained ut much better than I can. Your build has very strong harass potential so I'm not saying for example my build or any Heavy bio build is better than yours but it definitely is not as lopsided as you make it sound. The build gives you auto army win, auto safe third base and economy edge, its not possible.



Just a tip; don't make assumptions. Let alone baseless assumptions and drop the attitude. You have misconceptions, I clarify. Simple as that.

You keep missing out that the build can transition anytime you want...and you keep thinking that bio is going to adequately contest chargelots...they don't...they trade evenly at best - which his the point, to keep the terran making replacement units while you do whatever you want whenever you want however you want.

Until you start thinking about this concept a bit more thoroughly I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. Have a nice day.

On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On February 27 2020 19:49 sudete wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2020 10:18 BabelFish1 wrote:
On February 27 2020 10:02 sudete wrote:
I like how the first replay you have for us includes a preemptive gg from you and saying "thanks for the relaxing game" to a terran who didn't say anything at all. Not the most respectful thing I have seen.

It's an alright opening against diamond-tier opposition that falls off when you start facing competent terrans who scout you making zealots, or those who actually know how to get a wall up and don't just have a tiny army at 5 min. I guess you could stretch your imagination to think that a korean protoss trying this sort of thing would hide things better but I find it hard to believe that this plan is superior to the standard (twilight robo 3 gate third base double forge) mass gateway style. Obvious concerns I see with your particular build here are

1) The frontal push isn't even that amazing and, if handled competently (e.g. with a wall), leave you with 3 bases on 3 gateways and splash damage a thousand years away with only 1 set of upgrades coming in. Your army is going to be +1 armor zealots with a handful of stalkers on an economy that is only slightly better compared to someone who opens with a standard twilight robo opening (with double upgrades to compete with terran). As pvsnp rightly pointed out, this is like an unrefined version of a charge first build if we try to compare it to what pros are doing. Longevity is an issue here.

2) Absolute lack of scouting and, according to your replay when you were preemptively gg'ing, no robo even until 7 minutes. No sentry halluc scouting. No observers. No clue as to what is going on because staying on 1 gas means every stalker you make is a big impediment to your tech. Can't incorporate a warp prism into the early harassment, so it's really quite one-dimensional and inflexible.

Not saying that it totally sucks and is completely not viable, by the way. It works when it works, in the same way that a high diamond low masters player doing a weird blink DT chargelot timing may find decent results, but it really doesn't seem like something that would yield consistently good results at all


Nothing wrong with a little banter, thanking my opponent for a relaxing game is probably the nicest BM you'll ever see in a sc2 game lol.

1) I think you're missing out on the point of the frontal push. It's not to instantly breach and win the game. It's to see what the Terran is making, trade out some units for theirs as Warp Gates means you're always 1 production cycle ahead of the Terran and that enables you to take even trades while being ahead in army. You just want to keep everyone's army count fairly small and keep the Terran using their resources on replacement units instead of, say, massing liberators.

2) The pressure provides you with scouting info. I don't need to see every last building a Terran has if I see what they're constantly making since it's dedicated to defending constant chargelot aggression. As for the gas, I always grab additional gas after the 3rd completes. Always. So while every Stalker early on is a setback for tech, it's not an unreasonable amount of delay, nor is not grabbing more than 1 gas early set in stone. For example, if I scout Thors or Hellbats I grab 3 gas asap and plop down 1-3 robos for Disruptor production immediately while using Chargelots to secure map control in case they push out, to buy time.

That's the thing about this and why I don't like calling it a build; because it isn't a build; it's an opener that transitions into whatever you like, whenever you like off of chargelot aggression.

Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it. Want to add Tempests faster? Why not! Want to get 24 gateways, 3 forges and smother the Terran in units? Totally doable!

The only important aspects of the opener that can't really be messed with are opening 1 gas, fast TC,fast forge (you really need that +1 armor...) and a fast 3rd. Outside of that, the opener was built with flexibility in mind.

The difference between that weird DT blink chargelot thing that existed a while back and this is this is just an opener and can transition very, very easily into whatever your needs require.


Feel like adding in faster Colossus? Go for it... and die because it's so damn late. Even if you grab 5 gases and rush out a robo -> robo bay -> colossus asap you're already 2 minutes behind someone who will have the whole colossus set-up on a comparable army supply at the same time. 4:40 your base starts, 5:51 your base finishes and you only grab extra gases after that? Even if you "plop down 3 gases" immediately after your initial push (close to 5 minutes already!!!!), it IS an unreasonable delay when you compare it to the sort of set-up that you should have against the terran move-out off a standard opening, whether it be twilight robo blink 3 gate or the robo 3 gate colo opening. I do hear what you're saying, and I think that it may even be favourable for you in certain situations e.g. tank push... it has its quirks and that is acceptable but it is nowhere near as safe or as powerful as you think. Also, your nexus does not go down at 3:40 as you say, it's clearly a lot closer to 4:40 which is much closer to if you did a standard build.

I get it, the theory of it, and I think it's very admirable that you've got something that works on the premise of flexibility and putting you on the front foot, but you cannot ignore the sort of disadvantage you put yourself in in the midgame due to going 1 gas. The pressure you put on is not always going to get you good scouting, because a wall and a tank do not tell you whether he is going 3cc --> 5 rax or 5 rax --> 3rd cc and you're obviously not going to keep sending units at the wall willy-nilly at any rate.

So... just do the standard opening but get charge instead of blink first and you're probably in a much more balanced position.


Blink openers have a hard time with efficient trades vs things like battle mech, I really, really dislike blink as an opener.

Yes, sacrificing your splash is a drawback but it's not a game ending drawback. If you need splash sooner, then get it. Nothing is preventing you from transitioning sooner if needed.

On February 27 2020 20:19 Linko_66 wrote:
Umm, good luck against fast libs push. That's why people add phoenixes to the chargelot openings and that's why it can't be done on one gas.


Stalkers handle Liberators when they're not massed and if you really need a Stargate, get one. The opener is very flexible.

On February 28 2020 01:41 joshie0808 wrote:
Sounds like it only works at your level because your opponents arent good enough scout while defending aggression and making the correct response.

You're basically saying that low gas quick third openers are unbeatable in PvT which is not true. How about you ask a GM terran to play against you and see how it goes?


You know what's freaking absurd? Making assumptions. Unless I state something specifically, don't presume to know what I'm saying.

On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote:
With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed
I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem


They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production.

On February 28 2020 09:15 nath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.


I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.

Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.

Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.

You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".

The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.


To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends.

Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside.

Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable...

Do you see where I'm coming from?
You all have opinions on something you haven't tried and some of you are going as far as to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. That's insane.

I have every right to look at most of you with extreme skepticism when you come to me with scenarios that have played out before, indicating you don't really know much about how the opener functions.

Lets be very direct now, most of you aren't interested in discussion, some of you are...but most? Naw, you want to be right, you're not analyzing the situation, you're not really reading things through correctly and when when you're corrected, you assume it's because the op doesn't want to listen.

No, it's YOU who doesn't want to listen for whatever reason. I've been very clear and concise here.

If you've no understanding of the build, then why would I want your opinion on it's validity? I don't ask a cashier at Walmart for their opinion on my dietary plan...and I expect the cashiers to keep out of the kitchen, so to speak.
Wow, you should take you own demands and drop the attitude. You should keep out of the kitchen. Have a nice day.
Dedraterllaerau
Profile Joined May 2019
113 Posts
March 01 2020 12:34 GMT
#50
On February 27 2020 06:18 BabelFish1 wrote:
Watching some games in IEM, watching certain pros getting all this crazy tech, only to have it hard countered and killed immediately...all I wanted to do is scream at the screen "OPEN 1 GAS FAST CHARGE, GET YOUR 3RD AT 3:40 AND ATTACK WITH 4-6 CHARGELOTS AND KEEP ATTACKING THE TERRAN NAT WITH WAVES OF CHARGELOTS WHILE YOU MACRO LIKE A BOSS ARG"

In my experience it's a fantastic opener with an insane amount of versatility in terms of when and how it transitions. And additionally, it leads to some serious sleeper compositions like Adept Chargelot (Adepts shading on top of the bio or Battle Mech to prevent kiting while Chargelots close the distance).

And to further this, you're not so gas starved you can't open with a chrono'd Stalker to handle the scouting Reaper, nor are you so gas starved you can't get a fast +1 armor or an additional 2 Stalkers to catch HeroMarine's 3 mine drop opener as it jets into your base...

It just blows my mind that such a potent opener that transitions so well is basically not used. Especially since it handles cheese fairly well too, going as far as being able to hard counter Maru's proxy marauder concussive shell blindly with a partial probe pull.

Any ideas as to why it's not used? Especially by pros in PvT?

Edit; because it would really help if I provided replays...here are a few!

https://drop.sc/replay/13338820
https://drop.sc/replay/13338827
https://drop.sc/replay/13338829
https://drop.sc/replay/13368193

Now imagine if a pro did something based on this opener instead of a D2 baddie.



As soon as terrans identify mass charge zealots they will sim city up with cyclone patrol in main to stop prism, its the same reason why zergs cant beat Terran with pure ling because it is a melee unit. If it comes as a suprise to the terran then yeah it is probably insanely good :D
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 02 2020 06:07 GMT
#51
On February 29 2020 03:04 BabelFish1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2020 07:19 NeWHoriZonS69 wrote:
With all due respect, anyone losing to this above 4k2-4k3 should be ashamed
I don't understand how 4-6 zealots at 4:30 are a problem


They aren't if the Terran is decent but they're not supposed to be a game ending problem, they're supposed to be frontal pressure to trade army for army, eventually overpowering the Terran production.
I agree with the others that think better midgame pressure oriented builds do better at (1) frontal pressure in general and (2) dealing with Terran walloff, repairs, and defensive liberators and maps with easy defensive siege tank positioning. It feels like you're defending the weak points to tell people to transition, but fail to see that such an investment (council & charge cost early enough for it to catch by surprise, council opportunity cost that could be researching something else) not paying off into a transition sets you behind other builds that handle Terran transitions better.

Show nested quote +
On February 28 2020 09:15 nath wrote:
On February 28 2020 03:45 Vindicare605 wrote:
On February 27 2020 06:49 krlwlzn wrote:
With all respect, your games can at most suggest it is a solid strategy at your skill level. Assuming it works equally well for pros who are better at basically all aspects of the game is purely conjectural.


I mean, the MaxPax build sounds utterly stupid on paper but somehow it works even at the pro-level.

Just because a lower level person can dream it up, doesn't mean a pro can't refine it to polished chrome and win a game with it.

Just saying, I don't want to discourage people from being creative. If there's valid reasons why it can't work (meta, counters etc.) then talk about those. Don't just shoot a guy down just because.

You are being incredibly unfair to all the helpful posters here who have pointed out exactly why (meta, counters, "etc") this build is not as good as the OP thinks it is, and also answering the post's question "Why don't more people open...(this way)".

The OP disregards all these helpful replies and clearly is unaffected in his belief that this is a superior build, calling into question even the thread title itself.


To be direct here, 3/4 of you don't know what on Earth you're talking about lol. None. Seriously, some of you think Liberator harass is somehow going to make the opener bad when a probe pull and 1 Stalker can shut that down, never mind the additional ones you get for the HeroMarine mine drop+friends.

Some of you think that a Terran with a bunker and a high ground siege tank is going to magically hold 4-6 Chargelots without losing a bunch of SCVs, that bunker and potentially the Marines inside.

Some of you think you're going to have a big freaking bio ball at 4 minutes to come kill me. Well, guess what if CreatorPrime can't style my ass with a gigantic ball of marines while I do this build, then I doubt there's any bioball that's adequate during the time where Chargelots trading for bio is viable...

Do you see where I'm coming from?
You all have opinions on something you haven't tried [[snipped rage that follows]]

I still have problems seeing an early charge killing a bunker with scvs and a siege tank. I could be convinced otherwise with replays on the how and why, but that would take a high masters/GM player crazy enough to try it, and some worthy opponents near his/her skill level. I welcome this kind of pressure with all the other possibilities out there in PvT. Nasty stuff will hit later or weaker if I see chargelots at this stage of the game.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-03 01:31:43
March 03 2020 01:24 GMT
#52
On February 29 2020 04:57 brickrd wrote:
why do you make strategy posts if you can't handle criticism? every time someone critiques your ideas you show absolutely no willingness to accept your premise could be flawed and condescend to everyone. then when people get annoyed with your attitude you tell everyone else the problem is THEIR attitude and start huffing about how you "refuse to talk to them"

it seems like you just refuse to talk to anyone who posts anything other than "yeah man, you're right! you're so smart! i'm going to play your style now!" which is a colossal waste of everyone's time


Upon finding this thread and rereading it, I'm now convinced that OP is actually an amazing troll who has successfully baited everyone into spending way too much time trying to understand how pure chargelots might possibly be viable in PvT. Nobody could seriously fail so comprehensively at understanding minerals, gas, and the idea of resources over time. Or the interaction between melee units and walls.

But who knows, maybe he's actually serious and BabelFish will be the next GSL champion.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
MarianoSC2
Profile Joined June 2015
Slovakia1855 Posts
March 03 2020 10:12 GMT
#53
Lol, wtf is this thread? :D
Top 11: Rogue, Maru, Inno, Zest, Life, sOs, Stats, Dark, soO, Mvp, Classic/Trap/MC/Rain
Arghmyliver
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1077 Posts
March 03 2020 15:17 GMT
#54
OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.

I'm actually kinda curious now, lol.
Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?
Now witness their attempts to fly from tree to tree. Notice they do not so much fly as plummet.
iMrising
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States1099 Posts
March 03 2020 18:17 GMT
#55
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote:
OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.

I'm actually kinda curious now, lol.
Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?

There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm
$O$ | soO
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States677 Posts
March 03 2020 21:32 GMT
#56
I think the biggest issue is banshee openings. If the T opens 1 tax CC, it can be really good, but if they tech they'll be able to scout and decide banshees and holding that is just terrible.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
March 04 2020 14:17 GMT
#57
On March 04 2020 06:32 ThunderJunk wrote:
I think the biggest issue is banshee openings. If the T opens 1 tax CC, it can be really good, but if they tech they'll be able to scout and decide banshees and holding that is just terrible.


How many millennia ago has it been since anyone opened 1 base banshee...i think even OP's awful build would be decent against that
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-04 15:21:03
March 04 2020 15:18 GMT
#58
Reaper FE banshee should be ready by 4:30. About the same time charge should finish assuming he can get enough gas off 1 gas.

Also around that time is also around the timing for a widow mine drop or having the units for a poke with bio.

The OP can't even be called an opener or build as there is no info whatsoever other than it is an auto win and that he somehow has "gigantic roaming packs of expendable chargelots", which btw defies all common sense behind the principles of resource income, that can take out the entire terran army behind walls somehow and he can also deny scouting and scout for everything a terran can do and adapt into...nothing?

I thought this was a parody post of the type of strategy posts that used to be so popular. But then he seemed serious. Like come on, what's the build order? How many gates? How do you adapt to scouting and different builds? There's none of that here.

These sort of "strategy" posts used to be automatically closed for lacking in detail like an actual build order. But I guess standards have to change from lesser activity. That the op has replays showing he is bm is just the icing on the cake.
iloveoof
Profile Joined July 2019
12 Posts
March 04 2020 19:14 GMT
#59
On March 04 2020 03:17 iMrising wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote:
OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.

I'm actually kinda curious now, lol.
Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?

There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm



Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers.
BjoernK
Profile Joined April 2012
194 Posts
March 06 2020 00:48 GMT
#60
On March 05 2020 04:14 iloveoof wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2020 03:17 iMrising wrote:
On March 04 2020 00:17 Arghmyliver wrote:
OP seems very convinced of the build opener. One might even call him zealous.

I'm actually kinda curious now, lol.
Can someone try the build opener in masters/GM and report back?

There's an NA player called Pancakes who does something similar to this and he's masters/gm



Here's a casted game of Pancakes vs. Timorus doing his style. The other games in the series are also great and either use an unorthodox speed void ray style or show the mass zealot style vs. a variety of Terran openers.


I scanned through the vod, however this style is not what the OP was describing. Seems more like 1 gateway into random stuff. Not lots of zealots with charge.
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