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On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles.
Can you explain how those classes went deeper? I didn't actually play vanilla, but my impression from looking at it is that mages did indeed frostbolt until oom, and warlocks did just have 2 buttons.
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On December 05 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Socialization?
yeah standing around in Ironforge spamming LF Healer for 30 minutes was so social.
And when someone left in a dungeon and someone else had to go back to Ironforge to look for a replacement and you sat around for 15 minutes waiting, that was another great time to socialize...
See you had the same experience many people had back in vanilla. The problem stemmed from severely underpopulated servers/factions, and no world chat channel. Rarely do you ever have this problem on a populated server.
Another point I'd like to make regarding that post is that you're picking the exact reason socializing was required to even get gear in the game. After all it is an MMO, so playing with other people is the fundamental part of the game itself. You needed to play with people, add them to your friends list, join a guild, get friends to play etc. After a while you sort of understand which guilds are good, and who the better players are. You actually feel part of a community rather than a name on a queue list.
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Unless you actually socialised while leveling and had a Guild with 60+ people and a friendlist with 20-60 "others". Which was very normal in WoW Classic...
So if you weren't horrible or more important an ass, it wasn't really an Issue?
If you want to complain about something, talk about BG waiting times...
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On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true.
Well I raided vanilla as a mage (and as rogue and priest) so I can say that yes, mage rotation was frostbolts and mana consumables/abilities (mana gems, mana pots, evocation). In MC, you were limited by mana more than anything else on a boss fight and it made no sense to cast anything but frostbolts on the boss, or the occasional arcane missiles on a clearcast proc if you weren't far enough from the boss that you had time to interrupt your current cast to do it.
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Yeah, Vanilla was a more social game.
LFD/LFR/etc. are great time savers, but they're social interactions in the same sense that checking out at a Wal-Mart is a social interaction. You don't care who the cashier is because it's some dumb teenager you'll probably never see again, just don't put the damn eggs under the jug of milk dammit. Similarly, the people LFD/LFR pairs you with are utterly disposable.
The crossrealm nature of the tools is largely "at fault", as a big chunk of what made Vanilla and BC more social was the consistency with which you'd meet people again and again. The people you grouped with mattered because you'd likely end up grouping with them again in the future. You could reasonably be expected to see a name and recognize the player.
There were a lot of other factors as well, but the bottom line was the game generally required a lot more manual social interaction, the necessity thereof meant that players naturally encountered other players they got along with and established social bonds.
The LFG tool is a decent step back in that direction.
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On December 05 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Socialization?
yeah standing around in Ironforge spamming LF Healer for 30 minutes was so social.
And when someone left in a dungeon and someone else had to go back to Ironforge to look for a replacement and you sat around for 15 minutes waiting, that was another great time to socialize...
Your post is funny because you succinctly describe the differences. I'm not saying they are better or worse, but that they are distinct. It seems like since the announcement everyone is arguing over which is better, flaming the opposite opinion etc, without understanding that it's mostly just trade-offs in the end.
You're right, when someone leaves it takes time for a replacement. If you're unlucky or don't know anyone maybe you get screwed and your run is over which is a bummer. Everything takes longer in general.
As for the socialization - that's when you dig into your friends list to try to pull a replacement rather than the queue giving you someone random instantly. This kind of thing is incentive for you to build a network. If you don't need to then there's little reason to.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
The path of least resistance for most of the game (leveling through heroic raiding, just not Mythic) has been to avoid most social contact and i think that's a very bad thing for an MMO in general. It wasn't that way in earlier versions but partially for the wrong reasons
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On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles.
Rose-tinted glasses at their finest.
Yes, there's a lot more depth to Vanilla than people give it credit for.
No, not all the depth you think was there is. I was there, and there were many specs (some entire classes) that were either completely useless or just had little to no depth to them.
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On December 05 2017 01:39 FarmI3oy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Socialization?
yeah standing around in Ironforge spamming LF Healer for 30 minutes was so social.
And when someone left in a dungeon and someone else had to go back to Ironforge to look for a replacement and you sat around for 15 minutes waiting, that was another great time to socialize...
See you had the same experience many people had back in vanilla. The problem stemmed from severely underpopulated servers/factions, and no world chat channel. Rarely do you ever have this problem on a populated server. Another point I'd like to make regarding that post is that you're picking the exact reason socializing was required to even get gear in the game. After all it is an MMO, so playing with other people is the fundamental part of the game itself. You needed to play with people, add them to your friends list, join a guild, get friends to play etc. After a while you sort of understand which guilds are good, and who the better players are. You actually feel part of a community rather than a name on a queue list.
That's still there, you can still join a guild and get friends and 'understand the community'. That hasn't gone away. People just chose to use it less because they are no longer forced to.
There are a lot of trash people online that others would rather not interact with if given the choice. Turns out those few diamonds in the rough that you met and bonded with weren't worth all the other shit.
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The bottom line is Blizzard wasn't wrong to make the QoL changes they've made over the years, the problem is that in doing so players lost most of the vectors that naturally created strong social bonds, and Blizzard has never figured out good replacements.
Moreover, a good chunk of it was also the sheer popularity of the game at the time. Any game is inherently more social when everyone is new to it, and new blood is flooding in.
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On December 05 2017 01:43 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Well I raided vanilla as a mage (and as rogue and priest) so I can say that yes, mage rotation was frostbolts and mana consumables/abilities (mana gems, mana pots, evocation). In MC, you were limited by mana more than anything else on a boss fight and it made no sense to cast anything but frostbolts on the boss, or the occasional arcane missiles on a clearcast proc if you weren't far enough from the boss that you had time to interrupt your current cast to do it.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Serpent-Coil_Braid best trinket ! That accursed hit rating..
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On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles.
I played vanilla and loved it. I am nostalgic for it and am looking forward to giving classic servers a shot.
But you are completely overselling it.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
On December 05 2017 03:28 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles. I played vanilla and loved it. I am nostalgic for it and am looking forward to giving classic servers a shot. But you are completely overselling it.
They have pruned everything to death though
what they've done to hunters and mages feels far worse than removing cat+bear form from resto/balance druids to me.
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On December 05 2017 03:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:28 Duka08 wrote:On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles. I played vanilla and loved it. I am nostalgic for it and am looking forward to giving classic servers a shot. But you are completely overselling it. They have pruned everything to death though what they've done to hunters and mages feels far worse than removing cat+bear form from resto/balance druids to me.
Hey I'm not arguing that their game direction and class design has been good lately lol
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While hunters are ass right now I'm not sure that I could go all the way back to a dead zone and mana pool. Lol
My little brother was "bad" at his dps "rotation" i.e. He clipped the fuck out of his autoshots cuz he couldn't read a swing timer so I wrote a macro for him and bound it to his mousewheel and he then raided all of tbc as the top hunter in his (bad) guild by rolling his mouse wheel furiously...
Edit: also fuck having to feed your pet the right food and shit. Wtf
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
They literally removed traps and melee weapons from legion hunter unless you specced survival
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On December 05 2017 03:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:28 Duka08 wrote:On December 05 2017 01:25 FarmI3oy wrote:
I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles. I played vanilla and loved it. I am nostalgic for it and am looking forward to giving classic servers a shot. But you are completely overselling it. They have pruned everything to death though what they've done to hunters and mages feels far worse than removing cat+bear form from resto/balance druids to me.
What have they done to mages that is so terrible ? I find it extremely refreshing to play compared to what it was like from Vanilla to Cata.
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Antorus hc indeed turned out to be very easy compared to the 2 previous raids. My guild is pretty bad compared to other mythic guilds (only barely killed maiden last raid) and we just breezed through it.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
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On December 05 2017 02:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 01:39 FarmI3oy wrote:On December 05 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:
Socialization?
yeah standing around in Ironforge spamming LF Healer for 30 minutes was so social.
And when someone left in a dungeon and someone else had to go back to Ironforge to look for a replacement and you sat around for 15 minutes waiting, that was another great time to socialize...
See you had the same experience many people had back in vanilla. The problem stemmed from severely underpopulated servers/factions, and no world chat channel. Rarely do you ever have this problem on a populated server. Another point I'd like to make regarding that post is that you're picking the exact reason socializing was required to even get gear in the game. After all it is an MMO, so playing with other people is the fundamental part of the game itself. You needed to play with people, add them to your friends list, join a guild, get friends to play etc. After a while you sort of understand which guilds are good, and who the better players are. You actually feel part of a community rather than a name on a queue list. That's still there, you can still join a guild and get friends and 'understand the community'. That hasn't gone away. People just chose to use it less because they are no longer forced to. There are a lot of trash people online that others would rather not interact with if given the choice. Turns out those few diamonds in the rough that you met and bonded with weren't worth all the other shit.
People say this kind of stuff all the time.
"It was only there because Blizzard forced it".
Yea, that's how a game works. Every game ever made creates a particular system to promote particular human behaviors. There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't think that the old way was better than now or vis versa (there are clearly a massive number of QoL changes since Vanilla), but it's indisputable that Vanilla and TBC were significantly better games from a social standpoint, and the way that this occurred isn't "bad" or "artificial"; it's how any game ever promotes desired human behavior by mechanical design.
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EPT
