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On December 03 2017 11:11 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 11:05 .AK wrote:On December 01 2017 17:55 BrTarolg wrote:
does anyone in here play vanilla?
i've recently been levelling a lock on a private server (nighthaven fwiw) for fun, and i'm having a huge blast I recently came back to Lights Hope since I decided I wasn't going to wait for Classic. I have a fresh 60 warr and a smattering of other characters on Horde. What was your /played to 60? I'm excited to come back but worried it will feel tedious and dead. I'm going to roll pally so autoattacking to 60 is intimidating.
Probably around 9 days. However, I got to 60 with pretty much 300 mine/bs which probably took a solid day of that. There is a guide running around that did a 0-60 a hunter in ~4.5 days.
If you like leveling, as I do, I would recommend it. Definitely more of an experience then leveling on retail is. You will have your rough spots but it's alright, from what I understand on LH Ally get ganked more. If you roll someone let me know, I have been wanting to make an Ally char.
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On December 03 2017 09:07 Duka08 wrote: Note that most people here agree with you. Bosses were easier. Doesn't mean raiding was easy. Don't conflate the two.
How is that conflating when raids have bosses and bosses are raids? I made an analytic proposition about what made killing bosses hard in vanilla. Compared to live they are substantially more difficult because they require coordinating double the amount of people, not getting spanked in the open world on the way to the raid and killing the unconscionable amount of trash over and over again if you wipe.
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On December 03 2017 11:57 FarmI3oy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 09:07 Duka08 wrote: Note that most people here agree with you. Bosses were easier. Doesn't mean raiding was easy. Don't conflate the two. How is that conflating when raids have bosses and bosses are raids? I made an analytic proposition about what made killing bosses hard in vanilla. Compared to live they are substantially more difficult because they require coordinating double the amount of people, not getting spanked in the open world on the way to the raid and killing the unconscionable amount of trash over and over again if you wipe.
Are you talking about as if they were done now, today, on a private server for example? Or are you comparing live to the state of the game and player base 13 years ago?
Back during vanilla all those things you discussed were a huge headache, and the player base was much less prepared and more naive (imo) than your average player today. Therefore raiding was a pain in the ass, and even mechanically simple stuff like MC would take much longer than expected and be a logistical nightmare. I think most people as I said, including myself, would agree with you on that.
The original comment that sparked discussion referred specifically to the boss fights being harder. Which I (and others) would argue against. Unless specifically referring to the numerous gear checks where everyone had to farm resist gear zzz. If you're saying that those raids run nowadays, when the classic servers launch and we have modern addons and online resources, will be as difficult as they were back during true vanilla, I would disagree substantially.
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Raiding back in Vanilla wasn't as much mechanical skill and awareness as it was time invested in gear and consumables. Hell, well into BC the best Warlock spec only used 2 buttons to do damage. The hardest part of most raid encounters was managed by Discursive.
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Vanilla mage, frostbolt until oom or boss dead. From AQ and onwards, fireball until oom or dead. Complex rotations.
Oh and sometimes you had to just decurse.
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On December 03 2017 13:10 daemir wrote:
Vanilla mage, frostbolt until oom or boss dead. From AQ and onwards, fireball until oom or dead. Complex rotations.
Oh and sometimes you had to just decurse.
And PvP was a macro for ZHC/ToEP/PoM/Pyro
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On December 03 2017 13:12 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 13:10 daemir wrote:
Vanilla mage, frostbolt until oom or boss dead. From AQ and onwards, fireball until oom or dead. Complex rotations.
Oh and sometimes you had to just decurse. And PvP was a macro for ZHC/ToEP/PoM/Pyro Sick crits for the PvP vids though!
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i would definitely say that for me vanilla is not really about raiding, that's just something to do at the end
the levelling experience is by far the best part
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Yeah, i didn't raid in vanilla or know literally anybody that raided until i was like 500 hours deep into the game. Even through TBC-Cata the pre-level-cap stuff was a lot more important than it is now
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Well, I did since almost the beginning of EU WoW, so rest assured when I say the complexity of raiding did not come from intricate boss designs or the skill at playing your class because there was basicly none. It was all coming from the logistical nightmare of herding 40 cats towards the same direction with barely any workable addons, people who didn't know any better and generally the expectations of a raider being super low on today's standards and having to face with lovely design decisions like 45 minute trash respawn timers when your corpse run back after a wipe would generally take you over 5 minutes of just running because the graveyard would be across the whole zone where your raid instance is (blackrock mountain, silithus) and on top of that horribly long run inside the dungeon especially when you wipe on the later bosses (MC, BWL, AQ both versions, Naxx). ZG was like the only one where you didn't spend that long time to wipe and run back.
But yea, I'd say the biggest factors being archaic design and people simply not knowing any better. When you have to fill a roster of 40 people and you have to teach even silly basics to every new recruits that you would easily take for granted now...I mean you had to teach rotation to some of these people. Rotation! Frostbolt infinitum and you had to teach them how to do it! Well there was the mana gems, mana pots and evocation timings, but really, you just hammer frostbolt...and you had to teach people to do that :D
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I was a raider in a top10 guild for most of Vanilla and TBC, and what you guys completely forget about, because it is a nonfactor nowadays, is that the most challenging part in beating encounters was not learning how to beat the mechanics, but figuring out what those mechanics acutally were. No dungeon journals, no video guides, no "it's like mechanic x from boss y in Wotlk". You went there without addons, without guides and most of them time without any spoilers, and it took hours, sometimes days just to grasp the mechanics. Unfortunately this aspect of raiding, which was one of the most fun/rewarding, has forever been lost.
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You're right, figuring out the bosses is now done by a small amount of people during PTR and by the time the bosses hit live you are expected to watch at least 3 guides on them. I still dont exactly know how onyxia aggro worked tbh.
But i cant really say i miss it. With the amount of abilities bosses have these days it would take a long time to figure out a boss and be a nightmare to look up some stuff without the dungeon journal.
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On December 03 2017 20:37 Warri wrote:
You're right, figuring out the bosses is now done by a small amount of people during PTR and by the time the bosses hit live you are expected to watch at least 3 guides on them. I still dont exactly know how onyxia aggro worked tbh.
But i cant really say i miss it. With the amount of abilities bosses have these days it would take a long time to figure out a boss and be a nightmare to look up some stuff without the dungeon journal.
I mean in fairness. Most of my 3 day raid guild barely looks at anything in advance since Normal and HC gets released early anyway so there isnt much of a. I mean some people do but its no obligation.
If you werent world first racing or whatever (which alottt more people did back then) the information made its way out in terms of what the abilities do.
The addon limitation is a thing ofc. But the complexity of the encounters has scaled with that tremendously.
+ Show Spoiler +
We look at what they do from the dungeon journal and thats about it. And someone whose done the research will give a quick overview and then you just deal. We also experiment with alot of stuff that turns out wont work which we wouldve probably known if we watched the test videos and all but honestly that makes the game alot more fun.
It also means we find ways to deal with things that work for "us" later on mythic that actually saves time. I am not saying we dont study stuff for mythic. We do.,But for HC and Normal we just take a sighter and deal with it as it happens. Hence my comment about HC Argus. We hardly knew what he did and he just sorta rolled over. No one knew about the damage types on the Algalons, and like 2 people knew about the ress mechanic. I watched like the first 2 mins of the fb and read the dungeon journel. Im kinda quit raiding after Gul'dan but even with the a pretty laid back schedule we tend to fall in a World top 100-150 on most tiers. That having been said these are core top world top 20-50 raiders from vanilla to around Cata so the skill cap is pretty high in that respect.
+ Show Spoiler [Onyxia] +
Onyxia wasnt all that complicated. Well it was relatively complicated but its not that complicated at all now.
Taunt immune and does an aggro reduction ability on tank and the fear (which by extension caused egg pops). That was the jist of the difficulty.
Resets aggro after airphase so if you over did your dots/ranged dps she would run down and slap you. What was that thing again uhhh KTM (I think Omen came later) was your friend and if you respected it (although for Onyxia you had to over respect it to be safe) there were no issues.
Was probably the least stressful thing for dps players who werent idiots. Sadly most DPS players were idiots. Most of the real leg work was for the tank *wait for my sunders ffs* and then later the healers when the fears would break out.
As a mage it was the dullest shit imaginable. Frostb FB FB FB FB FB oops threat. WAND WAND WAND WAND. mana pot, evocate. Repeat.
Im sure other classes had similarish tedium to deal with. That having been said 11 years ago it was like. WOAAHHH THIS IS SO COOL! And I find I had an unimaginable amount of patience back then.
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Yeah but what was the thing about MOAR dots or she breathes. Sometimes she did sometimes she didnt. And if theres aggro reset when she lands why not go all out dps while shes flying.
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On December 03 2017 20:37 Warri wrote:
You're right, figuring out the bosses is now done by a small amount of people during PTR and by the time the bosses hit live you are expected to watch at least 3 guides on them. I still dont exactly know how onyxia aggro worked tbh.
But i cant really say i miss it. With the amount of abilities bosses have these days it would take a long time to figure out a boss and be a nightmare to look up some stuff without the dungeon journal.
It wouldn't work period. Without the appropriate addons most of todays mythic bosses would be unkillable I think. My point is that you cannot compare the difficulty level of today's bosses with Vanilla or even TBC bosses by simply comparing mechanics. UI, information availability, threat management, mana management, 40man raiding, novelty of mechanics/gameplay are what made bosses difficult, nowdays blizzard are forced to design encounters in a certain way, because mechanics and to a small extent item level and class distribution are about the only factors that are left to adjust the difficulty level of a raid.
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On December 03 2017 21:46 Warri wrote:
Yeah but what was the thing about MOAR dots or she breathes. Sometimes she did sometimes she didnt. And if theres aggro reset when she lands why not go all out dps while shes flying.
There was a bit of time between the aggro reset and her actual landing and being attackable by the tank. So to much dps in that bit and she would run over and smack you in the face.
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On December 03 2017 21:46 Warri wrote:
Yeah but what was the thing about MOAR dots or she breathes. Sometimes she did sometimes she didnt. And if theres aggro reset when she lands why not go all out dps while shes flying.
You went ham on her and then slowed down near the end of the phase. (hence the wand wand).
The breath was totally random iirc. But people had it in their heads that they had to push phase asap on a timer. Or that if they didnt push a certain percentage. or Whatever. But whatever you did you had to slow down the dps near the end of phase push because dots rolling hard on her meant she would run at you before the tank got a chance to pick her up or the positioning would get wonky and she would tail swipe a fuck ton of people or people would get out of position trying to avoid the swipe and get feared into eggs etc etc. It was more about control than anything. Healer Mana was a bit of a timer with weaker gear also.
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I did almost all my raiding in TBC btw, so that's my main point of reference for raiding
Kael thas was such a fucking struggle lol
Getting BT attuned was the most satisfying thing ever
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I think people are in for a big surprise with vanilla. The depth and socialization in that version was so rich that people are still learning how to play it today.
And to those who are saying that Mage rotation is frostbolt until oom or the warlock rotation is only two buttons.... Neither of those are true. Those classes go much deeper than that in a raid environment. Class depth, fantasy and raid utility were traded away for harder class rotations and mechanically "fun" gameplay during WoD. Personally I preferred the former design principles.
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Socialization?
yeah standing around in Ironforge spamming LF Healer for 30 minutes was so social.
And when someone left in a dungeon and someone else had to go back to Ironforge to look for a replacement and you sat around for 15 minutes waiting, that was another great time to socialize...
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EPT
