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On December 06 2017 08:21 Cyro wrote:
Nerfing the crap out of maw so that the path of least resistance to play the game wasn't to spam only maw 200 times was definitely the right thing to do IMO.
People didn't want to run other dungeons or content for AP - otherwise they would have just gone and done it instead rather than spamming maws - but they were forced to do so after those hotfixes; as a result both the health of the game and player enjoyment were improved significantly IMO.
People are highly driven to follow the path of least resistance especially in an MMO and it doesn't neccesarily allign with player enjoyment or good game design, forcing them to match up or at least come close together can often bring huge improvements.
You keep bringing the same path of least resistance bit up, it was a reasonablish minor piece of evidence the first time. Now you squeezed the life out of it.
200 times Maw, game sucks for friendship. Still dont get it. I dont recall this being a huge driver for many people I played with. I would take a gander that perhaps while you felt compelled to do this. Many also werent. I agree that it was bad not just for the cooperative aspect of gameplay. It was just bad period, how this affects the culture wholesale is beyond me still.
The logic isnt jiving, why would a casual "most of the world" player farm ap so hard as to spam maw in the first place?" AP wasnt such a big deal if you werent min maxing. And mind you, if I am spamming. I am already in a farm group and therefore heavily inclined toward socializing.. hmmmm...
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Btw we have (world-)quests that are so hard that you need to socialize. You know what the wow players of 2017 did? worldquest group finder.
The invasions are so hard you need to socialize for them, cant solo them. You dont spam in tradechat, you use worldquest group finder.
Fuck if LFG didnt exist these days we would have a worlddungeon group finder addon for it.
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^
Which highlights that the real "issue" is cross server play.
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
You can't even do basic stuff because of the prevalence of it. I've tried to do some invasions while forming m+ groups or in an LFR queue recently and i stand there alone in the rift, 20 people walk into it 1 by 1 and then phase off to some other server leaving only me there with unsoloable content because every single person is joining groups on other servers even when i cleared the first 2 stages by myself.
The UI's are also messy and a pain to use at the best of times, both stock game and any half-broken-by-blizzard addon.
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9/11 Now.. This is starting to be a lot of bosses for the " US plays around on first day " tradition :<
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
Something is seriously wrong if Limit is a world first contender 
I doubt it'll take the EU monsters as long to clear even if 11/11m goes down with a huge US head start advantage
insane comps going into some of those kills
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zRoQ0A4.png)
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yeah that Coven of Shiavarra comp is one of the worst example of class stacking to date.
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On December 06 2017 10:03 Warri wrote:
Btw we have (world-)quests that are so hard that you need to socialize. You know what the wow players of 2017 did? worldquest group finder.
The invasions are so hard you need to socialize for them, cant solo them. You dont spam in tradechat, you use worldquest group finder.
Fuck if LFG didnt exist these days we would have a worlddungeon group finder addon for it.
not able to solo does not equal the need to socialize, at least not in a meaningful manner, which is exactly what people complain about when talking about the lack of socializing in WoW. You might as well replace those people you do quests or invasions with with bots, you wouldn't notice a difference 90% of the time. You don't talk to anyone, you don't interact with them at all most of the time. You just hit the same mobs and disband afterwards.
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On December 06 2017 14:34 Noocta wrote:
yeah that Coven of Shiavarra comp is one of the worst example of class stacking to date.
That fight is pretty melee unfriendly though so it at least makes sense. Still don't like how some fights are such giant swings in classes like this.
I also think Blizzard really really missed the mark on Antorus if in under 20 hours 9 bosses are dead. Like thats under 10-20 pulls for any specific boss.
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World First races are funny, like, it's literally 1 guild at 9/11, and plenty of guilds in the top 10 that are 5/10. It's not like a world 20th guild is also 9/11. Especially when the top guilds have access to any raid comp they'll ever need.
But yeah, the world race has always been about like, the last 2 or so bosses since like, Wrath?
But to digress to the previous discussion, I wish sharding was way more strict when its not a launch day. Like, I don't like the fact people can zoom in and out of servers through addons and the stuff, it makes the world feel smaller and less personal.
I do think theres merit to the conversation about the game being way less social, but in a lot of ways its gotten a lot better with Legion with Mythic+ and world quests. The framework is there, at least.
Cyro is absolutely right, good game design and socialization is all about restrictions, difficulty and inconveniences, when gamers, especially people who play MMOs, are absolutely obsessed with efficiency.
A lot of the great socialization I've had in MMOs is because my goals were difficult to pursue, and I needed people to accomplish my goals. Like imagine if we played an MMO where death was super serious, like if you released you lost xp, could delevel, and you'd respawn 2 zones away. Having someone come out to rez you, that guy is going to feel like a hero because he's helping you out, and you're going to be so happy someone is saving you a tremendous amount of heartache.
I'm not sure if thats a good example of what i want to convey, but thats something to consider.
I do hope we get pristine servers though. I think everyone on the planet has given up hope but me on them.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
EU big boys 8/11 already. Crazy.
Will Argus survive before the weekend is the question im wondering!
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
EU guys cleared twice as fast as Limit til equal progress (9 bosses in 7 hours instead of ~14)
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in other news, Method > EU > NA
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You don't even need 80 days to clear a raid now? WoW has become so casual. /s
User was warned for this post (edit: meme has apparently been edited out post-warning) -mod
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On December 07 2017 11:20 Stancel wrote:
in other news, Method > EU > NA
exorsus are still underlooked by people. These guys are very good, and they put in so crazy work.
I'm a big fan of what they do for everyone mod wise too. Eexorsus Raid Tool is such a good addon.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Argus is so dead today as well, rumor was it was easier than Aggramar or at least everything is known about that phase so after an hour or two of going through it for a top guild like Method should be killable.
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On December 07 2017 17:47 Pandemona wrote:
Argus is so dead today as well, rumor was it was easier than Aggramar or at least everything is known about that phase so after an hour or two of going through it for a top guild like Method should be killable.
I'd be surprised if Blizzard didn't ninja buff it, like they did with Heroic LK when guilds got to 11/12 super fast.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Maybe who knows how they want to play it. Guy on mmo-c made a good point here;
They were vocally happy with Nighthold having 2000 guilds clearing Gul'dan cutting edge and vocally unhappy with only 800 guilds clearing Kil'Jaeden. It seems to me they want a certain number of participating guilds and clears for mythic content fot it to remain being a use of both development time and the overall health of the high end difficulty.
Now not saying this is fact or anything but i mean he has a point with Gul'Dan was killed by a lot of guilds and it was 800 that killed KJ which was nerfed into the ground in the last few weeks where most of the kills came into effect. So with how this raid is playing out so far...seems might have lowered it a bit to much. Still might ninja buff it like you said to make it last at least a week.
I too think that should happen because why would you make a raid with these ilvl 1000 super trinkets which are like the legendary rings from last expansion which buff everyone for it to be killed without them or without a maxed out raid full of them xD seems kinda weird
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Don't forget the insane amount of time and effort these guilds put into raiding.
Split raids means they have effectively been farming Heroic for 7-8 weeks and thats before you consider the skill difference which is significant.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
But alot of guilds in the top 500 maybe even top 1000 do split raids to an extent. But that still can't be reason this raid is pretty much over after day 1, there is no way. Scrubbusters are a top guild in EU they raid "casually" or "normally" probably better wording 6 nights a week on progression all after EU work time and they are 7/11 first raid too.
Oh well we won't know until world 1st happens and Method start telling us if the raid is a bit easier than the previous ones. I know Method didn't do as many splits as Exorsus did at all as the Method players said so. Also "some" Method players were at DHW during heroic splits so they missed 3-4 days of split raiding.
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EPT
