On April 29 2015 23:33 OtherWorld wrote: Dude, the manliest race doesn't complain. Zergs will adapt and Zergs will prevail.
Woah woah woah. I play Zerg and I'm manly and all.. but it's hard to argue with this.
Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race.
On April 29 2015 23:33 OtherWorld wrote: Dude, the manliest race doesn't complain. Zergs will adapt and Zergs will prevail.
Woah woah woah. I play Zerg and I'm manly and all.. but it's hard to argue with this.
Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race.
"write up" might be a bit of an understatement. Try something like "textbook".
On April 29 2015 23:33 OtherWorld wrote: Dude, the manliest race doesn't complain. Zergs will adapt and Zergs will prevail.
Woah woah woah. I play Zerg and I'm manly and all.. but it's hard to argue with this.
Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race.
The manliest race complains every time one of them dies to blink stalker/force fields, but when Protosses rek Terrans with bs you all just laugh and call it whining. :S
On April 29 2015 23:33 OtherWorld wrote: Dude, the manliest race doesn't complain. Zergs will adapt and Zergs will prevail.
Woah woah woah. I play Zerg and I'm manly and all.. but it's hard to argue with this.
Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race.
Once? Two of the longest articles ever featured on TL were Terran balance whines.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I think zergs are still winning a decent bit. Korean zergs might utilize the new swarmhost better than the old since they usually did not favor the turtle style gameplay.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain.
The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day.
Have people used flying locust since the patch ? I only watch SPL and SCW and i never saw a SH (well... i saw one in a life match but it was a missclick).
On April 30 2015 00:08 insitelol wrote: quit this pathitic whining. tons of zergs never ever used SH and still managed to top WCS ranks.
When you eliminate one tech path, the race becomes more predictable and therefore much easier to beat. That's the problem. These days almost all zergs are going quick hives for viper or upgraded lings into ultra/infestor/viper. There is little mystery.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain.
yeah, but both of those games as well as this frustration roach build of life were all part of Catallena being the most broken ZvP map since Deadalus 1.0. Hydra/ling is fine to defend the blinkfield combo on a normal map - it's a bit like TvZ where you have to defend but you don't get an advantage from holding it. If he really tries to press into you, you should be able to defend if you play well and then he will be underprepared for Vipers and later on Broodlords. If he falls back and transitions properly, the game is just kind of even.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain.
The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day.
mea culpa, it was actually burrow roaches + hydras losing to half the supply of blink stalkers, sentries and an immortal
the game where he doubled Protoss army supply with hydra/ling was the 1 vs Rain
I don't argue that blink stalkers are too good vs roach/hydra (but they still can fight it, given the control, as showcased by Parting), but that hydra/ling, roach/hydra or roach/ling doesn't "rek" it. And yes, you can stop 2-base all-ins with just more units, but that's true for anything. The real strength of +2 blink is early 3rd bases that give Protoss a very good midgame setup.
edit: obviously Big J is right about the problem being exaggarated by Catallena's architecture, but I think it still exists on most of the modern maps to a lesser extent. After all Life did go 2base burrow for most of his GSL play offs run and so did other Zergs for some time.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain.
The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day.
I don't argue that blink stalkers are too good vs roach/hydra (but they still can fight it, given the control, as showcased by Parting), but that hydra/ling, roach/hydra or roach/ling doesn't "rek" it. And yes, you can stop 2-base all-ins with just more units, but that's true for anything. The real strength of +2 blink is early 3rd bases that give Protoss a very good midgame setup.
edit: obviously Big J is right about the problem being exaggarated by Cattalena's architecture, but I think it still exists on most of the modern maps to a lesser extent. After all Life did go 2base burrow for most of his GSL play offs run and so did other Zergs for some time.
Honestly, there isn't much point to watching games on maps which aren't used for tournament play and were in an old patch. Plus it's a 20:00 game.
edit: I did fast forward to the attack in second VOD. Attacking into a building wall + photon overcharge is always tricky as Zerg. You should expect the defender to always have the advantage.
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess.
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH.
My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio.
roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it
First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want.
It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol
hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra.
As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really...
Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result.
1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss
2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss
3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that?
4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss
5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg.
6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army.
7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in.
8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg.
TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers.
I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain.
The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day.
but you never said Roach hydra right?
Anyway it'll prob be a couple of weeks until protoss and terran figure out that all they have to do is to turtle to deathball comps while lightly pressuring Z and winrates in ZvT and ZvP should begin to plummet.
On April 29 2015 23:20 Elentos wrote: The fact that people are only now complaining like this about blink stalker/sentry despite that being an important part of the meta quite a while before the swarm host patch baffles me. Rather, complain about late game or something.
It wasn't ( and is not) an issue in itself. It's the powerful and safe transitions it allows now that are a problem. If winrates for zerg get too bad, we can just make every map like polar night or merry go and the issue will be gone
EPT
