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PostNationalism
35 Posts
several games i watched the zerg outplayed protoss and still lost because roach hydra sucks so so bad. hell ragnarak was ahead SO MUCH but because his only viable option is a broodlord rush.. GG (that said he could have microd better.. but.. cmon) anyway not trying to make this a total balance whine, im actually interested in the numbers, how badly are zerg struggling lately?? (nor not at all?) | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH. My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess. Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH. My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio. roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it | ||
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PostNationalism
35 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:27 Matt` wrote: roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it yea the games today really showed how pathetic roach hydra is vs well controlled blink stalker/sentry .. and as the other guy said, the lategame must be even worse than the midgame.. anyway the statistics would be more telling than our anecdata | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:27 Matt` wrote: roach hydra doesn't kill blink stalker sentry easily, once they reach a critical mass roach hydra does virtually nothing to it First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want. It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:31 TRaFFiC wrote: First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want. It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol well, you kinda wrote roach ling/roach hydra though  anyway, blink stalker sentry is a very viable composition that opens up massive timings on 3 base and transitions very well into templar tech. with good control roach hydra can't touch a blink stalker sentry army (while heads-on it obviously crushes it, but that's what FFs are all about). without the fear of SH, you can delay colossus tech for a very long time because you want the inevitable Vipers to be as useless as possible (and abducts on your first 1 or 2 colossi can lose you any game) | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:31 TRaFFiC wrote: First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want. It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol roach hydra ling/roach hydra it doesnt matter, once there is a critical mass you will not kill them. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess. Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH. My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio. Uh...no. Blink stalkers are really strong, especially with the Protosses like Zest which are really good at using blink stakers. They can practically go up to ling hydra Zergs and kill them without using sentries. Blink Stalkers combined with sentries have such massive survivability. Twice the effective HP of Hydras, with the survivability and versatility of blink and quick recharging haf of HP known as shields means that it can be very difficult to punish or kill blink stalkers till you got a way ameriolate them with tunnelling roaches or infestors, since you now can't use swarmhosts to help defend against them. Also lol at this: On April 29 2015 22:23 TRaFFiC wrote: The resources to find them are out there for everyone's use. Liquidpedia and aligulac are good places to start I guess. Actually, blink stalker/sentry is a great way for protoss to lose. Roach ling/Roach Hydra takes down blink stalker pretty easily. It's when the Protoss sits back and gets that huge death ball (Colossus/void ray or other) that it becomes much harder to win in a long game without SH. My guess is it will take some more time for the win rates to dip since P and T players have yet to fully adapt to the no sh zergs. I mean there are still tons of Terrans playing bio. On April 29 2015 22:31 TRaFFiC wrote: First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want. It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol Bare faced lying lol. | ||
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Penev
28524 Posts
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SC2Towelie
United States561 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:54 TRaFFiC wrote: I didn't watch PL but feel free to link vods. I watch sc2 24/7 and haven't seen this issue. When the Protoss wins with a stalker\sentry timing it's usually because the Zerg's early game didn't go well or he would have the necessary units to defend. well, it's not massively broken or anything but an already strong composition basically got a buff by removing the one way (ie sh switch) to catch the bs/sentry player totally off guard. | ||
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Elentos
55570 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:31 TRaFFiC wrote: First, I said Roach ling/Hydra ling. Second, Hydras destroy stalkers. Stalkers are a low dps crap unit. You want zealots and colossus really vs hydra, not stalkers. Go ahead and link pro games if you want. It comes down to the zerg getting a good economy vs whatever 2 base timing is coming. I haven''t heard the words "imba" and "blink stalkers" in the same sentence since Hongun http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HongUn . lol hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra. As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really... | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On April 29 2015 22:32 Paljas wrote: http://aligulac.com/periods/135/ How is it possible that Protoss has 42% vs terran and 47% vs Zerg, yet it is the "leading race by 3%"? By the way, no one used Swarmhosts to counter Mass blink stalkers. | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Usually you see Roach Ling or Hydra Ling kill the Sentry-BS-Ball or lose the game. That was the fact before the SW-Patch and Swarm Hosts didnt help in that situation, because a low SH count did not help at all, if the protoss attacked at the right timing. The only thing that changed is the 3 base Sentry-Coloss Turtle Style and all other defensive styles. When BS-Sentry is used offensive of 2 bases, you still have to kill it with roach ling or hydra ling, just like 4 weeks ago. Swarm Hosts come to late or to little for that. When you say protoss controll should be decent, just use decent zerg control. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:36 Barrin wrote: Woah woah woah. I play Zerg and I'm manly and all.. but it's hard to argue with this. Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
P.S. Watch the Parting vs Hydra Gfinity finals and you'll see what how much old Swarm Hosts help when you're against Parting. | ||
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Roadog
Canada1670 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:38 Ej_ wrote: Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race. "write up" might be a bit of an understatement. Try something like "textbook". | ||
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Elentos
55570 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:38 Ej_ wrote: Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race. The manliest race complains every time one of them dies to blink stalker/force fields, but when Protosses rek Terrans with bs you all just laugh and call it whining. :S | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:38 Ej_ wrote: Terrans once had a write up on how they were losing every tournament that wasn't won by Taeja and how the game was unfair to them. Probably the most crying race. Once? Two of the longest articles ever featured on TL were Terran balance whines. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:21 Ej_ wrote: hydra/ling can't do anything vs blink stalkers if Protoss' control is decent. If you want actual vods, watch Life vs herO on Catallena, Life vs Rain on Catallena (from the top of my head) or any other high level ZvP (and I mean high level, GSL ro16 high) where the Zerg tries a hydra/ling attack vs blink stalkers. Life's semifinal and final of the last GSL are a good example of how blink stalker based armies can trade vs roach hydra. As for the games of today, I didn't catch the ZvPs, but Parting has the best control in the world and him beating anything with blink stalkers shouldn't surprise anyone really... Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result. 1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss 2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss 3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that? 4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss 5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg. 6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army. 7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in. 8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg. TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers. | ||
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:52 TRaFFiC wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rBcmP6SOxE Life vs Hero on Catellena is the most OBVIOUS example of the early game going badly and zerg losing the game as a result. 1) Nexus first vs pool first >favors toss 2) 5:00 gas for zerg with no third vs Nexus first > hugely favors toss 3) 6:00 lair + third gas > this is insanity. who does that? 4)8:00 third for zerg while Protoss leads in workers 45-42 >hugely favors toss 5) Burrow+ roach speed + 12 roaches before droning third >this destroys your eco as Z unless you do critical dmg. 6) Burrow movement + hydra range + hive while at 100 supply and having practically no units on the field. Multiple tech paths with no army. 7) 65 drones + 6 gas vs 45 probe toss > failure to recognize all in. 8) 11:30 toss positions himself with sentries between the ramps off third and natural. He can block off either ramp and it's 100% gg. TLDR This game had nothing to do with blink stalkers. I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On April 30 2015 00:01 Ej_ wrote: I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain. The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On April 30 2015 00:08 insitelol wrote: quit this pathitic whining. tons of zergs never ever used SH and still managed to top WCS ranks. When you eliminate one tech path, the race becomes more predictable and therefore much easier to beat. That's the problem. These days almost all zergs are going quick hives for viper or upgraded lings into ultra/infestor/viper. There is little mystery. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 30 2015 00:01 Ej_ wrote: I wasn't talking about this game, they played previous to that back when Life wasn't frustrated enough to try things like 2 base burrow roaches. I actually said hydra/ling and they did play a game where Life did a hydra ling timing, was doubling the Protoss supply and still lost to FF and blink because herO just defended until he got a collossus out. Same thing happened against Rain. yeah, but both of those games as well as this frustration roach build of life were all part of Catallena being the most broken ZvP map since Deadalus 1.0. Hydra/ling is fine to defend the blinkfield combo on a normal map - it's a bit like TvZ where you have to defend but you don't get an advantage from holding it. If he really tries to press into you, you should be able to defend if you play well and then he will be underprepared for Vipers and later on Broodlords. If he falls back and transitions properly, the game is just kind of even. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 30 2015 00:06 TRaFFiC wrote: The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day. mea culpa, it was actually burrow roaches + hydras losing to half the supply of blink stalkers, sentries and an immortal the game where he doubled Protoss army supply with hydra/ling was the 1 vs Rain I don't argue that blink stalkers are too good vs roach/hydra (but they still can fight it, given the control, as showcased by Parting), but that hydra/ling, roach/hydra or roach/ling doesn't "rek" it. And yes, you can stop 2-base all-ins with just more units, but that's true for anything. The real strength of +2 blink is early 3rd bases that give Protoss a very good midgame setup. edit: obviously Big J is right about the problem being exaggarated by Catallena's architecture, but I think it still exists on most of the modern maps to a lesser extent. After all Life did go 2base burrow for most of his GSL play offs run and so did other Zergs for some time. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:29 KingAlphard wrote: How is it possible that Protoss has 42% vs terran and 47% vs Zerg, yet it is the "leading race by 3%"? By the way, no one used Swarmhosts to counter Mass blink stalkers. Maybe the "leading race" is in numbers ? P is overall losing vs other races but more P qualify in tournaments. Just a guess though. | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
On April 30 2015 00:19 Ej_ wrote: mea culpa, it was actually burrow roaches + hydras losing to half the supply of blink stalkers, sentries and an immortal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhAJs0zoMLY the game where he doubled Protoss army supply with hydra/ling was the 1 vs Rain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZrBOpA36kc I don't argue that blink stalkers are too good vs roach/hydra (but they still can fight it, given the control, as showcased by Parting), but that hydra/ling, roach/hydra or roach/ling doesn't "rek" it. And yes, you can stop 2-base all-ins with just more units, but that's true for anything. The real strength of +2 blink is early 3rd bases that give Protoss a very good midgame setup. edit: obviously Big J is right about the problem being exaggarated by Cattalena's architecture, but I think it still exists on most of the modern maps to a lesser extent. After all Life did go 2base burrow for most of his GSL play offs run and so did other Zergs for some time. Honestly, there isn't much point to watching games on maps which aren't used for tournament play and were in an old patch. Plus it's a 20:00 game. edit: I did fast forward to the attack in second VOD. Attacking into a building wall + photon overcharge is always tricky as Zerg. You should expect the defender to always have the advantage. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On April 30 2015 00:06 TRaFFiC wrote: The main complaint in this thread is the "critical mass" of stalker/sentry beating zergs. Of course with colossus, you will rek hydras. Go ahead and link the games. You can talk theory all day. but you never said Roach hydra right?  Anyway it'll prob be a couple of weeks until protoss and terran figure out that all they have to do is to turtle to deathball comps while lightly pressuring Z and winrates in ZvT and ZvP should begin to plummet. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:20 Elentos wrote: The fact that people are only now complaining like this about blink stalker/sentry despite that being an important part of the meta quite a while before the swarm host patch baffles me. Rather, complain about late game or something. It wasn't ( and is not) an issue in itself. It's the powerful and safe transitions it allows now that are a problem. If winrates for zerg get too bad, we can just make every map like polar night or merry go and the issue will be gone  | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:38 ZAiNs wrote: Yeah that's why Parting just about 2-1d Dark and 2-0d Ragnarok! Balance! P.S. Watch the Parting vs Hydra Gfinity finals and you'll see what how much old Swarm Hosts help when you're against Parting. But SH imba!!! Free win vs better players,no? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 29 2015 23:33 OtherWorld wrote: Dude, the manliest race doesn't complain. Zergs will adapt and Zergs will prevail. Look, it's alright to call Zerg the weakest race, but it is certainly NOT manly :D. | ||
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PostNationalism
35 Posts
PvZ tourney record today is 5-0.. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
The reason why Zergs are losing a lot is because they have the most substantial change in terms of mid-late game, so it's very possible to see Zergs struggling. So, let's give it some time before we start complaining. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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juleharen
Norway298 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12435 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13994 Posts
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On April 30 2015 02:02 juleharen wrote: Looks like showtime didn't read the memo. Wouldn't be the first time a foreigner didn't get the memo on how to play. | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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