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NFL 2015 Season - Page 80

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andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
September 03 2015 17:22 GMT
#1581
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 03 2015 18:01 GMT
#1582
On September 03 2015 23:36 y0su wrote:
so, who drafted based on Brady being able to play?

I picked him up relatively early thinking that he might win the appeal, but knowing that I could get someone competent to cover the first four games.

Anyway, I don't even like the Patriots, but suck it, Goodell.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 03 2015 18:03 GMT
#1583
On September 04 2015 01:30 Sermokala wrote:
The whole idea that the NFL thought that "more probable then not" level of evidence would hold up in court is baffling. Roger should be fired for this whole mess.

More probable than not is generally the legal standard in civil cases, so I wouldn't expect any changes. I'm looking forward to reading the judge's opinion.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17486 Posts
September 03 2015 18:28 GMT
#1584
has the NFL changed the procedures for how footballs are handled before the game to prevent the possibility of this happening again?
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 03 2015 18:36 GMT
#1585
On September 04 2015 02:22 andrewlt wrote:
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.


To be honest, I am interested in reading the full decision in the future. I don't see how you can rule this way without throwing out the entire CBA, so clearly there will be some legal gymnastics.
Freeeeeeedom
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
September 03 2015 18:55 GMT
#1586
On September 03 2015 23:47 tonight wrote:
Brady wins appeal, 4 game suspension lifted.

I call bullshit.

True the suspension and the entire episode have been complete bull from the nfl and teams who can't beat the patriots so try to get the nfl to do what they can't.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
September 03 2015 19:05 GMT
#1587
On September 04 2015 03:01 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2015 23:36 y0su wrote:
so, who drafted based on Brady being able to play?

I picked him up relatively early thinking that he might win the appeal, but knowing that I could get someone competent to cover the first four games.

Anyway, I don't even like the Patriots, but suck it, Goodell.


And if you're going to lose games, it might as well be early in the season. There are always players people miss while drafting and it's nice to have priority on the waiver wire as consolation.

It's really hard for any team to be more hateable than Goodell right now.
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
September 03 2015 19:44 GMT
#1588
And my day just got even better
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
giftdgecko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2126 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 19:53:21
September 03 2015 19:49 GMT
#1589
Well what's in the news today?

Seriously though, the NFL was verbally beaten by a lack of evidence in court and a lack of legal understanding in the ruling. Complete victory for the nflpa.

Also the procedural changes for how the footballs are handled pregame are available on the Web if you search. I'll be interested to see the compiled data (assuming it's made public).

The worst part of this is, the owners will keep rog-god until the end of his contact because he's willing to be the whipping boy and they are still making money by the truck load
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
September 03 2015 21:00 GMT
#1590
On September 04 2015 03:36 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 02:22 andrewlt wrote:
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.


To be honest, I am interested in reading the full decision in the future. I don't see how you can rule this way without throwing out the entire CBA, so clearly there will be some legal gymnastics.

I don't think the CBA allows the commissioner to be as bad at his job as he wants to. I haven't read the details myself but I have to imagine that when the commissioner is required to fulfill his duties on investigating and determining player discipline, he still has standards he has to live up to and boundaries he has to respect. He can't just throw darts at a board, but on the other hand he isn't required to treat every case like it's for treason. Somewhere in the middle is a line marking a "good enough" job. This judge doesn't think he reached that line on the Brady case. I'm personally relieved that the judge was able to rule as he did because I don't think that the procedure for the investigation and the punishment were fair.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 03 2015 22:11 GMT
#1591
On September 04 2015 06:00 NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 03:36 cLutZ wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:22 andrewlt wrote:
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.


To be honest, I am interested in reading the full decision in the future. I don't see how you can rule this way without throwing out the entire CBA, so clearly there will be some legal gymnastics.

I don't think the CBA allows the commissioner to be as bad at his job as he wants to. I haven't read the details myself but I have to imagine that when the commissioner is required to fulfill his duties on investigating and determining player discipline, he still has standards he has to live up to and boundaries he has to respect. He can't just throw darts at a board, but on the other hand he isn't required to treat every case like it's for treason. Somewhere in the middle is a line marking a "good enough" job. This judge doesn't think he reached that line on the Brady case. I'm personally relieved that the judge was able to rule as he did because I don't think that the procedure for the investigation and the punishment were fair.

The reason why so many legal scholars were expecting the NFL to win is that the legal standard for overturning an arbiter's decision is so damned hard. Basically, the decision has to be arbitrary and capricious, which isn't easy to show. That Brady's legal team was able to make such a showing is an incredibly damning indictment of Goodell.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 03 2015 22:32 GMT
#1592
On September 04 2015 07:11 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 06:00 NonY wrote:
On September 04 2015 03:36 cLutZ wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:22 andrewlt wrote:
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.


To be honest, I am interested in reading the full decision in the future. I don't see how you can rule this way without throwing out the entire CBA, so clearly there will be some legal gymnastics.

I don't think the CBA allows the commissioner to be as bad at his job as he wants to. I haven't read the details myself but I have to imagine that when the commissioner is required to fulfill his duties on investigating and determining player discipline, he still has standards he has to live up to and boundaries he has to respect. He can't just throw darts at a board, but on the other hand he isn't required to treat every case like it's for treason. Somewhere in the middle is a line marking a "good enough" job. This judge doesn't think he reached that line on the Brady case. I'm personally relieved that the judge was able to rule as he did because I don't think that the procedure for the investigation and the punishment were fair.

The reason why so many legal scholars were expecting the NFL to win is that the legal standard for overturning an arbiter's decision is so damned hard. Basically, the decision has to be arbitrary and capricious, which isn't easy to show. That Brady's legal team was able to make such a showing is an incredibly damning indictment of Goodell.

Well, skimming through the ruling, it really has no discussion of what the owners/Goodell gave up in return for this power. IMO that makes the decision fundamentally flawed, or the NFL attorneys fundamentally incompetent for not raising the point.
Freeeeeeedom
giftdgecko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2126 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 22:58:30
September 03 2015 22:58 GMT
#1593
http://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/cases/show.php?db=special&id=484
He starts off stating the process and quoting testimony and emails

Then they get into legal reasoning that must be met to overturn + Show Spoiler +
"The deference due an arbitrator does not extend so far as to require a district court to countenance, much less confirm, an award obtained without the requisites of fairness or due process." Kaplan v. Alfred Dunhill of London, Inc., No. 96 Civ. 259 (JFK), 1996 WL
640901, at *7 (S.D.N.Y. Nov. 4, 1996).


+ Show Spoiler +
For example, FAA § I 0 provides that the Court may vacate an arbitral award "where the arbitrators were guilty of ...
refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy."


+ Show Spoiler +
The Court may also vacate an arbitral award "where there was evident partiality ... "


+ Show Spoiler +
It is the "law of the shop" to provide professional football players with advance notice of prohibited conduct and potential discipline

Quotes Tagliabue from Saints bounty case
+ Show Spoiler +
There is no evidence of a record of past suspensions based purely on obstructing a League investigation.


Gives decision and reasoning
+ Show Spoiler +
The Court is fully aware of the deference afforded to arbitral decisions, but, nevertheless, concludes that the Award should be vacated. The Award is premised upon several significant legal deficiencies, including (A) inadequate notice to Brady of both his potential discipline (four-game suspension) and his alleged misconduct; (B) denial of the opportunity for Brady to examine one of two lead investigators, namely NFL Executive Vice President and General Counsel JeffPash; and (C) denial of equal access to investigative files, including witness interview notes.


Smashes the NFL for the steroid comparison, continuing on to that he is unable to perceive any notice of discipline
+ Show Spoiler +
The Court finds that the NFL's collectively bargained for "Policy on Anabolic Steroids and Related Substances" ("Steroid Policy") is sui generis. It cannot, as a matter of law, serve as adequate notice of discipline to Brady. It also cannot reasonably be used as a comparator for Brady's four-game suspension for alleged ball deflation by others in the first half of the AFC Championship Game and for non-cooperation in the ensuing Investigation. The Steroid Policy is incorporated into the 2014 Player Policies, which sets forth in great detail "testing procedures," "procedures in response to positive tests or other evaluation," "suspension and related discipline," "appeal right," "burdens and standards of proof," and "discovery," none of which has anything to do with Brady's conduct and/or his discipline. See NFL Policy on Anabolic Steroids and Related Substances at 5-16.

+ Show Spoiler +
The absence of such notice violated the "law of the shop."


But... Conduct Detrimental?
+ Show Spoiler +
Goodell's reliance on notice of broad CBA "conduct detrimental" policy-as opposed to specific Player Policies regarding equipment violations-to impose discipline upon Brady is legally misplaced.


Pash wasn't allowed as a witness was unfair and the fact that Goodell gave no real reason is troubling
+ Show Spoiler +
The Court finds that Commissioner Goodell's denial of Brady's motion to compel the testimony of Mr. Pash was fundamentally unfair and in violation of9 U.S.C. § !O(a)(3). Given Mr. Pash's very senior position in the NFL, his role as Executive Vice President and General Counsel, and his designation as co-lead investigator with Ted Wells, it is logical that he would have valuable insight into the course and outcome of the Investigation and into the drafting and content of the Wells Report. It is also problematic to the Court that there was no specification by Goodell as to the ways Pash's testimony would have been "cumulative."

... + Show Spoiler +
the NFL fairly cannot suggest, without more than the testimony of the NFL's retained counsel, that the edits from Mr. Pash were not significant or that his testimony would have been "cumulative."

...+ Show Spoiler +
Mr. Wells acknowledged that he did not know the content of Mr. Pash' s pre-release edits, and thus there was simply "no reasonable basis for the arbitration panel to determine that ... [the] omitted testimony would be cumulative."

States that Brady was denied the opportunity to, among other things, whether the report was actually "independent" (he puts the "independent" in quotes every time he uses the wells report)

Denial of the report notes "prejudiced" Brady and was "fundamentally unfair"
plus he remarks on the NFL's choice of counsel + Show Spoiler +
Compounding Brady's prejudice is the fact that, as noted, Paul, Weiss acted as both alleged "independent" counsel during the Investigation and also (perhaps inconsistently) as retained counsel to the NFL during the arbitration.


Court does not find Goodel "evidently partial" (among other things Vincent was allowed to give out the punishment and Goodell serve as arbitrator)

Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
September 03 2015 23:12 GMT
#1594
On September 04 2015 01:30 Sermokala wrote:
The whole idea that the NFL thought that "more probable then not" level of evidence would hold up in court is baffling. Roger should be fired for this whole mess.

Not to mention the level of bullshit the NFL has been feeding reporters to misrepresent stories. Eventually those internal emails will come out, as I'm sure the reporters aren't thrilled with being lied to.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 04 2015 00:06 GMT
#1595
Yup, the full text of the opinion clearly seems to indicate that the NFL likes this CBA enough, even with Goodell's potentially reduced power as a result of the adverse decision, that they did not present a coherent argument about the severability of the unilateral punishment power.
Freeeeeeedom
AgentW
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States7725 Posts
September 04 2015 01:39 GMT
#1596
On September 04 2015 08:12 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 01:30 Sermokala wrote:
The whole idea that the NFL thought that "more probable then not" level of evidence would hold up in court is baffling. Roger should be fired for this whole mess.

Not to mention the level of bullshit the NFL has been feeding reporters to misrepresent stories. Eventually those internal emails will come out, as I'm sure the reporters aren't thrilled with being lied to.

This is one of the scariest things that was revealed during all this, IMO: Schefter and Mortenson are basically fed anything, and it sounds like a lot of this was blown out of proportion intentionally by the league in order to help their case.
Who's the bigger scrub, the scrub, or the scrub who loses to him?
ShloobeR
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Korea (South)3820 Posts
September 04 2015 03:52 GMT
#1597
Look like Tebow is going to be sticking around on the eagles 53 man roster a little longer
: o )
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
September 04 2015 05:34 GMT
#1598
On September 04 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 07:11 xDaunt wrote:
On September 04 2015 06:00 NonY wrote:
On September 04 2015 03:36 cLutZ wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:22 andrewlt wrote:
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.


To be honest, I am interested in reading the full decision in the future. I don't see how you can rule this way without throwing out the entire CBA, so clearly there will be some legal gymnastics.

I don't think the CBA allows the commissioner to be as bad at his job as he wants to. I haven't read the details myself but I have to imagine that when the commissioner is required to fulfill his duties on investigating and determining player discipline, he still has standards he has to live up to and boundaries he has to respect. He can't just throw darts at a board, but on the other hand he isn't required to treat every case like it's for treason. Somewhere in the middle is a line marking a "good enough" job. This judge doesn't think he reached that line on the Brady case. I'm personally relieved that the judge was able to rule as he did because I don't think that the procedure for the investigation and the punishment were fair.

The reason why so many legal scholars were expecting the NFL to win is that the legal standard for overturning an arbiter's decision is so damned hard. Basically, the decision has to be arbitrary and capricious, which isn't easy to show. That Brady's legal team was able to make such a showing is an incredibly damning indictment of Goodell.

Well, skimming through the ruling, it really has no discussion of what the owners/Goodell gave up in return for this power. IMO that makes the decision fundamentally flawed, or the NFL attorneys fundamentally incompetent for not raising the point.

Basic labor law? You can't suspend/fire someone without justification...
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14113 Posts
September 04 2015 07:08 GMT
#1599
On September 04 2015 12:52 ShloobeR wrote:
Look like Tebow is going to be sticking around on the eagles 53 man roster a little longer

He'll be good for selling preseason tickets for them every year. thats something I guess.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 04 2015 07:42 GMT
#1600
On September 04 2015 14:34 y0su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote:
On September 04 2015 07:11 xDaunt wrote:
On September 04 2015 06:00 NonY wrote:
On September 04 2015 03:36 cLutZ wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:22 andrewlt wrote:
I wanted to pick Brady up in round 2 of a 2 QB league. I got beaten by a few picks.

Remember when Roger also lost a Supreme Court case by a 9-0 decision? The NFL doesn't seem to know how a real court works.


To be honest, I am interested in reading the full decision in the future. I don't see how you can rule this way without throwing out the entire CBA, so clearly there will be some legal gymnastics.

I don't think the CBA allows the commissioner to be as bad at his job as he wants to. I haven't read the details myself but I have to imagine that when the commissioner is required to fulfill his duties on investigating and determining player discipline, he still has standards he has to live up to and boundaries he has to respect. He can't just throw darts at a board, but on the other hand he isn't required to treat every case like it's for treason. Somewhere in the middle is a line marking a "good enough" job. This judge doesn't think he reached that line on the Brady case. I'm personally relieved that the judge was able to rule as he did because I don't think that the procedure for the investigation and the punishment were fair.

The reason why so many legal scholars were expecting the NFL to win is that the legal standard for overturning an arbiter's decision is so damned hard. Basically, the decision has to be arbitrary and capricious, which isn't easy to show. That Brady's legal team was able to make such a showing is an incredibly damning indictment of Goodell.

Well, skimming through the ruling, it really has no discussion of what the owners/Goodell gave up in return for this power. IMO that makes the decision fundamentally flawed, or the NFL attorneys fundamentally incompetent for not raising the point.

Basic labor law? You can't suspend/fire someone without justification...


Actually...
1. In most states, "basic" labor law you can fire anyone for any reason, except for a few that you can't (sex, race).
2. This is actually governed by the CBA, which supersedes basic labor law. So actually the judge must interpret whether the suspension was in accordance with that agreement.
3. Given that Goodell is given broad and sweeping powers (cited in the option) under the CBA what the judge actually did was say that Goodell's analogies were non-analogous (I.E. he interpreted too broadly). But, under those same provisions he is given authority to interpret broadly. But, the judge concludes that such a broad interpretation powers for Goodell is not fair.
4. [This essential step is missing] The judge should then discuss the value to Goodell and the League of such broad, unilateral, powers. Is it 1% of all players salaries? 5%? 50%? We don't know, despite this being essential, because this is a collectively bargained provision so it was, by definition, traded for something else in the contract.

As an analogy, imagine a contract where you agree to buy 500 Trees from a lumberjack, and you all negotiate the price to be $500 per tree, but also there is a provision that says that if there are leaves on the tree you shall get it for 50%. And you get to appoint the decider of whether the tree still has leaves on it. Well, that is quite a valuable power. Its probably worth a 10% discount, at least, so otherwise you would be paying $450, $400 a tree if the provision allowed for a different deciding mechanism that favored the other person. If a judge strikes down only the appointing provision, that is simply a windfall for the other party. And that is what the judge failed to address.
Freeeeeeedom
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