EPTWhat if ELO Hell is a place we create for ourselves?
Ranked matchmaking coming to Dota 2 - Page 91
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Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
What if ELO Hell is a place we create for ourselves? | ||
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durrrrr
Bulgaria106 Posts
On January 06 2014 23:47 ChunderBoy wrote: i know juice (very snowball oriented player), he can do it easily with any hero. it will just take a while depending on how much +rating valve gives u when ure on huge streaks with smurf-like kdas. also there is a rly huge difference between 5k and 5.5k players. the difference between 5.5k and 6k players is less. valve shud show rating of everyone next to their name during loading, so yellow/orange and darkgreen/brown players wud know their place and stop picking mids/carries and losing me games. mid lanes that are blue vs brown are just amazing to watch. My friend I've personally tested this and blue> brown is total shit and this is not hon.My personal example is this I was playing with pro's EXTREMELY often,also 1st page very often before ranked hit, but my winrate isn't that high it was 51.50% at that time with about ~1300 wins.After ranked hit it basically gives u roughly ~30 for every win or so depending on ur uncertainty(the lower ur uncertainty,when it reaches 0 u get pretty much 25~30 rating everygame over 25 min).Valve system took as a starting base the winrate for both solo and party,so pretty much every player that had good stack winrate and is good had 5k+,well I dont have good stack winrate because I dont have good friends and pretty much 80% of my games are solo.So I ended at ~4700 and I can tell u that 50% or so of my games are decided by 5 min cause of feed or bad pick.Considering that before ranked hit I was winning easily the 1st page games,often beating pro's I can tell u that this is not ELO hell but I dont think this kind of system represents one's skill in a game like DotA.My 2 cents. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13092 Posts
We traded raxes but their team went for the throne and we lost the game because everyone died from our side and THAT alch bragged being 4100 MMR... guess its true everyone is terrible under 5k rating in the end. | ||
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durrrrr
Bulgaria106 Posts
On January 07 2014 05:10 SkelA wrote: Well yesterday i had an ally that played alchemist and he maxed greed into stun with no acid untill 22 lvl. Yes he had a sick gpm and got a couple of kills but he refused to get acid while whole team said so and we lost because he was farming whole game and didnt had a tp while he was pushing bot and their team was right into our faces and killing our tier 3. We traded raxes but their team went for the throne and we lost the game because everyone died from our side and THAT alch bragged being 4100 MMR... guess its true everyone is terrible under 5k rating in the end. Thats also not true,there are really good players under 5k and really horrible players(mainly russians) that die one time and ruin ur whole game and have no game sense whatsoever,I'm talking (4500-5000) range. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
His test-run is perfectly legit, if he gets close to his true rank then that means the system is working properly and will place you where you belong. Now if people want a 3,5k guy to break through to some x rating, say 4k and is having "issues" because of his teammates, then that's an entirely different thing. If you want to get to the "next level" you have to waaaaay out-perform your skill bracket. In my experience ratings are like +200/-200 thing. Or even more, one streak and you're up/down 200 points, doesn't really mean you belong there, even if you do it consistently and then fall back. tldr; elo hell doesn't exist, skill plateaus do and are much harder to break through than the supposed fiery abyss | ||
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durrrrr
Bulgaria106 Posts
On January 07 2014 05:46 Andre wrote: Wow it seems to me that people that say that Juice's test is pointless are confusing "elo hell" with skill plateaus. His test-run is perfectly legit, if he gets close to his true rank then that means the system is working properly and will place you where you belong. Now if people want a 3,5k guy to break through to some x rating, say 4k and is having "issues" because of his teammates, then that's an entirely different thing. If you want to get to the "next level" you have to waaaaay out-perform your skill bracket. In my experience ratings are like +200/-200 thing. Or even more, one streak and you're up/down 200 points, doesn't really mean you belong there, even if you do it consistently and then fall back. tldr; elo hell doesn't exist, skill plateaus do and are much harder to break through than the supposed fiery abyss This is true yes,I'm floating around 4650-4800 with losing/winning streaks and can't break that and I consider myself semi-pro player,currently 10 loss streak :D | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2014 05:46 Andre wrote: In my experience ratings are like +200/-200 thing. Or even more, one streak and you're up/down 200 points, doesn't really mean you belong there, even if you do it consistently and then fall back. This is the big thing people don't get. +/- 200 rating is basically an 8 game win or lose streak, which happens all the time. The resolution of the rating system isn't that good, so complaining that you're 200 rating below where you should be is just silly because that small of a rating difference is in large part just variance anyway. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On January 07 2014 05:57 durrrrr wrote: This is true yes,I'm floating around 4650-4800 with losing/winning streaks and can't break that and I consider myself semi-pro player,currently 10 loss streak :D oh sweetie | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On January 07 2014 05:46 Andre wrote: His test-run is perfectly legit, if he gets close to his true rank then that means the system is working properly and will place you where you belong. What will be proven is that in his circumstance it works legit, he doesnt play random, mostly midheros, certainly no supports in soloqeue. I am curious what happens when he enters 4500mmr zone and higher, because then its gets alot harder and he will not rise as much as before or maybe even stuck in elohell, who knows  But still 1 testrun is not representive for the total mmr system. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Whenever you win a game, the other team losses. Are they in ELO hell too? Did you only win because your opponent was matched with terrible teammates? Does ELO hell mean that all your wins are meaningless too? | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
 All your base belong to us | ||
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maru~
2345 Posts
On January 07 2014 05:46 Andre wrote: Wow it seems to me that people that say that Juice's test is pointless are confusing "elo hell" with skill plateaus. His test-run is perfectly legit, if he gets close to his true rank then that means the system is working properly and will place you where you belong. Now if people want a 3,5k guy to break through to some x rating, say 4k and is having "issues" because of his teammates, then that's an entirely different thing. If you want to get to the "next level" you have to waaaaay out-perform your skill bracket. In my experience ratings are like +200/-200 thing. Or even more, one streak and you're up/down 200 points, doesn't really mean you belong there, even if you do it consistently and then fall back. tldr; elo hell doesn't exist, skill plateaus do and are much harder to break through than the supposed fiery abyss Yes, it's super meaningful to prove that you can climb up when the system thinks you are a beyond trash pubber when you're in fact one of the top players. Who would have thought? You're right, points are somewhat volatile. Hence my random suggestion of 4k <-> 3k rather than the +-200 you are talking about. If this were to happen (again, I have no idea if this can even happen) I don't think you could say that player in question reached his skill plateau. He wouldn't be stuck there, but it'd probably be an unpleasent and slow climb. On January 07 2014 06:06 govie wrote: What will be proven is that in his circumstance it works legit, he doesnt play random, mostly midheros, certainly no supports in soloqeue. I am curious what happens when he enters 4500mmr zone and higher, because then its gets alot harder and he will not rise as much as before or maybe even stuck in elohell, who knows It'll slow down the higher he gets, but he won't get stuck. 4.5k should be easy actually. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On January 07 2014 06:06 govie wrote: What will be proven is that in his circumstance it works legit, he doesnt play random, mostly midheros, certainly no supports in soloqeue. I am curious what happens when he enters 4500mmr zone and higher, because then its gets alot harder and he will not rise as much as before or maybe even stuck in elohell, who knows But still 1 testrun is not representive for the total mmr system. You should check out LoL. I don't know how things work now there but back when I played, people solo-queued from the bottom of the trenches to the top by playing support, and this is in a game where supports have way less impact compared to DotA.(at least back then idk now) Why should he play support to prove his point? If you have issues with your rating/games just pick mid and carry yourself out, pretty simple. And if you're a pure support player getting used to other roles will take <100 of games with a minimal amount of rating lost, and then you'll see if you're really capable of carrying games yourself. Even though I personally believe solo roles favor any kind of mmr system in teamgames I'm still saddened by the fact that so many people wanna play mid/carry all the time considering that you will hit a peak where your role won't matter all that much. | ||
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toemn
Germany915 Posts
It applies to people who 1) random every game 2) play solo only 3) play support only. Maybe there are few players who manage to rise significantly in ranking by doing the above things but I'm sure it's the minority. You can't expect to climb out of ELO hell by putting no effort in or learning new roles. I'd just train some popular mid heroes to death in unranked and play mid only if you are confident that you can win every mid matchup for your hero. That's how you get better. And people who are saying that playing only few heroes is boring are not competitive or very low ranked. It's fun winning hard games. You win hard games if you know the heroes potential because you played it so much and know what to do in every situation even when behind. ELO hell = explained. | ||
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durrrrr
Bulgaria106 Posts
Oh u dont believe me,oh well.. oh well..what to do .. oh well.. | ||
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Vikeif
126 Posts
On January 07 2014 04:57 Plansix wrote: What if your team mates are in ELO hell with you and you are the one keeping them down? What if ELO hell is the place where everyone thinks it's their teammates fault? What if ELO Hell is a place we create for ourselves? No because that's...it can't be that it'd mean that I'm...there's no way that...but they're...no...NO...NOOOOOOOOO | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
If anyone knows probably, Maelk finished his placements 1-9 and got 5110. I know people, who finished as 9-1 and got 4200. Where is logic, where do we have to find it? | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On January 07 2014 06:43 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Will ask question here just for lulz. If anyone knows probably, Maelk finished his placements 1-9 and got 5110. I know people, who finished as 9-1 and got 4200. Where is logic, where do we have to find it? Because the rating starts at whatever your rating was before the ranked update. Your people didn't have as high initial rating as Maelk for obvious reasons I imagine. | ||
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durrrrr
Bulgaria106 Posts
On January 07 2014 06:43 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Will ask question here just for lulz. If anyone knows probably, Maelk finished his placements 1-9 and got 5110. I know people, who finished as 9-1 and got 4200. Where is logic, where do we have to find it? Logic is u had a hidden rating based on winrate and he just got higher hidden rating than the ppl you know. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On January 07 2014 06:43 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Will ask question here just for lulz. If anyone knows probably, Maelk finished his placements 1-9 and got 5110. I know people, who finished as 9-1 and got 4200. Where is logic, where do we have to find it? placements dont really matter, it's based on your unranked mmr before the calibration matches | ||
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