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Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts. |
On December 25 2013 13:30 MaZza[KIS] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 13:24 Kupon3ss wrote:
if you're having to play differently and try hard to work yourself out of "Elo hell", It means that's the level you're average play is and you need to improve to raise the rating, which is hard. sounds like the game is working as intended Game is not hard because of individual play. Game is hard because approx 30-40% of the time in mid 3K rankings u get inconsistent players on their "bad game" and you lose simply because of their poor picks or feeding. It always feels like two steps forward, one step back. This means that it takes a hell of a long time to climb out or you have to play 2 levels above where you're at to carry these people in a game. I would love to actually give a Pro player a 3K account and see how long it takes them to dig themselves out as someone mentioned.
You know this doesn't change at higher Elo's. I'm at a pretty high Elo and I'd say 40% of the time people lose due to inconsistent players on their "bad game" or poor picks or feeding or trolling. It's not Elo hell, it's just the nature of Dota. Granted people at higher MMRs might not make huge, blundering mistakes, but because the skill level of everyone else in the game is higher, smaller mistakes are heavily punished and the end result is the same. Game is hard.
That being said, I returned to playing Dota 4 days ago and the games in the new ranked system feel much better than the old matchmaking. The old matchmaking put you with 4 absolutely god awful at least 3k mmr below you type of players, while the new matchmaking the skill gap is actually acceptable.
Also, does anyone know why I can't see the ranking of anyone except my friends? I could see other peoples rankings a few days ago, but now I cant. Did valve change it?
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On December 25 2013 17:19 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 13:36 TrainSamurai wrote:On December 25 2013 13:35 Kuroeeah wrote:
you should stop yourself before you start saying stuff like getting to 4k rating from the 3k bracket is harder than getting to 5k from the 4k bracket. No where did i say that. My main point was not about difficulty at all. I probably shouldn't have even included that part in. Get off your high horse On December 25 2013 13:29 Nevuk wrote:On December 25 2013 12:58 TrainSamurai wrote:On December 25 2013 12:12 SKC wrote:On December 25 2013 11:19 TrainSamurai wrote:On December 25 2013 05:00 SKC wrote:
If you are playing with terrible people 80% of the time, you should win very often. Unless you, for some reason, believe the system has a grudge with you and doesn't put the same kind of player on the other team. On that note I think we need a mechanic for escaping ELO hell. I use to be around 4k+ (estimate from my friends mmr) but am now 3.4k because I was teaching a group of new players. What is my ranked win rate in this ELO hell? 75-80%. Just think about what this means for a second. Over the last two days I went 9-3 which I consider respectable(the losts weren't even my fault imo), thats a net gain of 6 games. 6*25=150. ONLY 150 POINTS! I'm still stuck in the god dam bracket. If this was during uni sem I would only be able to play at most 3 games a day, assume I win 2/3 games every day, it would take me 4-5 days on a 66% win rate just to gain 100 points. That is insane. I CANNOT play 6 hrs every day. Sure I could play MORE games but do you how fkn draining games at 3.5k are? This is literally the worst bracket I've ever played in. I remember when I came from d1 to play d2, normal brackets = everyone is friendly because they're learning the game so even if I lose I'm pretty happy, in very high it was pretty simple and also easy going (not perfect sailing by any means) but high/3.5k is the scum bracket caused by : 1. Players in this bracket are very sure of themselves. 2. They're wrong and are shit (note I'm currently at 75-80% win rate in ranked). I've had people thrown games for the most ridiculous shit and have to win in spite of that fact. Here are a few examples: - Stack on my team throws because they're pissed off I went burning build (putting points in stats is dumb apparently, you should max mana break) - My offlaner throws and flames team because enemy safe lane 3-0 jug got a naked battlefury in 14 MINUTES. Seriously? thats slow as shit considering he went 3-0 and got uncontested farm but no timbersaw is convined our 14 minute linken medusa cannot carry and proceeds to throw. If only these were rare isolated cases... The problem isn't not being able to climb out of ELO hell, its that ELO hell is huge and takes too long to solo out of. Back in the old days I could just 5 man stack my way out of 3.5k easily if I wanted to, now I can't. My match page only has 3-4 loses on it and my MMR barely moved an inch. When uni starts I don't want to be stuck in a bracket below my level for an extended amount of time because of the limited amount of games I play in a day. We need something more than a measly 25-29 points per match, maybe some bonus points when you're above 50% win rate. There are mechanics for escaping the "Elo hell". It's the uncertainty factor. 9-3 just isn't that huge, specially if you were there for a lot of games, it's a fairly ordinary win streak. If the winning trend continues uncertainty get's higher and you move up faster. I get that record consistenly which is why I'm complaining. 9-3 is just a number I remember because I got that during xmas break, overall my winrate in rank is like 75-80% as in since 1.5 weeks?. What the hell am I suppose to do, get 100% win rate? Sorry buddy I'm above the 3.5k level but i'm sure as hell not that good. I don't play a lot of games per day dude, if you play 3 games per day would you expect someone to get 75% for that day? no of course not thats impossible because its either 0 33 66 or 100. I as a sniper Found your problem I random every game and play all positions  , I'm a bit sensible and random b4 the team but I'm not having trouble winning. Thats whats wrong with this thread. My point wasn't even remotely about how difficult the games were, planting wards as a sniper IS NOT HARD. Ok, so it seems like your problem is that you feel like your mmr is below the level you should be at, and that the system is preventing you from easily climbing it to be where you should be. This raises the question: If you want to raise your mmr, why are you dicking around? These are ranked games. Yet you are randoming at the start of picking, which means a few things. One, you are playing a hero that you probably have not recently played, therefor are not playing at your best on. Secondly, you pick that hero instantly, allowing the other team to counterpick/design a teamcomp against whatever hero you randomed. Thirdly, if you random a hard carry and your team has a guy that can only play hard carry you've effectively just lost the game for your team. Fourth, being able to play all roles sounds all well and good, but it also means that you are worse at all the roles then if you just focused on a couple. Finally, you could random a hero that is not that strong right now, meaning you also have to play a hero that is inherently weaker then some others. You are intentionally putting yourself and your team at a disadvantage, yet come here to complain that you can't raise your rating. Like it or not, the best way to win games is to consistently play a small subset of very strong heroes, and get very very good at them. It is also to abuse things like waiting until the last minute to pick, and picking the "broken" heroes like broodmother. It doesn't matter how "good" of a player you are, that can play all positions equally well, if your handicapping yourself and your team from the get go.
1. I am playing random because I want to have fun? I'm consistenly winning not losing.... you got me confused with someone else. If i lose a lot i'll consider not randoming.
2. When you play AP rank neither side will pick because they're both counter picking. Someone has got to take the dive and get the ball rolling. Even then I still have to deal with 5 minute pauses just so 1 scrub can figure out how to best counter pick.
Even when I have my hero I sometimes miss the first creep wave cause team does not want to say anything about thier lanes (I need to know so I can buy the right items, doesn't have much variation but sometimes it matters).
3. OK FINE I may have dicked over one guy on my team who can only play carry but I think thats more valve's fault for putting incompetents on the team. But mostly whenever I ask what role people want to play the reply I usually get is "see what other team picks", once again someone has gotta get the game started.
4. At this level, counterpicking doesn't really bother me beyond delaying the game. Furthermore I've found that when I play carry/mid a lot I realised what I really want from my supports -> now I know what to do as a support in some senarios.
5. Doesn't bother me, at the end of the day I also want to have some fun, which means playing with heroes I don't play often. Plus have you seen how they lane in 3.5k? you can win with anything.
I guess the reason that I'm pissed is because I started try harding in rank and see the MMR number go slowly up 25-29 points per match just makes my blood boil (once again because I don't have time to play so many games).
Sometimes I do pick then someone all chats "GG ALCHEMIST LAST PICK 6 CARRY TAEM", this is what vexes me the most about this level, even if I win that game I'm just incredible pissed off.
On December 25 2013 18:28 1015Fan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 13:30 MaZza[KIS] wrote:On December 25 2013 13:24 Kupon3ss wrote:
if you're having to play differently and try hard to work yourself out of "Elo hell", It means that's the level you're average play is and you need to improve to raise the rating, which is hard. sounds like the game is working as intended Game is not hard because of individual play. Game is hard because approx 30-40% of the time in mid 3K rankings u get inconsistent players on their "bad game" and you lose simply because of their poor picks or feeding. It always feels like two steps forward, one step back. This means that it takes a hell of a long time to climb out or you have to play 2 levels above where you're at to carry these people in a game. I would love to actually give a Pro player a 3K account and see how long it takes them to dig themselves out as someone mentioned. You know this doesn't change at higher Elo's. I'm at a pretty high Elo and I'd say 40% of the time people lose due to inconsistent players on their "bad game" or poor picks or feeding or trolling. It's not Elo hell, it's just the nature of Dota. Granted people at higher MMRs might not make huge, blundering mistakes, but because the skill level of everyone else in the game is higher, smaller mistakes are heavily punished and the end result is the same. Game is hard. That being said, I returned to playing Dota 4 days ago and the games in the new ranked system feel much better than the old matchmaking. The old matchmaking put you with 4 absolutely god awful at least 3k mmr below you type of players, while the new matchmaking the skill gap is actually acceptable. Also, does anyone know why I can't see the ranking of anyone except my friends? I could see other peoples rankings a few days ago, but now I cant. Did valve change it?
Valve said nothing about changing the algo just that they let you see a number now.
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Playing good doesnt matter in ladder as long as there are 1-2 retards dragging your whole team down , doesnt matter if you great support when mid is feeding and your carry cant last hit to save his life, or winning offlane 1v3 when mid and top are getting wrecked 2v4....
Thinking of changing the strategy in ladder picking snowball heroes that can solo carry the game even with bad players in your team.
Any good advice from the mmr gods here in TL which heroes will let me do this the best ? Im not a great player but im not that terrible hovering around 35-40% winrate and ~3600-3700 rating.
I just want to pass 4k rating and dont wanna queue with trolls, terrible players that are clearly WAY worse than me in every aspect. This didnt happened to me before ranked for months , its like ive come back in time and playing from scratch with the noobs on level 1.
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On December 25 2013 19:16 SkelA wrote:
Playing good doesnt matter in ladder as long as there are 1-2 retards dragging your whole team down , doesnt matter if you great support when mid is feeding and your carry cant last hit to save his life, or winning offlane 1v3 when mid and top are getting wrecked 2v4....
Thinking of changing the strategy in ladder picking snowball heroes that can solo carry the game even with bad players in your team.
Any good advice from the mmr gods here in TL which heroes will let me do this the best ? Im not a great player but im not that terrible hovering around 35-40% winrate and ~3600-3700 rating.
I just want to pass 4k rating and dont wanna queue with trolls, terrible players that are clearly WAY worse than me in every aspect. This didnt happened to me before ranked for months , its like ive come back in time and playing from scratch with the noobs on level 1.
People at that MMR don't pay attention to creep aggro when they're in the side lane. Use that to waste all thier regen and stomp the lane then snowball. Also do roshan more. When losing do smokes, get pick offs and you're back in the game. EZ
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On December 25 2013 19:16 SkelA wrote:
Playing good doesnt matter in ladder as long as there are 1-2 retards dragging your whole team down , doesnt matter if you great support when mid is feeding and your carry cant last hit to save his life, or winning offlane 1v3 when mid and top are getting wrecked 2v4....
Thinking of changing the strategy in ladder picking snowball heroes that can solo carry the game even with bad players in your team.
Any good advice from the mmr gods here in TL which heroes will let me do this the best ? Im not a great player but im not that terrible hovering around 35-40% winrate and ~3600-3700 rating.
I just want to pass 4k rating and dont wanna queue with trolls, terrible players that are clearly WAY worse than me in every aspect. This didnt happened to me before ranked for months , its like ive come back in time and playing from scratch with the noobs on level 1.
I'm at exactly 3900, but this applies in general I think, I haven't played all that many ranked games, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt
Playing mid is generally the best way to carry your team IMO. I have had some success with offlane and roaming supports but most carries are too team dependent (even if they are killing carries), junglers are hit or miss, and babysitting lane supports don't provide you with the same level of control over the game.
Play heroes like Slark, QoP, Puck, Death Prophet, BH, TA, Kunkka, Tiny, Mirana, Tinker, Clock, Pudge, Magnus, DS, Timbersaw, Bat, Doom. Most of these heroes are mid heroes/offlane heroes. The roaming supports I've had success with are Earthshaker and Venge (mostly Venge). Focus on winning your lane-if you FB the enemy or kill them without dying before 6 minutes you can generally snowball off of it if you don't make any serious errors.
Almost all of those heroes can snowball really hard somehow on their own or with minimal assistance. With assistance they're pretty much guaranteed to snowball. Almost all of them are also very useful in mounting comebacks if your team is behind, and many are elusive enough or have enough CC that you can singlehandedly win fights for your team. Example: Slark is basically unkillable, which makes him my favorite in tryhard games. You run around killing people, and if you're about to die, pop ult. You steal the stats of the enemy and most movement is disabled by the leash (which does shit tons of damage) and you can purge yourself too. That's amazing. Any time I see an enemy pick a melee mid hero I'll pick slark. Slark is even pretty good against TA and other low range heroes.
e: but yes, I understand your pain. For some reason my calibration matches were much worse than my normal matches.
I had a luna who did not get lucent beam, for example...till level 5.
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On December 25 2013 13:30 MaZza[KIS] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 13:24 Kupon3ss wrote:
if you're having to play differently and try hard to work yourself out of "Elo hell", It means that's the level you're average play is and you need to improve to raise the rating, which is hard. sounds like the game is working as intended Game is not hard because of individual play. Game is hard because approx 30-40% of the time in mid 3K rankings u get inconsistent players on their "bad game" and you lose simply because of their poor picks or feeding. It always feels like two steps forward, one step back. This means that it takes a hell of a long time to climb out or you have to play 2 levels above where you're at to carry these people in a game. I would love to actually give a Pro player a 3K account and see how long it takes them to dig themselves out as someone mentioned.
It's been done in other games countless times(superior moba for example!).
When will people realize it's their own fault for being at the rating they are?
Understanding that you're shit at DotA is like one of the easiest things to accomplish, it's when you hit the skill plateau that things get hard.
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raising your solo mmr = 400 games. i wud just forget about it and play solo for fun
raising party mmr = 50 games. find what heroes ezmode and get bored tryharding with 1 friend or random from channel
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
There's no way I can see my solo winrate and party winrate, is there? I wish Valve would allow us to see that. You already have separate MMR for solo and party, I don't see why they would hide it now.
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I dont get it why they are using solo and party mmr when there is no such thing as solo play anymore , you might be playing "solo" but i've played against 4 stacks , 3 stacks or 2 x 2 stacks quite frequently
wherebugsgo thanks your your adivice, gonna try to pick more of those heroes, DS is actually one of my best heroes and had 73% winratio with him preranked, now its down to 63% thanks to ranked, the hero is really easy and can win easy 1v2 lanes and even 1v3 in some cases but you cant do shit when your teammates are dumbasses losing other 2 lanes with number advantage.
Just an example of my last DS game, im solo offlane against weaver, visage, AA i get 2-0 1v3 in first few minutes, DK is losing mid against alch, timber was probably winning our trilane against luna lion, CM because Luna had shit farm or just he couldnt last hit with luna dunno , i wreck their lane and they went yolo 5 allin push on my lane, died twice and they were killing tier 2 tower, was asking for a movement from my team when they show as 5, supports come just before tier 2 dies, DK farms mid because he had a bad lane and comes late too , Luna farms not showing her face for 15 min in fights and we kinda fed 10-15 kills in a row without movement from luna and a late showing from DK. Was it my fault we lost because i was winning trilane alone when teammates suck ...
From my experience nyx, storm , bristle are good at snowballing too so will see if i can actually rise in rank or just not good enough i guess
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How surprised I am to see that the majority of people opposing the system are people low ranked that believe they are much better than their current rank and call it "elo hell". Why don't you just face it? The system works and you got placed exactly where you belong and if you weren't then winning games should be easy right since you're so much better? I was always on one of the first few pages pre ranked and that's the case now as well.
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coz solo casual players start with gimped rank compared to how they play in serious games and changing that in solo queue is a shitty process. mmr is far easier to change in party; with just 1 friend i am +400mmr in a few games but raising my solo rank from my "casual" 2400 to my competitive mmr 3500? will take months. not whining just explaining
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because everybody thinks that they're above average
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Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
On December 25 2013 22:33 Kupon3ss wrote:
because everybody thinks that they're above average
Damn my EGO 
I suck as shit cuse im 2 agressive  .
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On December 25 2013 22:32 FFGenerations wrote:
coz solo casual players start with gimped rank compared to how they play in serious games and changing that in solo queue is a shitty process. mmr is far easier to change in party; with just 1 friend i am +400mmr in a few games but raising my solo rank from my "casual" 2400 to my competitive mmr 3500? will take months. not whining just explaining
3500 is competitive? xd
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On December 25 2013 22:33 Kupon3ss wrote:
because everybody thinks that they're above average
Accepting you are bad at dota is the first step to improving.
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On December 25 2013 23:03 w.s wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 22:32 FFGenerations wrote:
coz solo casual players start with gimped rank compared to how they play in serious games and changing that in solo queue is a shitty process. mmr is far easier to change in party; with just 1 friend i am +400mmr in a few games but raising my solo rank from my "casual" 2400 to my competitive mmr 3500? will take months. not whining just explaining 3500 is competitive? xd
You misunderstood what he wrote. Save your e-peen.
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My solo MMR is 3316 I think. Is that good? Apparently it's top 10%.
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Anything below 5,5k is shit.
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at this stage, thread should be merged with the QQ thread
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On December 26 2013 05:07 Klonere wrote:
at this stage, thread should be merged with the QQ thread
Unfortunately it isn't the only thread this can be said for sometimes.
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EPT
