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Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts. |
On December 26 2013 10:48 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 10:28 Kupon3ss wrote:On December 26 2013 09:54 Laserist wrote:
There is no way to climb up the MMR rating by playing 5th role supports. My supporting is better than my mid or carry but I lose a good percentage of my support games. Fails, feeds, blames etc.. 4K MMR is nowhere near what valve has stated. this has been proven false time and time again. Plenty of players have gotten to the top of ladders playing exclusively support. Even players who are not necessarily support players like fear have done it on great success. at the top of the ladder, individual mechanics actually play less of a role while understanding and game sense are even more important You prove my claim false by giving example of a pro player. Well Played!
No, his point is spot on. You claim that there is no way to climb up the MMR rating by playing 5 positions - implying that no matter how well you play you are bound to lose or at best break even. He just gave you a counter example that shows if you play consistently well at a high level you will climb to the top of the ladder.
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On December 26 2013 11:56 sgfightmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 10:48 Laserist wrote:On December 26 2013 10:28 Kupon3ss wrote:On December 26 2013 09:54 Laserist wrote:
There is no way to climb up the MMR rating by playing 5th role supports. My supporting is better than my mid or carry but I lose a good percentage of my support games. Fails, feeds, blames etc.. 4K MMR is nowhere near what valve has stated. this has been proven false time and time again. Plenty of players have gotten to the top of ladders playing exclusively support. Even players who are not necessarily support players like fear have done it on great success. at the top of the ladder, individual mechanics actually play less of a role while understanding and game sense are even more important You prove my claim false by giving example of a pro player. Well Played! No, his point is spot on. You claim that there is no way to climb up the MMR rating by playing 5 positions - implying that no matter how well you play you are bound to lose or at best break even. He just gave you a counter example that shows if you play consistently well at a high level you will climb to the top of the ladder.
Furthermore, a pro player's progress is the only viable evidence he can give. Everyone can watch his playing on stream and testify what Kupon3ss claimed. That makes It a matter of fact, no doubt remained at all.
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Im assuming my rating has always been above 3000, and in my last ~150 games, I've won at least 100 of them (I used to be 50% exactly when I was just learning, but now im like 56%) playing almost exclusively 4/5 position. I play a lot of Clockwork 3, but outside of that its almost all support and I've climbed at least 200 pts after my ranked MM 10 games were done. So it is possible, but its also luck based; I've had a bad string lately in my last 10 games. But before that, it was like a 10 game winstreak playing CM/disruptor/venge/veno exclusively. (4200 rating)
Maybe my losing streak lately is because I am trying to learn new support heroes like Bane, ShadShaman, Mirana and Dazzle.. ones I've never played often before. But I have over 80% winrate if I pick CM and Disruptor, even vs pro players. They are my "go-to" heroes.
I just find playing 1 position boring as hell, and 2 is arguably the hardest position in the game (and playing less than 10 hours a week, I can't learn all those heroes at 4500+ easily anymore)
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Starting to believe some of these posters that comes across as whiny has something in common with each other
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On December 26 2013 05:44 Kupon3ss wrote:
the fact is that everybody is shit, even pro team's are like 6 months behind the meta
weilin '17000 metas ahead' tan
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So how big is the 10 game calibration influence on your rating? I went 3-7 and ended up with 4k
edit: stopped playing for 3~ months and came back this week playing so badly lol
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On December 26 2013 15:14 Sif_ wrote:
So how big is the 10 game calibration influence on your rating? I went 3-7 and ended up with 4k
edit: stopped playing for 3~ months and came back this week playing so badly lol
I think its pretty big.. I was matching first page/pros before the patch, went 2-8 in my 10 game calibration and now got 4000. So pretty big let down
(note to self: dont play when a patch just comes out with new hero comes out, you'll get stuck in games where people pick him and have no idea how to use him, ending up in mass loses)
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On December 26 2013 15:22 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 15:14 Sif_ wrote:
So how big is the 10 game calibration influence on your rating? I went 3-7 and ended up with 4k
edit: stopped playing for 3~ months and came back this week playing so badly lol I think its pretty big.. I was matching first page/pros before the patch, went 2-8 in my 10 game calibration and now got 4000. So pretty big let down (note to self: dont play when a patch just comes out with new hero comes out, you'll get stuck in games where people pick him and have no idea how to use him, ending up in mass loses)
Yeah i guess we'll both have to just slowly climb up then! I'm nowhere near what you claim yourself to be tho! haha
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On December 26 2013 10:28 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 09:54 Laserist wrote:
There is no way to climb up the MMR rating by playing 5th role supports. My supporting is better than my mid or carry but I lose a good percentage of my support games. Fails, feeds, blames etc.. 4K MMR is nowhere near what valve has stated. this has been proven false time and time again. Plenty of players have gotten to the top of ladders playing exclusively support. Even players who are not necessarily support players like fear have done it on great success. at the top of the ladder, individual mechanics actually play less of a role while understanding and game sense are even more important
But it is EASIER to climb the ladder as a mid player, I would say. The amount of impact you can have in any given game is usually dictated by the role you play, supports can do a shitload(especially chen/ench players), but generally speaking as a mid player you're gonna have(at least statistically) more success in this regard.
The point is that as a mid role, or maybe even carry/suicide to some extent massing games will reward you more mechanically, as a support you will generally require a lot of game sense, game knowledge, decision making - things that are quite hard to improve upon and which usually result only in minor victories that are important at a higher level of play.
I think even 2009 said in one of his VODs that ladder system of any kind favors a mid role.
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On December 26 2013 08:03 cecek wrote:
If you're really stomping games hard, which you should be if you're playing games 1k points below your level, I think the smurf detection will kick in and make you progress much faster. I imagine if a 5k player started playing on a 4k account, he would be back at 5k in under 30 games, easily. Of course I don't have a souce for that.
I'm not complaining just noting. I also tend to lose more for losses than i gain for win, so it's even harder. And it doesn't really matter if you stomp 14-0-9 with Lina (http://dotabuff.com/matches/440316879) after 2 consecutive wins (stomps with drow 5-0-3 and AA 11-9-24), your next game will still be a +24 (-28) kind of game. IF smurf detection is still active, it need much more than just 3 stomp wins to activate itself, whereas it work nicely in your first 10 games where you can get to 4500+ from 3000 in 4 games. I also think that MM it's placing people where it should, but really gaining rating is extremely slow.
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On December 26 2013 00:44 Treefrog42 wrote:
My solo MMR is 3316 I think. Is that good? Apparently it's top 10%.
I don't get this? Why give two cahoots about what your MMR is? Are you having fun, close games? Or are you having games where you feel like you're getting paired with 4 shitters? If you have the first why is it relevant what your MMR is?
On December 25 2013 22:14 w.s wrote:
How surprised I am to see that the majority of people opposing the system are people low ranked that believe they are much better than their current rank and call it "elo hell". Why don't you just face it? The system works and you got placed exactly where you belong and if you weren't then winning games should be easy right since you're so much better? I was always on one of the first few pages pre ranked and that's the case now as well.
How surprised I am that the majority of the people who support the system are people who have a high MMR that re-enforces their belief that they aren't as shit as they actually are.
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On December 26 2013 22:02 juracule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 00:44 Treefrog42 wrote:
My solo MMR is 3316 I think. Is that good? Apparently it's top 10%. I don't get this? Why give two cahoots about what your MMR is? Are you having fun, close games? Or are you having games where you feel like you're getting paired with 4 shitters? If you have the first why is it relevant what your MMR is? Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 22:14 w.s wrote:
How surprised I am to see that the majority of people opposing the system are people low ranked that believe they are much better than their current rank and call it "elo hell". Why don't you just face it? The system works and you got placed exactly where you belong and if you weren't then winning games should be easy right since you're so much better? I was always on one of the first few pages pre ranked and that's the case now as well. How surprised I am that the majority of the people who support the system are people who have a high MMR that re-enforces their belief that they aren't as shit as they actually are.
ure right, the system is actually awful and i dont know why anyone wud think its good.
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On December 26 2013 08:03 cecek wrote:
If you're really stomping games hard, which you should be if you're playing games 1k points below your level, I think the smurf detection will kick in and make you progress much faster. I imagine if a 5k player started playing on a 4k account, he would be back at 5k in under 30 games, easily. Of course I don't have a souce for that.
Basic math disproves that already. On average you lose or gain about 26-27 MMR points. 30x27 = 810 and this is with 100% winrate. So much for easily in under 30 games.
Lets assume a 60% winrate (which is already p good seeing as the worst player matters more than the good player on a team). 60% of your 30 games is 18. 18-12 = 6. 6x27 = 162. Congrats after 30 games with 60% winrate you gained +162 MMR.
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On December 26 2013 22:02 juracule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 00:44 Treefrog42 wrote:
My solo MMR is 3316 I think. Is that good? Apparently it's top 10%. I don't get this? Why give two cahoots about what your MMR is? Are you having fun, close games? Or are you having games where you feel like you're getting paired with 4 shitters? If you have the first why is it relevant what your MMR is? Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 22:14 w.s wrote:
How surprised I am to see that the majority of people opposing the system are people low ranked that believe they are much better than their current rank and call it "elo hell". Why don't you just face it? The system works and you got placed exactly where you belong and if you weren't then winning games should be easy right since you're so much better? I was always on one of the first few pages pre ranked and that's the case now as well. How surprised I am that the majority of the people who support the system are people who have a high MMR that re-enforces their belief that they aren't as shit as they actually are.
Because some people like an idea of how well they're doing or whatever with a visible rating
and beesa pls stop deleting me from friendlist ;_;
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You can't win a straight 30 games starting from 1K MMR deficit. You play with another 9 people, some games will be ruined by someone at least. This is what I observe in 4K MMR. Not saying people are shit, just occasional game ruiners.
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On December 26 2013 23:08 Stancel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 22:02 juracule wrote:On December 26 2013 00:44 Treefrog42 wrote:
My solo MMR is 3316 I think. Is that good? Apparently it's top 10%. I don't get this? Why give two cahoots about what your MMR is? Are you having fun, close games? Or are you having games where you feel like you're getting paired with 4 shitters? If you have the first why is it relevant what your MMR is? On December 25 2013 22:14 w.s wrote:
How surprised I am to see that the majority of people opposing the system are people low ranked that believe they are much better than their current rank and call it "elo hell". Why don't you just face it? The system works and you got placed exactly where you belong and if you weren't then winning games should be easy right since you're so much better? I was always on one of the first few pages pre ranked and that's the case now as well. How surprised I am that the majority of the people who support the system are people who have a high MMR that re-enforces their belief that they aren't as shit as they actually are. Because some people like an idea of how well they're doing or whatever with a visible rating and beesa pls stop deleting me from friendlist ;_;
stop changing ur name, its like some ppl not only change their names but also their avatars.
ive finished enough jigsaw puzzles when i was a kid my brain cant handle anymore. readd me
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On December 26 2013 23:17 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 23:08 Stancel wrote:On December 26 2013 22:02 juracule wrote:On December 26 2013 00:44 Treefrog42 wrote:
My solo MMR is 3316 I think. Is that good? Apparently it's top 10%. I don't get this? Why give two cahoots about what your MMR is? Are you having fun, close games? Or are you having games where you feel like you're getting paired with 4 shitters? If you have the first why is it relevant what your MMR is? On December 25 2013 22:14 w.s wrote:
How surprised I am to see that the majority of people opposing the system are people low ranked that believe they are much better than their current rank and call it "elo hell". Why don't you just face it? The system works and you got placed exactly where you belong and if you weren't then winning games should be easy right since you're so much better? I was always on one of the first few pages pre ranked and that's the case now as well. How surprised I am that the majority of the people who support the system are people who have a high MMR that re-enforces their belief that they aren't as shit as they actually are. Because some people like an idea of how well they're doing or whatever with a visible rating and beesa pls stop deleting me from friendlist ;_; stop changing ur name, its like some ppl not only change their names but also their avatars. ive finished enough jigsaw puzzles when i was a kid my brain cant handle anymore. readd me
People who change their steam names are obnoxious.
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On December 26 2013 23:09 Laserist wrote:
You can't win a straight 30 games starting from 1K MMR deficit. You play with another 9 people, some games will be ruined by someone at least. This is what I observe in 4K MMR. Not saying people are shit, just occasional game ruiners.
What I observed at 4k MMR was double quelling blade dk. I consistently get people like that.
what's even worse is that we won that game.
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On December 26 2013 23:34 juracule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 23:09 Laserist wrote:
You can't win a straight 30 games starting from 1K MMR deficit. You play with another 9 people, some games will be ruined by someone at least. This is what I observe in 4K MMR. Not saying people are shit, just occasional game ruiners. What I observed at 4k MMR was double quelling blade dk. I consistently get people like that. what's even worse is that we won that game.
%95+ guys.
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On December 26 2013 23:02 juracule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2013 08:03 cecek wrote:
If you're really stomping games hard, which you should be if you're playing games 1k points below your level, I think the smurf detection will kick in and make you progress much faster. I imagine if a 5k player started playing on a 4k account, he would be back at 5k in under 30 games, easily. Of course I don't have a souce for that. Basic math disproves that already. On average you lose or gain about 26-27 MMR points. 30x27 = 810 and this is with 100% winrate. So much for easily in under 30 games. Lets assume a 60% winrate (which is already p good seeing as the worst player matters more than the good player on a team). 60% of your 30 games is 18. 18-12 = 6. 6x27 = 162. Congrats after 30 games with 60% winrate you gained +162 MMR.
you gain/lose 25 or so points when you have a high "certainty" due to the your average game being around 50% and the game believing that's where you belong. Once you actually start going on winning/losing streaks that "certainty" increases and you're able to gain/lose much more points as long as you're ACTUALLY not the rating you deserve.
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EPT
