On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote: Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick?
Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though.
edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
Manpad is a short for man-portable air-defense, so US stinger falls into this category too.
"russian stingers" as in "not an unguided rpg", but dedicated anti-air weapon, pretty sophisticated stuff. First, i thought "maybe on of the ukrainian soldiers stole some when he was deserting" or something, but that can be ruled out, reading that the FOF-systems would not allow an ukrainian IGLA to lock on a ukrainian Hind.
So, again, what options are there to get IGLAs that "easily"?
On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote: Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick?
Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though.
edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
I think militia had access to any sort of weaponry, given the fact that the city was under their control. The current militia, as far as I can judge by their video presentations available on youtube and broadcasted on the news, are former military soldiers. The way they speak and behave does not look like they are regular Russian soldiers at all. To me they are just retired army men who think that defending against Kiev with weapons is the right thing to do. Here is the video of Mi24 being hit.
Should I also point out that the man who shoots says to the woman in the background "our guys hit it". The woman says that Mi24 was hit from "муха", colloquial for RPG-18.
And how do you explain them getting their hands on the russian anti air weapon? Also nowhere in the video did I hear "our guys hit it" but I did hear "so they won't fly" but my russian isn't as good as someone who lives there.
On May 04 2014 02:11 hunts wrote: And how do you explain them getting their hands on the russian anti air weapon? Also nowhere in the video did I hear "our guys hit it" but I did hear "so they won't fly" but my russian isn't as good as someone who lives there.
at 1:04 he says "so what, our guys hit it", the woman replies "I know".
I don't know, maybe Russia secretly supports them with weaponry, but I think this is a little bit crazy. They are former army men, surely they know where to get a manpad.
On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote: Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick?
Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though.
edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
I think militia had access to any sort of weaponry, given the fact that the city was under their control. The current militia, as far as I can judge by their video presentations available on youtube and broadcasted on the news, are former military soldiers. The way they speak and behave does not look like they are regular Russian soldiers at all. To me they are just retired army men who think that defending against Kiev with weapons is the right thing to do. Here is the video of Mi24 being hit.
Should I also point out that the man who shoots says to the woman in the background "our guys hit it". The woman says that Mi24 was hit from "муха", colloquial for RPG-18.
Thanks for the video, didn't see it before. The weapon fired is not a RPG-18, since the helicopter is way to high to be hit with a unguided missile (it looks like at least in the video, it's my opinion). I mean, yes, we all know that it's possible to shoot down helicopters via unguided missiles, but that's if the helicopter is stationary and low (unloading troops). The weapon is not from ukrainian military bases, since their guided stuff would not lock on those helicopters (friend-or-foe systems). I do not know how easy it is to manipulate that, but i don't think a untrained person can just use a manpad willy nilly.
On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote: Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick?
Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though.
edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
I think militia had access to any sort of weaponry, given the fact that the city was under their control. The current militia, as far as I can judge by their video presentations available on youtube and broadcasted on the news, are former military soldiers. The way they speak and behave does not look like they are regular Russian soldiers at all. To me they are just retired army men who think that defending against Kiev with weapons is the right thing to do. Here is the video of Mi24 being hit.
Should I also point out that the man who shoots says to the woman in the background "our guys hit it". The woman says that Mi24 was hit from "муха", colloquial for RPG-18.
Thanks for the video, didn't see it before. The weapon fired is not a RPG-18, since the helicopter is way to high to be hit with a unguided missile (it looks like at least in the video, it's my opinion). I mean, yes, we all know that it's possible to shoot down helicopters via unguided missiles, but that's if the helicopter is stationary and low (unloading troops). The weapon is not from ukrainian military bases, since their guided stuff would not lock on those helicopters (friend-or-foe systems). I do not know how easy it is to manipulate that, but i don't think a untrained person can just use a manpad willy nilly.
If it is an advanced Russian weaponry they used and if it is Russian soldiers who used it, then it's time to get worried. I think that these guys have access to such weapons, how is another question. We probably will never know.
On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote: Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick?
Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though.
edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
I think militia had access to any sort of weaponry, given the fact that the city was under their control. The current militia, as far as I can judge by their video presentations available on youtube and broadcasted on the news, are former military soldiers. The way they speak and behave does not look like they are regular Russian soldiers at all. To me they are just retired army men who think that defending against Kiev with weapons is the right thing to do. Here is the video of Mi24 being hit.
Should I also point out that the man who shoots says to the woman in the background "our guys hit it". The woman says that Mi24 was hit from "муха", colloquial for RPG-18.
Thanks for the video, didn't see it before. The weapon fired is not a RPG-18, since the helicopter is way to high to be hit with a unguided missile (it looks like at least in the video, it's my opinion). I mean, yes, we all know that it's possible to shoot down helicopters via unguided missiles, but that's if the helicopter is stationary and low (unloading troops). The weapon is not from ukrainian military bases, since their guided stuff would not lock on those helicopters (friend-or-foe systems). I do not know how easy it is to manipulate that, but i don't think a untrained person can just use a manpad willy nilly.
If it is an advanced Russian weaponry they used and if it is Russian soldiers who used it, then it's time to get worried. I think that these guys have access to such weapons, how is another question. We probably will never know.
That's not really what i'm thinking. I don't think it's actual russian soldiers shooting those weapons. I do believe however, that these are not ukrainian IGLAs, but russian ones. Read careful: i don't suggest that these came from putin himself. I don't think that he would be stupid enough to do so.
I agree, "how" is the interesting part, and also on the "we'll never know". But we can take away from this, that these (as in, the ones who shot at the helicopters) seperatists are not only housewives and grandfathers with hunting rifles, but pretty much insurgents.
On May 04 2014 02:11 hunts wrote: And how do you explain them getting their hands on the russian anti air weapon? Also nowhere in the video did I hear "our guys hit it" but I did hear "so they won't fly" but my russian isn't as good as someone who lives there.
at 1:04 he says "so what, our guys hit it", the woman replies "I know".
I don't know, maybe Russia secretly supports them with weaponry, but I think this is a little bit crazy. They are former army men, surely they know where to get a manpad.
You're right he does say that, I missed it. Sure they know where to get weapons, but if said weapons are russian weapons that ukraine wouldn't have, then they had to have gotten those weapons from russia.
russia probably learned from the obvious embarrassment of having properly geared troops in crimea and unable to round that lie and now has more deniable presence in eastern ukraine.
Although little information is available on the MANPADS used, they are likely to have been an Igla, either the earlier 9K310 Igla-1 (SA-16 'Gimlet'), or the later 9K38 Igla (SA-18 'Grouse'), which are in service with both the Ukrainian and Russian armed forces.
Seeing MANPADS outside of formal armed forces has historically been very rare, and their potential proliferation has been a cause of great concern to many nations. The MoD stated that the "fact of the [MANPAD] use against the Ukrainian Armed Forces testifies that there are well-trained and armed groups are currently acting in Donetsk Oblast." However, the use of MANPADS in the conflict does not necessarily demonstrate the involvement of Russian forces in the incident. In early March local media reported that Igla systems had gone missing from two Ukrainian military units near Lvov.
On May 04 2014 02:47 hunts wrote: You're right he does say that, I missed it. Sure they know where to get weapons, but if said weapons are russian weapons that ukraine wouldn't have, then they had to have gotten those weapons from russia.
Those BMD's that the separatists jacked a couple of weeks back come with a standard load of roughly 2-4 launchers per vehicle (even taking into account the poor state that the Ukrainian military is in).
And don't forget that the whole region is awash with Soviet-era weapons, so seeing the separatists with AK-74's, Kornets and Iglas is not news. If they were armed with newer AK-107s on the other hand...
On May 04 2014 02:47 hunts wrote: You're right he does say that, I missed it. Sure they know where to get weapons, but if said weapons are russian weapons that ukraine wouldn't have, then they had to have gotten those weapons from russia.
Those BMD's that the separatists jacked a couple of weeks back come with a standard load of roughly 2-4 launchers per vehicle (even taking into account the poor state that the Ukrainian military is in).
And don't forget that the whole region is awash with Soviet-era weapons, so seeing the separatists with AK-74's, Kornets and Iglas is not news. If they were armed with newer AK-107s on the other hand...
To my knowledge, BMDs are not fitted with portable launchers, especially not if there's nothing to shoot at. BMD1s can have a IGLA-launchpod, but not by default, and not portable (turret-mounted).
That aside, if it is true what rt.com "reports" (as usual, no sources or smth, just "some guy who we can't describe or name"), IGLAs (9k38) were stolen from a ukrainian base. This model has IFF, so you should not be able to shoot a ukrainian helicopter with it.
edit: not to mention, even if ukrainian soldiers gave out those IGLAs and somehow deactivated the IFF (which would be weird, since the BMDs were given up with the reason "we can't shoot our own people", which i btw agree to, but then to give out weapons to again "shoot their own people" would be.. weird, at least), they did a huge disservice to their cause.
People with anti air missiles are not protesters. No sane person on earth would argue that a "protester" is to be identified by the anti air missiles he carries - "they" (i consider those basically the same as the hooligans are for euromaidan, an opportunistic splintergroup, not the "antimaidan" in general) are combatants.
Correction: BMPs, not BMDs; they definitely have them stored in the cargo compartment. Also IFF interrogators aren't integrated by default into the launchers, nor do they stop you from locking and firing.
As for the giving up thing...well they didn't exactly have much of a choice considering it was a foolish order to begin with. Shouldn't have gone in there in the first place when they knew what was going to happen.
On May 04 2014 05:27 zeo wrote: It seems that the names of the girls that made the molotov cocktails that caused the deaths of 38 people have been uncovered
There is a special kind of hell for these people, 38 counts of manslaughter.
it's not manslaughter... manslaughter is accidental death. Manslaughter implies accidental death, no intent of killing or heat of passion killing. 2nd degree murder is, is murder not planned in advance but intent of killing and 1st degree is premeditated murder. Although 1st degree and 2nd degree murder and manslaughter varies vastly between countries, some will distinguish that accidental death isn't always manslaughter, say during a sexual assault would count as 1st degree murder no matter what. And some don't even have something that would fall under manslaughter, it's either 1st or 2nd degree. And ofc the name varies not everyone call it a degree, instead something like grave murder and negligent murder.
On May 04 2014 05:27 zeo wrote: It seems that the names of the girls that made the molotov cocktails that caused the deaths of 38 people have been uncovered
There is a special kind of hell for these people, 38 counts of manslaughter.
it's not manslaughter... manslaughter is accidental death. Manslaughter implies accidental death, no intent of killing or heat of passion killing. 2nd degree murder is, is murder not planned in advance but intent of killing and 1st degree is premeditated murder. Although 1st degree and 2nd degree murder and manslaughter varies vastly between countries, some will distinguish that accidental death isn't always manslaughter, say during a sexual assault would count as 1st degree murder no matter what. And some don't even have something that would fall under manslaughter, it's either 1st or 2nd degree. And ofc the name varies not everyone call it a degree, instead something like grave murder and negligent murder.
So where in your opinion do these girls fit? Building cocktails with the intent of hurting people and said cocktails being used in the murder of 38 people.
I was under the impression they could be charged with manslaughter, pre-meditated murder maybe. Though murder was on the minds of maidan supporters that actually threw the molotov's we don't know if the girls were in on it.
On May 04 2014 05:27 zeo wrote: It seems that the names of the girls that made the molotov cocktails that caused the deaths of 38 people have been uncovered
There is a special kind of hell for these people, 38 counts of manslaughter.
it's not manslaughter... manslaughter is accidental death. Manslaughter implies accidental death, no intent of killing or heat of passion killing. 2nd degree murder is, is murder not planned in advance but intent of killing and 1st degree is premeditated murder. Although 1st degree and 2nd degree murder and manslaughter varies vastly between countries, some will distinguish that accidental death isn't always manslaughter, say during a sexual assault would count as 1st degree murder no matter what. And some don't even have something that would fall under manslaughter, it's either 1st or 2nd degree. And ofc the name varies not everyone call it a degree, instead something like grave murder and negligent murder.
So where in your opinion do these girls fit? Building cocktails with the intent of hurting people and said cocktails being used in the murder of 38 people.
I was under the impression they could be charged with manslaughter, pre-meditated murder maybe. Though murder was on the minds of maidan supporters that actually threw the molotov's we don't know if the girls were in on it.
38 counts of accessory to murder, and a bunch of other charges relating to explosives and such. I don't know the specifics of Ukranian law. Whoever threw the cocktails can be charged with second degree murder (the prosecuter might try for first degree, but it's unlikely).
If they have no yet been charged then I think it is very dangerous that their identities are posted online. In the UK I would expect whoever named them would end up in court. I am not defending them or whoever did it, but it's risky naming people before they are charged in case they turn out to be the wrong people.
On May 04 2014 05:27 zeo wrote: It seems that the names of the girls that made the molotov cocktails that caused the deaths of 38 people have been uncovered
There is a special kind of hell for these people, 38 counts of manslaughter.
Read their pages in vk.com, already deleted now. This is horrible, they are just kids, stupid kids. But what is more scaring is the comments, comments posted by Odessans with promises to find, burn, kill. Their home addresses, everything has been found and exposed to public.
We may of course speculate on the subject of whether there are Russia trained separatists in Ukraine or whether Russia indirectly or directly helps separatists, but what I see is mostly a civil war.
On May 04 2014 05:27 zeo wrote: It seems that the names of the girls that made the molotov cocktails that caused the deaths of 38 people have been uncovered
There is a special kind of hell for these people, 38 counts of manslaughter.
it's not manslaughter... manslaughter is accidental death. Manslaughter implies accidental death, no intent of killing or heat of passion killing. 2nd degree murder is, is murder not planned in advance but intent of killing and 1st degree is premeditated murder. Although 1st degree and 2nd degree murder and manslaughter varies vastly between countries, some will distinguish that accidental death isn't always manslaughter, say during a sexual assault would count as 1st degree murder no matter what. And some don't even have something that would fall under manslaughter, it's either 1st or 2nd degree. And ofc the name varies not everyone call it a degree, instead something like grave murder and negligent murder.
So where in your opinion do these girls fit? Building cocktails with the intent of hurting people and said cocktails being used in the murder of 38 people.
I was under the impression they could be charged with manslaughter, pre-meditated murder maybe. Though murder was on the minds of maidan supporters that actually threw the molotov's we don't know if the girls were in on it.
38 counts of accessory to murder, and a bunch of other charges relating to explosives and such. I don't know the specifics of Ukranian law. Whoever threw the cocktails can be charged with second degree murder (the prosecuter might try for first degree, but it's unlikely).
If they have no yet been charged then I think it is very dangerous that their identities are posted online. In the UK I would expect whoever named them would end up in court. I am not defending them or whoever did it, but it's risky naming people before they are charged in case they turn out to be the wrong people.
The only way they could be charged with murder would be 1st degree murder, under conspiracy to murder(w.e this would be called in ukrainian law essentially murder committed by a group sharing the same goal). But it be very difficult to prove their intent in making the cocktails is to murder people with them short of them saying it aloud.
EPT
