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On May 04 2014 00:57 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Why would Russia bother invading Crimea, it changed nothing for Russia and will cost them billions.Why did Putin provide free money to his puppet Yanukovich and tried to tie Ukraine into the 'Eurasian Union', it would cost Russia billions and provide no benefits. If you are cynical then be cynical, the Russian economy entering a period of stagnation last autumn that is still ongoing and Putin, further hurt by demonstrations against his return by people he thought were his biggest supporters, needs another successful foreign policy adventure to distract from the stagnation while developing some kind of ideology that rests on him being president for life.
Here is one of versions - http://en.itar-tass.com/russianpress/710813. There are rumours Yanukovich has visited China and signed the contract in 2014.
The most amusing thing is that Putin's ratings and Russian people's devotion to his politics were never higher than during Crimea crisis if we believe the social polls results.
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On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Basically it looks like the officials have already decided to join EU and de facto lose their economical independence. If I were a citizen I would fight such regime. Or just abandon the damned place.
Russia already decided to invade a part of Ukraine, and Ukraine did not even try to deal with it with their own forces. You can put whatever spin on it you want, but Russia forcibly annexed a part of Ukraine less than two months ago.
Also, Ukraine is a long way from joining the EU. After this whole mess, do you honestly think that the EU would let them join?
You would not fight such a regime for economical reasons. You would fight such a regime for nationalistic reasons.
I was born in England and moved to Wales as a child. At that time I did of Wales and England as separate countries as it was all just Great Britain to me, and that was a harsh lesson. As a result, I value state sovereignty more than nationalistic identity, which is why I disagree with your views. Nationalism is ugly and the Ukrainian people need to be Ukrainian and not Russian.
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On May 03 2014 23:58 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?
They just don't care and you support them like they do.
The west did actually choose not to support ultranationalist and withdrew its support, we stopped supporting russia with their ultra nationalist violence and propaganda.
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On May 04 2014 01:02 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 00:57 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Why would Russia bother invading Crimea, it changed nothing for Russia and will cost them billions.Why did Putin provide free money to his puppet Yanukovich and tried to tie Ukraine into the 'Eurasian Union', it would cost Russia billions and provide no benefits. If you are cynical then be cynical, the Russian economy entering a period of stagnation last autumn that is still ongoing and Putin, further hurt by demonstrations against his return by people he thought were his biggest supporters, needs another successful foreign policy adventure to distract from the stagnation while developing some kind of ideology that rests on him being president for life. Here is one of versions - http://en.itar-tass.com/russianpress/710813. There are rumours Yanukovich has visited China and signed the contract in 2014. So now instead of having foreigners pay for modernization of Crimea the Russian citizens will pay, that is much better, genius of Putin
The most amusing thing is that Putin's ratings and Russian people's devotion to his politics were never higher than during Crimea crisis if we believe the social polls results.
Like I said, if you want to be cynical, be cynical, Putin's foreign adventure is a nice popularity boost in a period when economic development is grinding to a halt.
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On May 04 2014 00:47 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 00:37 Mc wrote:On May 03 2014 23:38 zeo wrote:On May 03 2014 23:15 Mc wrote:
@zeo
Could you give a source for "all journalists are barred from entering Kramatorsk"?? I'm curious if this is true. https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/462522863099342848/photo/1No one in or out means no one is allowed inside. I've been looking for correspondents in Kramatorsk, could you please post some sources? Your statement is over the top since it seemed to imply that journalists specifically were not allowed to enter. You might be correct, but I haven't heard any reports of journalists failing to gain entry. I assume all the entrances are being manned by the Ukrainian army so it's possible that they could have in place a ban on people entering the city until the military operation is over. No facts, backing that up though. I wouldn't be surprised either way. Regardless, we should be able to get information about the city since it has 170,000 thousand residents and obviously some journalists amongst them. It is also quite probable that there are a few foreign journalists in the city, even if the army isn't allowing people to enter the city. So you don't have any evidence that journalists are in Kramatorsk? You implied in your earlier post that people were reporting from inside Kramatorsk, I genuinely want to know what the hell is happening in there.
I can't find the other link I had but here you go :
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/03/ukraine-crisis-kramatorsk-security-idUSL6N0NP0C520140503
Clearly states "Local television showed pictures of armoured personnel carriers moving through the town."
But I agree, we don't have much reliable information about what is going on in Kramatorsk right now (local reporters report in Ukrainian, and then international news might reference them but not give the full story). We should have a clearer picture as time passes. No point arguing- I just get annoyed when supposition is passed off as fact. So please be more clear in the future  I'll try to do the same.
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On May 04 2014 01:06 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Basically it looks like the officials have already decided to join EU and de facto lose their economical independence. If I were a citizen I would fight such regime. Or just abandon the damned place. Russia already decided to invade a part of Ukraine, and Ukraine did not even try to deal with it with their own forces. You can put whatever spin on it you want, but Russia forcibly annexed a part of Ukraine less than two months ago. Also, Ukraine is a long way from joining the EU. After this whole mess, do you honestly think that the EU would let them join? You would not fight such a regime for economical reasons. You would fight such a regime for nationalistic reasons.I was born in England and moved to Wales as a child. At that time I did of Wales and England as separate countries as it was all just Great Britain to me, and that was a harsh lesson. As a result, I value state sovereignty more than nationalistic identity, which is why I disagree with your views. Nationalism is ugly and the Ukrainian people need should be Ukrainian and not Russian.
First of all, let's be clear: I do not support Russia's politics in any kind of way. I am saying that EU and USA representatives, who oppose Russia on paper, aren't doing the right thing to stop the confilct at all costs right now, because current situation provides benefits for them. And people are dying left and right at the same time, that's a democratic way of handling the things indeed.
Ukrainians can't revive their economy without the injections of someone else's money, so it's a basically a deal. Heck, that was the reason Maidan protest started in a first place.
Secondly, I don't get the highlighted part of text.
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On May 04 2014 01:09 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 23:58 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?
They just don't care and you support them like they do.
The west did actually choose not to support ultranationalist and withdrew its support, we stopped supporting russia with their ultra nationalist violence and propaganda.
Have you seen Odessa news today? I am going to bet that no one of the murderers would be punished for their crimes by current Ukranian government, well, because it's officially a civil war from now on. Let's be honest, the tragedy could've been prevented if anybody in EU & USA did really care, instead of endlessly threatening Russia with sanctions.
You support the ultranationalist government (Ukraine) who can't do anything about the civil war on their home turf, there is nothing to write home about. Has anything remotely similar ever happened in history before?
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On May 04 2014 01:12 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:02 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:57 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Why would Russia bother invading Crimea, it changed nothing for Russia and will cost them billions.Why did Putin provide free money to his puppet Yanukovich and tried to tie Ukraine into the 'Eurasian Union', it would cost Russia billions and provide no benefits. If you are cynical then be cynical, the Russian economy entering a period of stagnation last autumn that is still ongoing and Putin, further hurt by demonstrations against his return by people he thought were his biggest supporters, needs another successful foreign policy adventure to distract from the stagnation while developing some kind of ideology that rests on him being president for life. Here is one of versions - http://en.itar-tass.com/russianpress/710813. There are rumours Yanukovich has visited China and signed the contract in 2014. So now instead of having foreigners pay for modernization of Crimea the Russian citizens will pay, that is much better, genius of Putin Show nested quote +
The most amusing thing is that Putin's ratings and Russian people's devotion to his politics were never higher than during Crimea crisis if we believe the social polls results.
Like I said, if you want to be cynical, be cynical, Putin's foreign adventure is a nice popularity boost in a period when economic development is grinding to a halt.
Putin could do fucking economic miracles with all that money income from gas and other natural resources. Instead he chooses to spend it for oppressive measures to keep OMON and other forces happy and ready to squash any domestic enemies.
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On May 04 2014 01:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:09 hunts wrote:On May 03 2014 23:58 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?
They just don't care and you support them like they do.
The west did actually choose not to support ultranationalist and withdrew its support, we stopped supporting russia with their ultra nationalist violence and propaganda. Have you seen Odessa news today? I am going to bet that no one of the murderers would be punished for their crimes by current Ukranian government, well, because it's officially a civil war from now on. It could've went different way if anybody in EU & USA did really care, instead of endlessly threatening Russia with sanctions. You support the ultranationalist government (Ukraine) who can't do anything about the civil war on their home turf, there is nothing to write home about. Has anything remotely similar ever happened in history before?
It's not a civil war when the agressors are backed by russia or are russian soldiers. The only ultranatioalist government in this whole fiasco is russia. I will now however stop feeding the trolls, and strongly urge others to do the same.
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On May 04 2014 01:18 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:06 hzflank wrote:On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Basically it looks like the officials have already decided to join EU and de facto lose their economical independence. If I were a citizen I would fight such regime. Or just abandon the damned place. Russia already decided to invade a part of Ukraine, and Ukraine did not even try to deal with it with their own forces. You can put whatever spin on it you want, but Russia forcibly annexed a part of Ukraine less than two months ago. Also, Ukraine is a long way from joining the EU. After this whole mess, do you honestly think that the EU would let them join? You would not fight such a regime for economical reasons. You would fight such a regime for nationalistic reasons.I was born in England and moved to Wales as a child. At that time I did of Wales and England as separate countries as it was all just Great Britain to me, and that was a harsh lesson. As a result, I value state sovereignty more than nationalistic identity, which is why I disagree with your views. Nationalism is ugly and the Ukrainian people need should be Ukrainian and not Russian. First of all, let's be clear: I do not support Russia's politics in any kind of way. I am saying that EU and USA representatives, who oppose Russia on paper, aren't doing the right thing to stop the confilct at all costs right now, because current situation provides benefits for them. And people are dying left and right at the same time, that's a democratic way of handling the things indeed. Ukrainians can't revive their economy without the injections of someone else's money, so it's a basically a deal. Heck, that was the reason Maidan protest started in a first place. Secondly, I don't get the highlighted part of text.
As for the highlighted part:
There are well armed militias in Ukraine taking over state buildings. No one would do that for economical reasons. No one joins a militia because they disagree with their governments economics.
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On May 04 2014 01:12 Sub40APM wrote:
So now instead of having foreigners pay for modernization of Crimea the Russian citizens will pay, that is much better, genius of Putin
Well that the Russian leadership as well as the majority of the population values nationalistic adventures over long term economic prosperity should be pretty clear by now and is really worrisome. It's not unironic that Russian supporters call everybody else fascists while Russia itself is going into that direction incredibly fast.
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On May 04 2014 01:29 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:12 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 01:02 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:57 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:53 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:49 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 00:41 Sub40APM wrote:On May 04 2014 00:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Listen to the speeches current officials give: they don't care about anything other than their national identity, and think it's all Russian plot to destroy their country, which is childish, to say at least. That's not how the rational thinking citizens want them to react.
. What are you talking about, first Crimea was occupied and annexed, and then suddenly a series of armed groups take over strategic cities in Easter Ukraine. In between Putin goes on Russian television and declared that race can be used as a foreign policy tool and proclaims that Ukraine is an invented country. Its not childish to be concerned about Russian takeover, especially when all efforts have been made to prevent an actual elections to be held. That's naive. This is the politics we're talking about, remember? Everyone has a different agenda in their mind and on their tongue. The problem is that Ukraine's economy is ruined beyond any autonomic means of recovery. How is it naive, because the country has witnessed a take over of one of its provinces with armed forces, the placement of more armed forces on its border and a hostile leader announcing that he has the right to invade anyone he wants to protect a specific race. Well, I may sound cynical, but the truth is if Russia decides to invade Ukraine, Ukraine has zero chance to deal it with their own forces. Why should they even bother then? Why would Russia bother invading Crimea, it changed nothing for Russia and will cost them billions.Why did Putin provide free money to his puppet Yanukovich and tried to tie Ukraine into the 'Eurasian Union', it would cost Russia billions and provide no benefits. If you are cynical then be cynical, the Russian economy entering a period of stagnation last autumn that is still ongoing and Putin, further hurt by demonstrations against his return by people he thought were his biggest supporters, needs another successful foreign policy adventure to distract from the stagnation while developing some kind of ideology that rests on him being president for life. Here is one of versions - http://en.itar-tass.com/russianpress/710813. There are rumours Yanukovich has visited China and signed the contract in 2014. So now instead of having foreigners pay for modernization of Crimea the Russian citizens will pay, that is much better, genius of Putin
The most amusing thing is that Putin's ratings and Russian people's devotion to his politics were never higher than during Crimea crisis if we believe the social polls results.
Like I said, if you want to be cynical, be cynical, Putin's foreign adventure is a nice popularity boost in a period when economic development is grinding to a halt. Putin could do fucking economic miracles with all that money income from gas and other natural resources. Instead he chooses to spend it for oppressive measures to keep OMON and other forces happy and ready to squash any domestic enemies. I dont think he could do that without undermining his own position. Which is why there is extra focus on ideology now. Limits of autocracy and all that.
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Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
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On May 04 2014 01:33 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 01:09 hunts wrote:On May 03 2014 23:58 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?
They just don't care and you support them like they do.
The west did actually choose not to support ultranationalist and withdrew its support, we stopped supporting russia with their ultra nationalist violence and propaganda. Have you seen Odessa news today? I am going to bet that no one of the murderers would be punished for their crimes by current Ukranian government, well, because it's officially a civil war from now on. It could've went different way if anybody in EU & USA did really care, instead of endlessly threatening Russia with sanctions. You support the ultranationalist government (Ukraine) who can't do anything about the civil war on their home turf, there is nothing to write home about. Has anything remotely similar ever happened in history before? It's not a civil war when the agressors are backed by russia or are russian soldiers. The only ultranatioalist government in this whole fiasco is russia. I will now however stop feeding the trolls, and strongly urge others to do the same.
You call me a troll and you don't even know what the civil war is all about? Propaganda or not, financial and military support or not, it's citizens of the same country fighting with each other. You don't even get the message, no sane person thinks that Russia, by some kind of rigged logic, isn't directly guilty of escalating the hot situation. Such conflicts shouldn't be about claiming who's the major villain, it should be about saving as much lives as possible. And my posts is about telling you how hypocritical and untrue to democratic values the people who you support wholeheartedly are acting.
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On May 04 2014 01:33 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 01:09 hunts wrote:On May 03 2014 23:58 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?
They just don't care and you support them like they do.
The west did actually choose not to support ultranationalist and withdrew its support, we stopped supporting russia with their ultra nationalist violence and propaganda. Have you seen Odessa news today? I am going to bet that no one of the murderers would be punished for their crimes by current Ukranian government, well, because it's officially a civil war from now on. It could've went different way if anybody in EU & USA did really care, instead of endlessly threatening Russia with sanctions. You support the ultranationalist government (Ukraine) who can't do anything about the civil war on their home turf, there is nothing to write home about. Has anything remotely similar ever happened in history before? It's not a civil war when the agressors are backed by russia or are russian soldiers. The only ultranatioalist government in this whole fiasco is russia. I will now however stop feeding the trolls, and strongly urge others to do the same.
Personally I'd rather not listen to people who use such nouns as "aggressors" and "Russian soldiers" in one single sentence without providing evidence which is reliable enough. You won't provide it because I think nobody knows the truth now. What we know is that there are 46 ppl dead in Odessa -- the city which seemed so stable and supportive of Kiev government only two days before.
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On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote:
Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that?
It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
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On May 04 2014 01:43 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:33 hunts wrote:On May 04 2014 01:26 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On May 04 2014 01:09 hunts wrote:On May 03 2014 23:58 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?
They just don't care and you support them like they do.
The west did actually choose not to support ultranationalist and withdrew its support, we stopped supporting russia with their ultra nationalist violence and propaganda. Have you seen Odessa news today? I am going to bet that no one of the murderers would be punished for their crimes by current Ukranian government, well, because it's officially a civil war from now on. It could've went different way if anybody in EU & USA did really care, instead of endlessly threatening Russia with sanctions. You support the ultranationalist government (Ukraine) who can't do anything about the civil war on their home turf, there is nothing to write home about. Has anything remotely similar ever happened in history before? It's not a civil war when the agressors are backed by russia or are russian soldiers. The only ultranatioalist government in this whole fiasco is russia. I will now however stop feeding the trolls, and strongly urge others to do the same. Personally I'd rather not listen to people who use such nouns as "aggressors" and "Russian soldiers" in one single sentence without providing evidence which is reliable enough. You won't provide it because I think nobody knows the truth now. What we know is that there are 46 ppl dead in Odessa -- the city which seemed so supportive of Kiev government only two days before.
SBU claims, that in midst of 31 people that died in fire, 15 were Russians and 5 came from Transnistria. The again it can be a part of propaganda war, so until more reliable sources will confirm it, I say all we know is that 46 ppl lost their lives yesterday.
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On May 04 2014 01:48 myminerals wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote:
Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that? It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement.
Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick?
Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though.
edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
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On May 04 2014 01:36 hzflank wrote:
There are well armed militias in Ukraine taking over state buildings. No one would do that for economical reasons. No one joins a militia because they disagree with their governments economics.
I disagree. History isn't my major, but I bet I can find the similar cases if I try.
For start, just try to imagine: people are shit poor and face different kind of discrimination by their government, despite the fact that their region (East Ukraine) is responsible for most of Ukraine's natural resources income. Then they saw Russia taking Crimea and thought it would be much easier for them to follow the suit than try to communicate with their own government, especially if Russia is invested in such scenario by sending soldiers to take control of the administrative bulidings. I don't think that's it's either the right decision to make or that's all presented claims are entirely true, but it should be understandable to some degree, right?
It's not like the economic politics is the only flaw of the current Ukrainian government, it's just the strongest one for me.
You can create new laws and remove old ones, regulate social institutes and radical groups, but you can't pull money out of the air.
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On May 04 2014 01:51 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 01:48 myminerals wrote:On May 04 2014 01:42 m4ini wrote:
Just out of interest, since there wasn't much coverage in here about that.. How exactly did they shoot down two Mi24s?
JudicatorHabibi (or smth) might help me out there, but i have my doubts about a Hind being shot down by assault rifles. SBU says "portable missile launchers" were used to down them, and while i wouldn't take their word on something, if you consider the fact that a Hind is near impossible to get down with assault rifles, well. Any thoughts on that? It was shot from a manpad (ПЗРК) as far as was reported. A Russian one, such was the official Kiev statement. Yeah, i saw the statement, still, i'd like other opinions on that. You as a (bela)russian should know that a Hind is a pretty tough nut to crack (especially two of them). So if they were shot down by something "advanced" (compared to the crude weapons they used before, like AKs n stuff).. Where on earth did they get them from, especially, where did they get them from so relatively quick? Somebody could try and argue with me, saying "well hunters n stuff often have an AK" etc, i rarely see somebody foxhunting with portable rocket launchers though. edit: for clarification, manpads are not RPGs, but rather "russian stingers", correct?
Manpad is a short for man-portable air-defense, so US stinger falls into this category too.
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EPT
