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Ukraine Crisis - Page 477

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
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Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:10:41
May 03 2014 13:58 GMT
#9521
@zeo
Just post "1 death, possibly more". The 'more' true statement is "1 deaths" because it doesn't exclude more deaths. "10 deaths" excludes the possibility of 1, and is potentially exaggerating the situation.

Also what are you saying about "Maybe you missed the part were all journalists are barred from entering Kramatorsk"?
I actually haven't heard of that, and I did some searching and couldn't find anything except reports from journalists in Kramatorsk. Could you enlighten me with a source?

5hh.gg
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:04:03
May 03 2014 14:01 GMT
#9522


http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-unspun-concentration-camp/25370814.html

I think I'd find things like this funny if not for how some people actually believe what the Russian state-controlled media is telling them.

Also: The stories from the last page about the Crimean Tatars are troubling. After the Russian government kicked their leader out of Crimea some of the Tatars went to visit him and now they've been barred from returning to their homes?
hzflank
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom2991 Posts
May 03 2014 14:02 GMT
#9523
On May 03 2014 22:47 nunez wrote:
casualty count at 46.

Show nested quote +
The prosecutor's office confirmed the death of 46 people in Odessa, all Identified - from the Odessa region

Attorney Odessa region Igor Borshulyak said that during yesterday's collision and fire in the House of Trade Unions killed 46 people, more than two hundred and asked for help in medical institutions, 20 of which - the police, eight people died from falls from height. This Borshulyak said during a briefing on the tragic events of May 2 in Odessa , reports Duma .

According Borshulyaka, human casualties could have been avoided if the law enforcement officers to fulfill their direct duties more efficiently and in a timely manner. On this fact the prosecutor's office opened a criminal proceeding.
rbc.ua


The source article says that only 6 of the people have been identified at this time, and all 6 are from Odessa. It's just the media on both sides twisting things in their favour.

Rumors that the home building trade unions weapons were found, and that the dead were Russian and Transnistrian passport to the prosecutor's office did not confirm. "This is yet - the secret investigation. Now identified six people and all of them - residents of Odessa region, "- said the chief prosecutor of the regional prosecutor Eugene Vlasyuk.


http://dumskaya.net/news/prokuratura-chislo-gertv-vyroslo-do-46-chelovek-035310/

Excuse the translation, I am relying on google translate.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6344 Posts
May 03 2014 14:07 GMT
#9524
After being told to stay indoors for their own safety a group of citizens go out onto the street to express their disgust at a column of Kiev troops entering their city:


I think it shows the complexity of the situation in Ukraine right now. Maidan can send their troops into a city, but what then? The people will never bow to murderers.

@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
May 03 2014 14:15 GMT
#9525
@zeo

Could you give a source for "all journalists are barred from entering Kramatorsk"?? I'm curious if this is true.
5hh.gg
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:26:22
May 03 2014 14:16 GMT
#9526
@hzflank
i'm not sure i understand, what was being twisted? that quote is also in the rbc.ua article, but i don't see how nationality matters re:casualty count? mine was also google translated, so it's a bit awkward to read...

@semantics
i was thinking the tweet zeo is referring to was in very poor taste, but seeing that he has love for liquid i am gonna give him a second chance.

@ghan
i doubt it's specific to ukraine... you were pulling the same stunts in the syria civil war thread, denouncing ppl you didn't agree with as trolls while spamming biased 'filler'.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
myminerals
Profile Joined August 2013
560 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:39:18
May 03 2014 14:17 GMT
#9527
On May 03 2014 23:07 zeo wrote:
After being told to stay indoors for their own safety a group of citizens go out onto the street to express their disgust at a column of Kiev troops entering their city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JIVBdBzXE

I think it shows the complexity of the situation in Ukraine right now. Maidan can send their troops into a city, but what then? The people will never bow to murderers.

@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.

East Ukraine in a nutshell.

People call soldiers "fascists" and express their negative attitude in linguistically every possible way (Russian is very expressive in this regard).
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
May 03 2014 14:18 GMT
#9528
@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.


Fine by me, can't argue all day about it anyway.
On track to MA1950A.
myminerals
Profile Joined August 2013
560 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:26:47
May 03 2014 14:25 GMT
#9529
On May 03 2014 18:20 promiseme wrote:
The amount of brainwashed Russia-hating ppl that ready to go kill russians is really quite astonishing in this topic. Western media doing its job. And all these ppl think that this is their own opinion. xD

Even this label they put "Pro-russian". In fact this ppl are pro-ukranian they defending their own land, freedom and families where they live. Also in english language there is no differense between "russian" (which can be called any russian-speaking slavic looking man) and rossianin (which is a russian citizen with passport). They unite these quite different terms under one "russian" label. So "pro-russian" means totaly different in english compared to russian. Like Odessa isnt pro-russian, its a russian city lol. In terms of nationality of majority ppl that live there. Well again english language...
Also ppl that believe that all protests againt new Kiev goverment are only organized by Russia and that all ukrains are actually support this new goverment, and its all evil Russia that does its special operations to confront Ukrain and take its territory. Ppl that thinks so arent clever to they the least .

It is ok for this resource to be "russian-hating", as if you expected an english site to be a pro-russian one
On the other hand the information we are getting now is so twisted that the only way to know the truth is to take a ticket to Ukraine. It is very difficult to stay neutral under such circumstances, sooner or later your opinion starts tilting.
hzflank
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom2991 Posts
May 03 2014 14:34 GMT
#9530
On May 03 2014 23:16 nunez wrote:
@hzflank
i'm not sure i understand, what was being twisted? that quote is also in the rbc.ua article, but i don't see how nationality matters re:casualty count? mine was also google translated, so it's a bit awkward to read...


The rbc.ua article stated that all 46 had been identified and were from Odessa. The origin of the deceased matters because many pro-maidan Odessians are saying that large numbers of pro-russians came to fight, from Crimea and/or Russia.
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:39:21
May 03 2014 14:36 GMT
#9531
@hzflank
no, i think you're misreading it. i think it says all the identified people are from odessa, which later is reported to be 6 from 'identified six people and all of them - residents of Odessa region'. the title is a bit clumsy, but i think that's due to google translate. their origins are relevant, but not so much in the context of a casualty count!
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6344 Posts
May 03 2014 14:38 GMT
#9532
On May 03 2014 23:15 Mc wrote:
@zeo

Could you give a source for "all journalists are barred from entering Kramatorsk"?? I'm curious if this is true.

https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/462522863099342848/photo/1

No one in or out means no one is allowed inside. I've been looking for correspondents in Kramatorsk, could you please post some sources?
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Hundisilm
Profile Joined July 2011
Estonia99 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:39:33
May 03 2014 14:38 GMT
#9533
On May 03 2014 23:07 zeo wrote:
After being told to stay indoors for their own safety a group of citizens go out onto the street to express their disgust at a column of Kiev troops entering their city:

I think it shows the complexity of the situation in Ukraine right now. Maidan can send their troops into a city, but what then? The people will never bow to murderers.

@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.


It's probably quite safe to assume there is considerable sentiment of separatism in the East (it wouldn't be possible to suck the current situation out of vacuum). I'm a bit confused regarding the elections though - if the current government is pretty much being re-elected anyway almost immediately - shouldn't it not matter that much what they are and are not (even if they were horrible nazi monsters - they probably wouldn't have time to make soap of all the poor non-peds)?

Or what is going on here (I'm confused)?

PS. Lovely USSR logo on the upper right corner of the youtube clip one must admit.
myminerals
Profile Joined August 2013
560 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 14:41:06
May 03 2014 14:39 GMT
#9534
On May 03 2014 23:07 zeo wrote:
After being told to stay indoors for their own safety a group of citizens go out onto the street to express their disgust at a column of Kiev troops entering their city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JIVBdBzXE

I think it shows the complexity of the situation in Ukraine right now. Maidan can send their troops into a city, but what then? The people will never bow to murderers.

@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.

Then young woman says "our guys are being shot there", so be it Russian troops or town militia, they shall be "our guys" for these ppl and this is the crucial part that neither EU nor USA prefer to see. I have not seen a single evidence of Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine so far. Why does Kiev together with EU/USA keep accusing Russia of interfering and supporting the uprising in the East? I am not defending Russia, it is that I don't see why I should accuse it of something.
hzflank
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom2991 Posts
May 03 2014 14:40 GMT
#9535
On May 03 2014 23:36 nunez wrote:
@hzflank
no, i think you're misreading it. i think it says all the identified people are from odessa, which later is reported to be 6 from 'identified six people and all of them - residents of Odessa region'. the title is a bit clumsy, but i think that's due to google translate. their origins are relevant, but not so much in the context of a casualty count!


Ah, I read "46 people, all identified" as all 46 were identified. As you said, just a translation thing.
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
May 03 2014 14:43 GMT
#9536
makes sense!
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
AA.spoon
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium331 Posts
May 03 2014 14:50 GMT
#9537
There are elections in 3 weeks. Why fight now?
I feel some parts of the world don't have a strong democratic tradition yet...
Hundisilm
Profile Joined July 2011
Estonia99 Posts
May 03 2014 14:51 GMT
#9538
On May 03 2014 23:39 myminerals wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2014 23:07 zeo wrote:
After being told to stay indoors for their own safety a group of citizens go out onto the street to express their disgust at a column of Kiev troops entering their city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JIVBdBzXE

I think it shows the complexity of the situation in Ukraine right now. Maidan can send their troops into a city, but what then? The people will never bow to murderers.

@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.

Then young woman says "our guys are being shot there", so be it Russian troops or town militia, they shall be "our guys" for these ppl and this is the crucial part that neither EU nor USA prefer to see. I have not seen a single evidence of Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine so far. Why does Kiev together with EU/USA keep accusing Russia of interfering and supporting the uprising in the East? I am not defending Russia, it is that I don't see why I should accuse it of something.


It's a bit of a stretch to say there is no evidence in my opinion - plenty of interviews and comments that imply it. Depends a bit on how you define evidence - it is true that there is nothing near to non-disbutable available to the public probably.

Even so - if there were no actual operators on the ground - they've made plenty clear that the people occupying buildings can not be touched or else.

It's a bit like having two friendly citizens of the world come up to you, one with a gun and the other with a stick. The one with the stick start beating you with their stick thing, and the other points a gun at you and says that if you hit back, bad things will happen to you. Equiped with a reasonable stick yourself, you probably wouldn't be that scared regarding the stick person, but the person holding the gun is probably somewhat problematic. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the gun-person is interfering with the situation?
ForTehDarkseid
Profile Joined April 2013
8139 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 15:04:02
May 03 2014 14:58 GMT
#9539
Well, there is no right side in this conflict, but I am quite dissappointed that Western leaders have chosen to support ultranationalists instead of withdrawing from them and not providing any financial support before autumn. They can't be that naive, right?

They just don't care and you support them like they do.
I think their strategy is to dumpster bad Western teams (c) uriel
myminerals
Profile Joined August 2013
560 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-03 15:08:53
May 03 2014 15:05 GMT
#9540
On May 03 2014 23:51 Hundisilm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2014 23:39 myminerals wrote:
On May 03 2014 23:07 zeo wrote:
After being told to stay indoors for their own safety a group of citizens go out onto the street to express their disgust at a column of Kiev troops entering their city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JIVBdBzXE

I think it shows the complexity of the situation in Ukraine right now. Maidan can send their troops into a city, but what then? The people will never bow to murderers.

@m4ini
Let's just say in the heat of the moment we both interprate each others words wrongly and misunderstandings arise.

Then young woman says "our guys are being shot there", so be it Russian troops or town militia, they shall be "our guys" for these ppl and this is the crucial part that neither EU nor USA prefer to see. I have not seen a single evidence of Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine so far. Why does Kiev together with EU/USA keep accusing Russia of interfering and supporting the uprising in the East? I am not defending Russia, it is that I don't see why I should accuse it of something.


It's a bit of a stretch to say there is no evidence in my opinion - plenty of interviews and comments that imply it. Depends a bit on how you define evidence - it is true that there is nothing near to non-disbutable available to the public probably.

Even so - if there were no actual operators on the ground - they've made plenty clear that the people occupying buildings can not be touched or else.

It's a bit like having two friendly citizens of the world come up to you, one with a gun and the other with a stick. The one with the stick start beating you with their stick thing, and the other points a gun at you and says that if you hit back, bad things will happen to you. Equiped with a reasonable stick yourself, you probably wouldn't be that scared regarding the stick person, but the person holding the gun is probably somewhat problematic. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the gun-person is interfering with the situation?

It is. But did Russia say that they shall defend the East if Kiev send its troops? I didn't hear anything of the sort.
It does not seem correct to jump to such serious accusations as military support and possible invasion when you do not provide similarly serious evidence, moreover when Moscow didn't directly declare that they shall be helping the East with guns if Kiev tries to use weapons against ppl.
It looks like notorious hypothesis of "chemical weapons" which were never found but triggered so much pain for so many ppl. I mean that if any of us would act pre-emptively, basing on just speculations and not facts ppl could as well go and shoot each other right now, don't you agree?
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