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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 16 2014 06:03 Cheerio wrote: seriously I don't understand why people even bother talking to you. You've made up your mind and completely ignore everything that doesn't fit your worldview. Gave up on it as well, since i think it's pure flamebating at this point. | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
On April 16 2014 05:26 DeepElemBlues wrote: In the West most people especially in professional positions actually care when you question their integrity. Are we still talking about the media and journalism? I'm lost. People were also being oppressed and murdered because of their ethnicity and religion in Kosovo. The UN human rights office in Geneva has stated that there is no evidence of "widespread or systematic" repression of Russian-speakers in the Ukraine. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-04-15/distortion-is-ukraine-s-true-human-rights-threat-un-study-says Absolutely, after all until recently there was a friendly to Russia president in power. So? Ethnic traits are only valid during periods of widespread and systematic repression? If the US and EU control Kiev why is Svoboda in the Kiev government the US and EU if in control of Kiev would have had them kicked out to counter Russian propaganda about fascists controlling the Ukraine. Among many other things the US and EU would have made Kiev do if they really controlled it. Cause a) fascist groups cannot get controlled, might be useful for some time by the parties of the center and right wing to maintain power during periods of crisis cause fascism, virtually, primarily counterweights left, but ofc it works as a movement cannot simply get shut off and they will turn around and bite the hand that was until recently feeding it. (that's something that is happening in Greece) b) i thought that until now it would be apparent the support (control) of the main political leaders of the opposition by the US and EU. Hell, it has only been couple months since this leak http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 (the live version is funnier, the abasandor was like "uuuuhhhh...uuhhh" like "dayum more balance changes") and late last year this http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-grooms-boxer-vitali-klitschko-to-lead-ukraine-opposition-a-938079.html | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
Are we still talking about the media and journalism? I'm lost. You said pro-Russian critics of Western media don't have a say in what Western media is maybe being told to report. I am saying that Western journalism is far different and more complex than this conception of orders being given and carried out and that integrity - a component of which is independence - plays a large role in these conflicting pressures that are the profession of journalism. So most Western journalists, being professionals, will care if their integrity is questioned. Questioning a journalist or a journalistic organization's integrity, accusing them of being mouthpieces, is a way of trying to gain some authority over their reportage. RT and all the other Russian media that coincidentally I'm sure says what the Kremlin wants gives no fucks if it gets criticized for lying or whatever. Der Spiegel, the Guardian, New York times, hundreds of other Western media organizations do. Absolutely, after all until recently there was a friendly to Russia president in power. So? Ethnic traits are only valid during periods of widespread and systematic repression? Ethnic traits are valid for what? Cannibalizing another country for the glory of the motherland? Are we really back to that shit again? This report from Geneva covers a period of time up until April 2nd, two weeks ago. There has been ample time for the Kiev government to take it to ethnic Russians and Russian first-language speakers. Hasn't happened. Cause a) fascist groups cannot get controlled, might be useful for some time by the parties of the center and right wing to maintain power during periods of crisis cause fascism, virtually, primarily counterweights left, but ofc it works as a movement cannot simply get shut off and they will turn around and bite the hand that was until recently feeding it. (that's something that is happening in Greece) Yeah see the problem with that is the purge of the far right in Greece and specifically Golden Dawn is proceeding more or less apace; purges within puppet governments have never been particularly hard to execute and Greece isn't even a puppet. Fascist groups cannot get controlled lol the history of the 20th century in Russia and Russian-occupied countries is that fascist groups can get controlled real ones and faked ones the only fascist group that couldn't be controlled was the one ruling Russia during that time. b) i thought that until now it would be apparent the support (control) of the main political leaders of the opposition by the US and EU. Hell, it has only been couple months since this leak http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 (the live version is funnier, the abasandor was like "uuuuhhhh...uuhhh" like "dayum more balance changes") and late last year this http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-grooms-boxer-vitali-klitschko-to-lead-ukraine-opposition-a-938079.html Oh no the US and EU talk about who they would like to be in charge of the Ukraine and give their support to those people. Someone better alert all the parties in Europe that those pan-European federations they have that support each other in the EU parliament and in general are really trojan horses for every European country trying to control every other European country at the same damn time! Western support of Maidan politicians is not to control Ukraine or screw over anyone in Ukraine. US and EU wouldn't care very much if Ukraine had a very close relationship with Moscow as long as they could have a closer relationship with Ukraine too. They don't have to be mutually exclusive or even equivalent, Germany has a real close relationship with the US and not near as close but before this invasion business pretty darn close relations with Russia. US and EU haven't shown that they want anything more than a more mutually beneficial relationship with Ukraine, and not to the detriment of Russia. It also doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. If US and EU support of Maidan is now to screw anyone over (and it wasn't at the start, it wasn't even the US it was just the EU wanting to get closer with Ukraine economically mostly) it is Vladimir Putin. And hey guess what that's the kind of business Putin chose to conduct well before the Maidan protests. Putin isn't crying about it he's invaded Ukraine over it. | ||
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
On April 16 2014 01:53 Mc wrote: What reports? Both links lead to basically the same video. And in neither they are speaking Russian. This. Read the date and description of the Russian video and the FSA footage, and then compare it to the skies in Kramatorsk at the time. The claims and footage were debunked not long after though as being the same video, just with the FSA rebel's voices edited out. Minor correction though: it was one of the SU-27s that were deployed that was reported as being "shot down", not an SU-25. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
The article says Ukrainian soldiers literally switched sides. Wtf? | ||
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pmp10
3402 Posts
On April 16 2014 17:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The article says Ukrainian soldiers literally switched sides. Wtf? If that's true then the matter is pretty much settled. There was a small chance that Putin could be forced into open invasion but it seems to be gone. Won't be long before what remains of Ukraine will be back in Russian sphere. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 16 2014 17:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The article says Ukrainian soldiers literally switched sides. Wtf? Give it a few hours before the dust settles. *** Some scary stuff in the shadows: Donetsk separatists require Jews to register for 50 dollars | ||
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
Whoever's commanding these troops sure is doing a fine job of handing over free armour to the separatists. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
On April 16 2014 19:26 sgtnoobkilla wrote: https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/456367696326578176 Whoever's commanding these troops sure is doing a fine job of handing over free armour to the separatists. And what would you do when a civilian stands infront of your tank? keep driving? Note the armed soldiers sitting on the tank. How exactly are these separatists in control of the tank? | ||
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zeo
Serbia6344 Posts
On April 16 2014 19:26 sgtnoobkilla wrote: https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/456367696326578176 Whoever's commanding these troops sure is doing a fine job of handing over free armour to the separatists. Anti-government protesters. Of course the soldiers and armor are going to stand still or switch sides. What are they going to do, keep murdering innocent people at Maidans whim? | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On April 16 2014 18:23 Ghanburighan wrote: https://twitter.com/JournalMinimum/status/456344981188247554 Give it a few hours before the dust settles. *** Some scary stuff in the shadows: Donetsk separatists require Jews to register for 50 dollars WTF????? That's enough Internet for a day. I'm going to sleep... | ||
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
On April 16 2014 19:36 Gorsameth wrote: And what would you do when a civilian stands infront of your tank? keep driving? I wouldn't be sending them in there in the first place? What if those rebels surround them with RPGs and they can't reverse or drive forward without causing a bloodbath? The Russians learnt that the hard way in Chechnya and Afghanistan so you would think that by now the Ukrainian leadership would know better than to send slow armoured vehicles into a highly urbanised town with angry citizens and rebels everywhere with itchy trigger fingers... On April 16 2014 19:36 Gorsameth wrote: Note the armed soldiers sitting on the tank. How exactly are these separatists in control of the tank? Of course not these guys on the photo right now. But it won't be long until they "defect" or just disarm themselves eventually. So again, why would this commander send them in there when you know there is a high chance of this happening? | ||
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Dlash23
Russian Federation38 Posts
lol, are you really believe in this bullshit? | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On April 16 2014 19:59 sgtnoobkilla wrote: Apparently the Ukrainian MoD says that the defectors are actually "Ukrainian troops in disguise". Because like Trojan horses in the 21st century and exposing your plan on the media networks makes for the best combination ever. I wouldn't be sending them in there in the first place? What if those rebels surround them with RPGs and they can't reverse or drive forward without causing a bloodbath? The Russians learnt that the hard way in Chechnya and Afghanistan so you would think that by now the Ukrainian leadership would know better than to send slow armoured vehicles into a highly urbanised town with angry citizens and rebels everywhere with itchy trigger fingers... Of course not these guys on the photo right now. But it won't be long until they "defect" or just disarm themselves eventually. So again, why would this commander send them in there when you know there is a high chance of this happening? according to german media they swapped sides and deserted from the ukrainian army to join russian forces (source). so they are already on the sides of the separatists. the article states their reasons (no support from kiev, no wages, even no food) and it looks reasonable. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
I am on the verge of giving up hope for Ukraine. Maybe Russia isn't in the wrong because Ukraine actually likes getting fucked in the ass. And Putin likes to put out. p.s. I hope you got my pun  | ||
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Dlash23
Russian Federation38 Posts
On April 16 2014 20:37 Mc wrote: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/insurgents-in-kramatorsk-in-armored-personnel-carriers-fly-russian-flag-live-update-343745.html I am on the verge of giving up hope for Ukraine. Maybe Russia isn't in the wrong because Ukraine actually likes getting fucked in the ass. And Putin likes to put out. p.s. I hope you got my pun you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote: you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... If Ukraine likes taking it in the butt, I don't care who does it - EU or Russia. edit: Sorry Cheerio if I'm being offensive, but this situation is frustrating me so much that I have to use humour to deal with it :/ | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
No troops on the ground, but staff, navy and airplanes. Sounds like Xmas. | ||
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Asymmetric
Scotland1309 Posts
Economic reasons be damned, there's a hostile state orchestrating the annexation of our neighbours. To hell with Russian objections. We should implement the Polish defense ministers proposals in Eastern Europe, economically sanction Russia, actively fund and arm Ukraine and fast track its ascension to NATO. If we managed to fund Mujahideen fighters in the 80's in Afghanistan to make soviet expansion bleed dry we can at least offer support to Ukraine now against Russia. | ||
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