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On April 16 2014 20:19 fleeze wrote:according to german media they swapped sides and deserted from the ukrainian army to join russian forces ( source). so they are already on the sides of the separatists. the article states their reasons (no support from kiev, no wages, even no food) and it looks reasonable. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if this really was the cause for any of the defections. Ukraine's military was suffering for the last few years and continues to experience the same problems that Russia went through in 90's to early 200X's (mind you Russia's military still hasn't fully recovered either).
EDIT: Damn, Ghan beat me to it. 
Well, NATO is finally doing something for once that isn't an empty statement: existing troops stationed (not for Ukraine) in Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, and Latvia will be soon be backed up by additional reinforcements along their eastern borders. This also includes the planned surge in the number of aircraft being deployed for the Baltic air policing missions.
BRUSSELS: NATO CHIEF VOWS NEW DEPLOYMENTThe head of NATO says the alliance is strengthening its military footprint along its eastern border in response to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine. Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said NATO will immediately deploy forces to the region. He says there will be “more planes in the air, mores ships on the water, more readiness on the land.” But Rasmussen declined to specify how many troops or assets will be deployed, saying only it will be “enough” and more could be done if needed. He stresses the move is about “deterrence and de-escalation” in the face of Russia’s aggressive behaviour. Source
Doorstep statement by NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen following the meeting of the North Atlantic Council..... We have just taken further measures to respond to the crisis in Ukraine. We agree that a political solution is the only way forward. NATO fully supports the Geneva talks and all the efforts of the international community to find a political solution, which fulfils the democratic aspirations of the entire Ukrainian people and respects the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. We call on Russia to be part of the solution. To stop destabilising Ukraine, pull back its troops from the borders and make clear it doesn't support the violent actions of well armed militias of pro-Russian separatists. Today, we agreed on a package of further military measures to reinforce our collective defence and demonstrate the strength of Allied solidarity. We will have more planes in the air, more ships on the water, and more readiness on the land. For example, air policing aircraft will fly more sorties over the Baltic region. Allied ships will deploy to the Baltic Sea, the Eastern Mediterranean and elsewhere, as required. Military staff from Allied nations will deploy to enhance our preparedness, training and exercises. Our defence plans will be reviewed and reinforced. We will start to implement these measures straight away. More will follow, if needed, in the weeks and months to come. ..... Source
Also, the majority of Ukraine's remaining military assets will be relocating east in the meantime to bolster their eastern forces.
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On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them...
Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again.
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them?
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Once again I ask you, What can Ukraine do? If they start shooting 'separatists' Russia invades and since those separatists are armed your unlikely to remove them without force.
Ukraine doesn't like getting fucked but Russia has put a gun to there face and is telling them to bend over while Europe keeps walking across the street trying to look the other way.
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On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them?
Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it.
The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous.
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat?
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On April 16 2014 21:47 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat?
So if there was something valuable for Russia in the Baltic countries it would be o.k. to grab some land?
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On April 16 2014 21:27 Gorsameth wrote:Once again I ask you, What can Ukraine do? If they start shooting 'separatists' Russia invades and since those separatists are armed your unlikely to remove them without force. Ukraine doesn't like getting fucked but Russia has put a gun to there face and is telling them to bend over while Europe keeps walking across the street trying to look the other way. I in general agree and basically Russia has Ukraine by the balls and there isn't much it could have done about Crimea.
My main issue is that Ukraine (and the whole world knew) Russia might start problems in E. Ukraine also. Couldn't they have responded quicker rather than waiting almost a month to react (March 13th, 2 Ukrainians were killed during pro-Russia protestors in Donetsk)? They didn't need to send troops in at the time, but just have a fucking plan for what to do if they start occupying buildings, and maybe send in Ukrainian loyal police/riot-police (they still have some outside of Berkut?). Be prepared for a very probably situation so you can respond quickly rather than responding after 10 towns are partially occupied and the "protestors" have fortified themselves.
So the question is why they weren't prepared for this? Was it pro-Russians in the government/army sabotaging preparations or hiding information? Was it just general ineptitude? Something else?
It's just so frustrating to see this country whose people have fought so hard and even died for freedom from Russian control, squander their efforts... again (first time being Orange Revolution).
edit: There is still hope that democratic reforms will bring positive change, and that Ukraine will take care of the E. protests without lots of casualties or an outright Russian invasion... but my confidence wains the more time passes.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On April 16 2014 21:51 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:47 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat? So if there was something valuable for Russia in the Baltic countries it would be o.k. to grab some land?
please tell me where were Latvia and Estonia before 1917? show me them on the map please
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On April 16 2014 21:55 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:51 mdb wrote:On April 16 2014 21:47 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat? So if there was something valuable for Russia in the Baltic countries it would be o.k. to grab some land? please tell me where were Latvia and Estonia before 1917? show me them on the map please
lol what kind of logic is that?
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On April 16 2014 21:51 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:47 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat? So if there was something valuable for Russia in the Baltic countries it would be o.k. to grab some land? funny question, but I said it before that in my opinion Russia now holds protects their interests. (Eastern Ukraine traded only with Russia, and these products do not need anyone else) and on the other hand, those who have invested in this revolution (most likely US) trying to get money back. And yet again this is beneficial to someone troubled region between EU and Russia
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On April 16 2014 21:55 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:51 mdb wrote:On April 16 2014 21:47 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat? So if there was something valuable for Russia in the Baltic countries it would be o.k. to grab some land? please tell me where were Latvia and Estonia before 1917? show me them on the map please
You really don't get it, do you?
History is no valid reason for landgrabs. If you accept history as a valid reason for landgrabs, everyone can claim pretty much anything bordering you, which leads to a might makes right situation even moreso than we already have it, which usually tends to lead to a lot of wars. If you want a look at a system that accepts history as a reason to grab lands, take a look at europian history until 1945. Spoiler: You basically constantly have wars going on. If you now accept that wars are usually not good, then you realize that historical claims are not a good system to build upon.
For example, historically, germany could claim at least Austria, half of Poland, Alsace & Lorraine, parts of Denmark, and probably more. Large parts of germany could be claimed by italians, french, danes, and probably a lot of other people. Now, would it be reasonable to have an expansionist policy trying to get all that land back? Obviously not, it is retarded.
Also, you are only seeing the things that russia could claim. You might want to take a look at what someone else could claim of Russia. Depending on how far back you go, there might be some juicy pieces of land someone else might want. Take a look of some maps of russia in 1600 or something. Do you really want those borders back, and if not, who gets to choose which borders of which time are so wonderful that you need to go back to them?
My main point is: 19th century imperialist thinking is not a good thing to base your policies on.
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On April 16 2014 21:55 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 21:51 mdb wrote:On April 16 2014 21:47 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:35 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 21:26 Dlash23 wrote:On April 16 2014 21:13 Asymmetric wrote:On April 16 2014 20:44 Dlash23 wrote:you prefer that Ukraine will be fucked by EU/US? =) Actually I don't know what is better for them... Although I won't speak for them, I'm confident there is plenty of Pole's, Latvian's, Estonian's, etc who would despise the idea of ever being in Russia's "camp" again. And who calls them? who need them? Because many of them have lived under Moscow control and broken free of it. The point is the idea of morale relativism between Russia and EU is preposterous. I can understand the strategic reason that Russia needs eastern Ukraine (there are many plants that are cooperating with our military and space production). But it is necessary in these Baltic countries? Get unemployed and plants producing sprat? So if there was something valuable for Russia in the Baltic countries it would be o.k. to grab some land? please tell me where were Latvia and Estonia before 1917? show me them on the map please + Show Spoiler +
Look closely.
edit: spoilered
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
it seems like you don't get it at all
world isn't what you were taught by your media, which are telling you that all want to be friends, USA is good etc.
it is King of the Hill game - the stronger you are, the more you are allowed to do right now USA and their allies are Kings of the Hill - they can do (almost) everything they want world is forced to use dollars and be "democratic" etc., they invade countries at will, destroy them to give their oil-resources (for example) uder control of US and Brit corporation before that British Empire was the King of the Hill alone. It has half a world as colonies, where ppl worked for food for them but there are other strong playes like China and Russia those can and will do a lot too
and if Russia decides to take its land back it will take it
Also, you are only seeing the things that russia could claim. You might want to take a look at what someone else could claim of Russia.
they can try
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So you really, seriously want to go back to 19th century imperialism. Ok, i think i am done talking to you, i don't think i can reason with this much craziness.
Also, i think pretty much anything you wrote in your last post is utterly dislodged from reality.
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I think Paleman finally made a worthwhile contribution to the thread. He demonstrated beyond doubt that behind all the justifications, pretty words, and obfuscating stories, or fear-mongering about fascism or whatnot, there lies the cold heart Russian mentality that might makes right: `if Russia decides to take its land back, it will take it.' And that's why people from all countries must unify against the threat of this mentality and force Russia to behave like a member of the international community does, because Russia will not do so itself, and we all know the consequences of allowing expansionist empires run amok.
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On April 16 2014 22:38 Simberto wrote: So you really, seriously want to go back to 19th century imperialism. Ok, i think i am done talking to you, i don't think i can reason with this much craziness.
Also, i think pretty much anything you wrote in your last post is utterly dislodged from reality.
Not just in his last post. Why do you think so many people in here refuse to "discuss" with him? We all had our share of PaleMans wisdoms. Even most of the other russian people in this thread shake their heads at him.
I think Paleman finally made a worthwhile contribution to the thread. He demonstrated beyond doubt that behind all the justifications, pretty words, and obfuscating stories, or fear-mongering about fascism or whatnot, there lies the cold heart Russian mentality that might makes right: `if Russia decides to take its land back, it will take it.'
That's extremely far fetched though. Even the other russian participants here don't take him serious, to take him "as an example for what's really going on in russia" is waaaay to convenient to make a point. I personally know a couple of russians (living in germany though, but born in russia) from my time in the army, and they all would piss their pants laughing after reading his crap.
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Russian Journalist and author Arkadij Babtjenko wrote a piece in the swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter. Im sorry if the my translation from swedish to english is a bit sloppy but hopefully you can make sense of most of it.
+ Show Spoiler +With troops on Ukrainian border the tone is sharpened also on the Russian home front. Author and journalist Arkady Babtjenko fought in Chechnya - now he is called a national traitor.
Hi, my name Arkady Arkadevitj Babtjenko. Thirty-seven years, college educated, married, father of one daughter.
When I was nineteen my homeland put boots on my feet, stuck a rifle in my hands, put me on a tank and said: "Go." So I went along. "The restoration of the constitutional order" - thats what the they called the war that time. When I was twenty, I went myself to the enlistment office and enlisted, voluntarily, in the army and went to war for the second time. " Anti-terrorist Operation" - as it was called from 1999. Participated 102 days in direct warfare, as it is called in my soldierbook.
During the two wars for my country, I received free transportation and two thousand rubles in coupons. Thanks for that.
My cousin, Sergei Babtjenko, was killed in Tajikistan. At the border. Some kids had been sent there as relief. And would immediately be sent out on a raid. He offered to take their place. They were about to arrest a gang that smuggled heroin. My cousin was the machine gunner . They killed him with a shot to the head. The only one who was killed in battle. By a sniper. Now his name is engraved in the memorial to the fallen soldiers from Bashkir, where he was born.
My father, Arkady Lavrentevitj Babtjenko, fired a rocket at the Cosmos. He was an engineer, worked at the Federal Technical Space Agency. Engineered cable masts for rockets. His last job was a cable mast to the space shuttle "Buran". Dad was away on business trips six consecutive months. In Baikonur, he lived in a dorm. And in Moscow in a two room apartment with wife, son, mother, brother and his family. That apartment was all we had. Nothing else. No car , no garage, no datja.
In the 90s, when the "Buran" project was discontinued after only one space flight, my father didnt begin to either barter nor steal. For stuff like that, he was absolutely incapable. He was born to launching rockets into space. And continued until his death to draw those cable masts, which they no longer needed. In almost total poverty.
He died of a stroke. 1996. When I was out in the war. We did not even say goodbye.
My grandfather, Lavrentij Petrovich Babtjenko, one hundred percent zaporogkosack, was a tank driver. Fought at Chalchin - Gol River. In 1939. Wounded thirty times. Once seriously. And the injuries broke him in the end - he died in 1980, when I was three.
His wife, Yelena Mikhailovna Kuptsova (by first husband, her maiden name I do not know because she hid it well - Jew, of course), served during the war on the rooftops putting out the fire bombs. When the opportunity presented itself, she never took the chance to travel outside of Russia. She worked all her life until she died. Handled the boiler. In our house, in the basement. Three days a week .
She died a few months after her son. Then I was still out in the war. I do not even know how they buried her.
My great- grandmother surnamed Bachtijarova (partly Tatar, oh yes) came to Moscow in the 30's. With her two children, she received shelter in a boxroom at a school. There, she then came to work the rest of her life.
Her daughter, my grandmother, began working at age 14 and produced throughout the war iodoform - an antiseptic used in amputations. Then she joined the labor front and unloaded rail cars of coal. Or cut forest.
Her brother escaped at age 15 from the front during the first months of war and returned prior to 1956 - from Siberia.
Her grandson, my mother, traveled to Chechnya to fetch me home. She saw everything with their own eyes. She then adopted six children.
Mom is currently running an orphanage in her home. All children come from Lipetsk in central Russia. From broken families. Alcoholic parents, of course.
My wife's grandfather, Pyotr Gorkanov, pureblood Mordvin, fought during the Great Patriotic War with chemical weapons and lost his vision. Until his death he lived in the village. In a small house with a fireplace. Gas was not installed in his - the veterans, the invalids - lifetime.
My father in law, also pureblood Mordvin, served as second lieutenant in East Germany. When the Soviet Union collapsed, he, his wife and their two children sought shelter in various barracks and night shelters.
During all these nineteen years of adulthood - actually longer than that, from 1993 - I have taken all the shit together with my country. I was always where my country was in trouble. If it was at the White House, then I was there. In Chechnya , then I was there. In South Ossetia, then I was there. In Krymsk, then I was there. In Blagoveshchensk, yes, I was there too.
All this time I was, my family, my grandparents and relatives nothing but Russians for my country. When it was necessary to go to war at Chalchin - Gol, build rockets for very little pay, starved in cellars, produce iodoform to the front, stay overnight in the barracks with the kids, fall in Tajikistan, feed the lice in Chechnya, adopt abandoned children - then we were Russians.
In Chechnya, there was no one who ordered me to take my guns, go to Ukraine and get a identity crisis When you should die for the Russian homeland, the Russian homeland doesnt care if you are Jewish or not.
Then the homeland only knows a single nationality: cannon food.
That I should get to Ukraine I was told only recently.
By they who had never been out in a war, of course.
In the past couple of months I've heard more shit being said about me and my family than I've heard in my entire life.
On "Jewish fascist" Maidan, no one ever even came up with the idea to ask me about my nationality. Right sector, who fought shoulder to shoulder with the Russians, Jews, Crimean Tatars, Armenians, did not care. Simply did not care. It was not relevant.
But in my Homeland ...
The man for whose sake they started the second Chechen war, so that he would ascend to the throne, the man who himself never fought for his Motherland (he stayed far away from the Afghan war) and that since he came to power sends equally young conscripts instead of his own children to the wars which he now starts himself in Georgia and the Crimea, now this man tells me from the tribune, that I who voluntarily went out in his war, am a traitor, an enemy agent and a second rate person .
In my Homeland, I am now a Jew, a ukrainian son of a bitch, a fifth columnists and traitor to the nation.
Now tanks are moving against Slavjansk, armored vehicles against Kramatorsk, the "self- defense" has conquered three trucks with ammunition and a tank.
Okay, time to get moving again. Im going.
The Lord works in mysterious ways.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On April 16 2014 22:39 Ghanburighan wrote: I think Paleman finally made a worthwhile contribution to the thread. He demonstrated beyond doubt that behind all the justifications, pretty words, and obfuscating stories, or fear-mongering about fascism or whatnot, there lies the cold heart Russian mentality that might makes right: `if Russia decides to take its land back, it will take it.' And that's why people from all countries must unify against the threat of this mentality and force Russia to behave like a member of the international community does, because Russia will not do so itself, and we all know the consequences of allowing expansionist empires run amok.
yeah yeah, Russia always starts wars all over the world and did that in the past... It is/was the biggest world agressor ever!
oh wait, it not true... blame Russia anyway
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Irrelevant. Russia is the one starting a war and invading a country RIGHT NOW. Doesn't matter what others did in the past.
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