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On April 15 2014 02:59 Cheerio wrote:
Fifth part: Strelok reports to somebody named Konstantin Valeriovich but at the same telephone number from Russia. The information is mostly the same. The other man asks if they reported to Aksyonov [official leader of Crimean separatists] and says that he would be meating him [Aksyonov] shortly.
Update: Aksyonov was actually in Moscow today where he was meeting Putin. So that kind of adds up.
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On April 15 2014 03:20 Cheerio wrote:
Kyiv. The video was posted by what appears to be an official SBU youtube channel, and they confirmed the video to be true. There is nothing really groundbreaking so I don't see why they would falsify it.
I'm not saying it's false, and I'm quite sure it's legit. It's just evidence that one could in theory fabricate, so it's hard to use as 'hard evidence'. Regardles how 'legit' it is, Russia and their "federalist protestors" will just say it was fabricated. And with respect to the SBU, from my understanding they are basically the Ukrainian FSB and have really strong ties to FSB. Kinda messed up if a country that is invading you has extremely close ties to your entire intelligence community :/ I hope I'm wrong and if so please correct me 
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On April 15 2014 05:24 Mc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 03:20 Cheerio wrote:
Kyiv. The video was posted by what appears to be an official SBU youtube channel, and they confirmed the video to be true. There is nothing really groundbreaking so I don't see why they would falsify it. I'm not saying it's false, and I'm quite sure it's legit. It's just evidence that one could in theory fabricate, so it's hard to use as 'hard evidence'. Regardles how 'legit' it is, Russia and their "federalist protestors" will just say it was fabricated. And with respect to the SBU, from my understanding they are basically the Ukrainian FSB and have really strong ties to FSB. Kinda messed up if a country that is invading you has extremely close ties to your entire intelligence community :/ I hope I'm wrong and if so please correct me
Not wrong. And it's a major problem as many of the operatives were hired by the KGB, and they retain their allegiance. This led to, for example, the Simm spying scandal where one of these retained officers was forwarding all secret documents to the FSB for years.
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On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe.
(The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical)
I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable.
Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative.
Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position.
Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods.
The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't?
Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence".
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NY Times is reporting that Turchynov has asked Ban Ki Moon to send a peacekeeping force to Eastern Ukraine. Such a move would require approval from the security council of which Russia is a member
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Russian Federation17 Posts
On April 15 2014 06:07 TheFish7 wrote:NY Times is reporting that Turchynov has asked Ban Ki Moon to send a peacekeeping force to Eastern Ukraine. Such a move would require approval from the security council of which Russia is a member
Russia won't approve such a move. Lives of peacekeepers will be saved so don't worry for them.
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On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:
Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence".
But if it's not a moral argument we should work towards our interests too. That is to undermine Russia's power and try to destabilize Putin's and his allies' power at home.
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On April 15 2014 07:24 LocalPredictor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 06:07 TheFish7 wrote:NY Times is reporting that Turchynov has asked Ban Ki Moon to send a peacekeeping force to Eastern Ukraine. Such a move would require approval from the security council of which Russia is a member Russia won't approve such a move. Lives of peacekeepers will be saved so don't worry for them.
It would be to send a message to the Russian people. A list of all the countries saying they disapprove.
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On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe. (The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical) I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable. Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative. Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position. Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods. The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't? Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence".
He never compared the United States to Germany so he was not hypocritical. You are the one using a straw-man argument, of arguing USA vs Russia, when he was only speaking of Russia being bad and some Germans supportive.
I also understand why Russia feels threatened also. Russia fears NATO encirclement. However, it is not that the USA is/was forcing Europe into NATO, Europe needed, needs, and will need NATO--- at least as long as Russia is an aggressive country and Europe is too divided or too weak militarily. Russia controlled E. Europe up til 1990, invaded them whenever they tried to change their government, etc (I'm not saying the USA didn't do the same). It was Russia that forced NATO to come into former communist countries when it got the chance. Think about why your country joined NATO- to protect yourself from Russia. Half your country was occupied by Russians for 40 years for christ's sake.
One could say that this is a "chicken or the egg" type situation. If NATO wasn't at Russia's borders, then Russia wouldn't be so 'aggresive' and controlling in its' sphere of influence. If Russia wasn't so aggressive, NATO wouldn't need to be there. I DISAGREE. Look how Russia treats it's own people (plain Russians, Chechnyans,etc). How about we look at journalists killed by country since 1992: Germany 0 killed, all of Europe except balkans, spain, former-USSR, and england : 0. Russia 56 w/ motive confirmed, 24 motive unconfirmed. This is a violent totalitarian regime, and always has been. Russia is going to behave like this regardless of NATO presence.
Finally, let's assume NATO wasn't in E. Europe, how would it treat E. Europe? Well look at 1945-1990. It subjugated all of E. Europe against it's will, sending in the army whenever there was an uprising.
You as a German with your Soviet occupied history should be outraged, rather than passively saying "it's wrong, BUT I understand Putin and what he is doing 'is entirely reasonable' ". And as to that "reasonable" thing you mentioned, it's driving the Russian economy into an even bigger hole.
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Russian Federation17 Posts
On April 15 2014 08:24 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:
Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". But if it's not a moral argument we should work towards our interests too. That is to undermine Russia's power and try to destabilize Putin's and his allies' power at home.
*sigh* Let me tell you something... For at least last 15 years the "West"(mostly America) has been undermining Russia's power so hard you can't even imagine. Most of Russian people know it.
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On April 15 2014 09:17 Mc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe. (The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical) I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable. Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative. Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position. Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods. The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't? Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". You as a German with your Soviet occupied history should be outraged, rather than passively saying "it's wrong, BUT I understand Putin and what he is doing 'is entirely reasonable' ". And as to that "reasonable" thing you mentioned, it's driving the Russian economy into an even bigger hole.
Should he (we) now?
I personally am not okay with what russia is doing (posting history in here kinda shows), but to tell someone that based on his ethnicity he "should be outraged" without even knowing if he actually experienced that, is stupid. Obviously it's driving russias economy to the ground. Russians will soon feel the drawbacks of what putin has done.
That doesn't give you the right to tell other people when they should be "outraged". I drove to the Hoff-concert back in the days, to give you a hint about my age, and even i wouldn't know why someone should be outraged. The soviet occupation happened for a reason, it's not like they came out of the blue and marched into germany. What happened to crimea is in no way comparable to the soviets in east germany. It's silly to even think about a comparison.
In fact, even though i am one of the louder "condemners" in this thread, i sure do understand the reason why putin does what he does. I don't approve, obviously, but that doesn't matter. In a bubble where there is no "russia/us/eu" but just "country a/b/c" without "brandings", everyone would see the reason behind these actions.
Not that it makes them less retarded, but fact of the matter is, the US/EU/West had it coming. Big time. Even idiots like sarah palin could foresee it. That alone should give you a hint.
Edit: in fact, may i ask where you are from?
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Russian Federation17 Posts
On April 15 2014 08:54 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 07:24 LocalPredictor wrote:On April 15 2014 06:07 TheFish7 wrote:NY Times is reporting that Turchynov has asked Ban Ki Moon to send a peacekeeping force to Eastern Ukraine. Such a move would require approval from the security council of which Russia is a member Russia won't approve such a move. Lives of peacekeepers will be saved so don't worry for them. It would be to send a message to the Russian people. A list of all the countries saying they disapprove.
Where are these countries when it comes down to weak countries as Iraq, Libya, Syria? Question is rhetorical.
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On April 15 2014 04:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 04:04 doerit wrote:On April 15 2014 03:30 Ghanburighan wrote:
Although I don't recognize many of these names...
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Thanks Cheerio for translating that video! There is quite a bit of support for Putin across the German population. The comment sections of many major newspapers are full of vivid Russia supporters. When it comes to sources on the other hand most of the time conspiracy blogs or pages like rt.com are quoted. Imo this is a list of 200 nobodies, e.g."Alexander Bese, Krankenpfleger (nurse)". Of course some carry an university title and others are part of some kind of association. But all in all (just quickly read over it) it does not seem there is anybody of any importance on this list. and i would bet that most of them aren't actually germans, they're russians on the kremlin's payroll. pretty much every country that has big geopolitical interests pays people to comment on internet sites and push their line these days. i've read stories about the russians and the israelis doing it and we all know about chinese e-warriors and i would not be surprised at all if the US does it as well. which makes me mad at myself i need to find out where i can get some of this propaganda money sure as hell a lot easier than a real honest job...
I agree with you but I think it's already been established that there is actually some legitimate "Okay-ness" in Germany about the situation, as even some of our German forum fellows have expressed.
One funny thing I read a while ago that's somewhat related, was the US State Department budgeted more than half a million dollars for getting likes on Facebook for their page. When that was uncovered, hilarity ensued XD. It was criticized as "buying likes", which is about as silly a use of Facebook I've seen, though I'm not sure if people were actually directly paid to like the Facebook page. Either way, you gotta get on that stuff man.
On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe. (The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical) I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable. Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative. Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position. Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods. The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't? Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence".
More than anything, Russia has important military assets in Crimea that could be compromised if Ukraine were to be sucked up by some pan-European or US-led bloc (in particular, EU or NATO). Not what they want, but what they're doing right now is bad, too. Fortunately for the US, since you mention Mexico, we already conquered half of Mexico and Mexico has spent its entire history in a state of poverty and instability, and Canada is pretty much our backyard, politically-speaking. But I think the last thing either country has in mind is to cross us, and wisely, they don't 
I imagine you aware of the old territorial and mercantile empires of many European nations? Funnily enough, these are also for the most part the most well-to-do European nations today. It was the same thing for them before WW2. However, they were all competing with each other and warring with each other, which was detrimental, whereas the US was an ocean away, the only nation in the New World close to/on par with (and then surpassed) the European powers, building itself up. This is (among other reasons) why the US is where it is today. It wasn't destroyed and/or impoverished by wars or other forms of harmful competition every other year like many places in Europe.
On April 15 2014 09:45 LocalPredictor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 08:24 hypercube wrote:On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:
Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". But if it's not a moral argument we should work towards our interests too. That is to undermine Russia's power and try to destabilize Putin's and his allies' power at home. *sigh* Let me tell you something... For at least last 15 years the "West"(mostly America) has been undermining Russia's power so hard you can't even imagine. Most of Russian people know it.
Russia has a lot of work to do on its economy before it can truly be considered powerful in terms that aren't political or military.
However, to be fair, we only liked Russia when it wasn't even a functioning country. lol.
I can understand you are jaded by this thread. The overall vibe is fairly anti-Russian xD. But I'm sure we can be in agreement that the political actions at hand here are not justified politically or morally. Obviously there are vested Russian strategic interests in this situation, but this does not justify the annexation of territory. Do not say otherwise.
You want Russia to be powerful so badly? Well let me tell you something. You can do your part. Go to university (assuming you aren't already), work hard in some field of engineering or the sciences, graduate and enter the work world, and you will be a valuable member of society, and you'd certainly have a lot to be proud of. You would be doing yourself, and if you care about it so much, your country a greater service than anything else you could do, and you'd be a vital part in the world of modern economies that depend on such fields in order to progress.
On April 15 2014 09:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 09:17 Mc wrote:On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe. (The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical) I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable. Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative. Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position. Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods. The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't? Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". You as a German with your Soviet occupied history should be outraged, rather than passively saying "it's wrong, BUT I understand Putin and what he is doing 'is entirely reasonable' ". And as to that "reasonable" thing you mentioned, it's driving the Russian economy into an even bigger hole. Should he (we) now? I personally am not okay with what russia is doing (posting history in here kinda shows), but to tell someone that based on his ethnicity he "should be outraged" without even knowing if he actually experienced that, is stupid. Obviously it's driving russias economy to the ground. Russians will soon feel the drawbacks of what putin has done. That doesn't give you the right to tell other people when they should be "outraged". I drove to the Hoff-concert back in the days, to give you a hint about my age, and even i wouldn't know why someone should be outraged. The soviet occupation happened for a reason, it's not like they came out of the blue and marched into germany. What happened to crimea is in no way comparable to the soviets in east germany. It's silly to even think about a comparison. In fact, even though i am one of the louder "condemners" in this thread, i sure do understand the reason why putin does what he does. I don't approve, obviously, but that doesn't matter. In a bubble where there is no "russia/us/eu" but just "country a/b/c" without "brandings", everyone would see the reason behind these actions. Not that it makes them less retarded, but fact of the matter is, the US/EU/West had it coming. Big time. Even idiots like sarah palin could foresee it. That alone should give you a hint. Edit: in fact, may i ask where you are from?
He's stated he's Polish iirc. While I understand his sentiments and in some ways I agree with them, I found his comment a bit strange considering I should be outraged about matters, to which I technically have personal connections, significantly more outrageous than the Crimea matter (which doesn't even directly affect Germany or Germans, at that), and yet I'm not :S. But where I come from specifically, people are known for being chill, so meh.
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On April 15 2014 09:45 LocalPredictor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 08:24 hypercube wrote:On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:
Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". But if it's not a moral argument we should work towards our interests too. That is to undermine Russia's power and try to destabilize Putin's and his allies' power at home. *sigh* Let me tell you something... For at least last 15 years the "West"(mostly America) has been undermining Russia's power so hard you can't even imagine. Most of Russian people know it.
Yes. Everyone is out to get you, and you were defenseless victims until Tsar Putin came back and now you will show everyone how mighty you are and Tsar putin will protect you forever and ever or until the oil runs out.
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On April 15 2014 09:57 LocalPredictor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 08:54 heliusx wrote:On April 15 2014 07:24 LocalPredictor wrote:On April 15 2014 06:07 TheFish7 wrote:NY Times is reporting that Turchynov has asked Ban Ki Moon to send a peacekeeping force to Eastern Ukraine. Such a move would require approval from the security council of which Russia is a member Russia won't approve such a move. Lives of peacekeepers will be saved so don't worry for them. It would be to send a message to the Russian people. A list of all the countries saying they disapprove. Where are those countries when it comes down to weak countries as Iraq, Libya, Syria? Question is rhetorical.
Is that supposed to be some kind of retort? Question is rhetorical.
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On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe. (The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical) I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable. Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative. Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position. Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods. The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't? Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence".
What a bunch of nonsense. No, the US hasn't done anything comparable in the 21st century, not even close. Resisting obvious and grief violation of international law is not 'hypocritical'. The monroe doctrine didn't prohibit 'foreign activity' as a whole but colonization. Ukraine was never about to join the NATO, if anything it has only become possible after the crimean crisis... if you knew anything about the subject (which you obviously don't), you'd know NATO rejected to even negotiate ukrainian membership because they did take russias position account.
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On April 15 2014 09:45 LocalPredictor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 08:24 hypercube wrote:On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:
Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". But if it's not a moral argument we should work towards our interests too. That is to undermine Russia's power and try to destabilize Putin's and his allies' power at home. *sigh* Let me tell you something... For at least last 15 years the "West"(mostly America) has been undermining Russia's power so hard you can't even imagine. Most of Russian people know it.
Yes, and most countries from the former Eastern bloc are happy with that.
It doesn't matter if the US is being hypocritical. Russia is actually a threat and they're not.
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On April 15 2014 10:32 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 05:44 DrCooper wrote:On April 15 2014 04:22 Saryph wrote:
It's a real shame there are so many people (especially from Germany) who can agree with a country that is aggressively putting military personnel into neighboring countries with the intent of annexation and destabilization of the world. Also even more so is the idea that these same people can agree with a country who is on a legislative level declaring themselves superior to all of the other countries and races of the world. It just comes across as a little too 1930s for me.
Edit: Not trying to call out Germans here, it was just that they have been mentioned several times in this thread as having much higher support for Putin and Russia's actions than the rest of (western) Europe. (The US government (NSA and CIA) did the same in the past, stop being so hypocritical) I don't support the action of Russia in any way. However I understand why they are doing it. And it is entirely reasonable. Look at the situation from the russian point of view. Since the USSR fell, we haven't exactly been non-provocative. Ideas like 'Zones of Control' or 'Areas of Influence' are not a thing of the past, to think so would be ludicrous. The US for example has the Monroe Doctrine, which basically prohibits any foreign activity anywhere in The Americas. North and South America. That is a huge zone of control and yet we think it is perfectly fine for Ukraine to join the NATO? Where does that make any sense? Lets put the USA in a similar position. Think about it this way: Lets go back to the sixties and seventies. What would the US do if Mexico was to join the Warsaw Pact? I assure you, they would not let that happen. Or how about something that actually happened: Operation Northwoods. The US wanted to stage a cuban terrorist attack - they were willing to kill their own citizens - in order to go to war with cuba and increase their 'zone of control' or 'zone of influence'. Exactly what Russia is doing now. The U.S would not let Russia set up military bases in cuba again. Just in case a dictator in South America were to do something bad. But the NATO is doing exactly that in Europe. Why do the Russians have to put up with that but we don't? Now I don't mean to justify what Putin is doing by saying "BUT BUT BUT THE USA DID IT TOO!!!111". Again I DO NOT support Putins actions in any way. However I can understand his side, what Russia goes through. It is a World Power (yes it is) that tries to defend it's "Area of Influence". What a bunch of nonsense. No, the US hasn't done anything comparable in the 21st century, not even close. Resisting obvious and grief violation of international law is not 'hypocritical'. The monroe doctrine didn't prohibit 'foreign activity' as a whole but colonization. Ukraine was never about to join the NATO, if anything it has only become possible after the crimean crisis... if you knew anything about the subject (which you obviously don't), you'd know NATO rejected to even negotiate ukrainian membership because they did take russias position account.
Wat?
That's quite wrong. Not NATO rejected anything, but Yanukovich opted out. Because i'm lazy, here wikipedia.
Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1995. Ukraine is as of January 2008 a candidate to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP).[1][2] On December 3, 2008 NATO decided it will work out an Annual National Programme of providing assistance to Ukraine to implement reforms required to accede the alliance without referring to MAP.[3] Plans for Ukrainian membership to NATO were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych was elected President.[4] President Yanukovych opted to keep Ukraine a non-aligned state.[5] This materialized on June 3, 2010 when the Ukrainian parliament excluded, with 226 votes, the goal of "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy.[6] "European integration" is still part of Ukraine's national security strategy and co-operation with NATO was not excluded.[6] Ukraine considers its relations with NATO as a partnership.[7][8] Ukraine and NATO still hold joint seminars and joint tactical and strategical exercises and operations.[9][10]
According to numerous independent polls conducted over the past few years, Ukrainian public opinion on NATO membership is low.[11][12][13][14][15][16] A 2009 Gallup poll asked Ukrainians whether they saw NATO as a threat or protection for Ukraine; 40% saw NATO as a threat, 17% saw NATO as protection, and 33% saw NATO as neither.[17]
Russia's reactions to the 2008 plan of the (then) Ukrainian Government to join MAP were hostile. A NATO spokesman said that despite Russian reactions towards NATO's eastward expansion the alliance's door remained open to those who met the criteria.[18] Objections to Ukrainian membership in NATO include the nature of the decision as a departure from the original purpose of the alliance, political instability in Ukraine, the difficulty of defending Ukraine militarily, and the absence of a clear NATO interest in defending Ukraine
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EPT
