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Ukraine Crisis - Page 417

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 04:24:15
April 14 2014 04:10 GMT
#8321
When the hell did random armed protesters become rank-and-file Russian soldiers?


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/04/gunfire-erupts-eastern-ukraine-town-2014412175057150674.html

A group of pro-Russian men armed with automatic weapons have taken control of the police headquarters in the Ukrainian city of Kramatorsk, 150 km from the Russian border, local officials and witnesses said.

An organised military unit of over 20 men wearing matching military fatigues and carrying automatic weapon took over the building around 1700 GMT after arriving on at least two buses.

Video footage showed the men taking orders from a commander and shooting from automatic rifles as they approached the building.


Last week it was "random" armed protesters (these "random armed protesters" are militia and it's pretty obvious where they take their orders from) in civilian clothing or mis-matched chucked-together uniforms with a similar mish-mash of weapons, now it is guys all in the same unmarked uniforms with very modern and well-maintained Russian military assault rifles, taking orders from a single guy who is obviously their commander, using fire-and-move tactics.

The exact same thing as happened in Crimea. First Russia tells its not uniformly-equipped proxies who are actually Ukrainian civilians of Russian descent who want to rejoin Russia to start making moves, then soldiers wearing identical uniforms all equipped with the same weapons but no insignia who are obviously Russian soldiers to anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand appear, and then... it remains to be seen if Moscow will continue to follow the script that played out in Crimea.

Anyway while Russia is getting all the attention here, the Kiev government has re-instituted a deadline for these "protesters" to stop. Originally they had until Friday and then Kiev caved because the bear growled but now the deadline is back on. Ukrainians who don't want to be Moscow's bitch anymore are pretty pissed about the Ukrainian officer killed during a gun battle in Slaviansk.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/04/ukrainian-troops-and-pro-russian-militants-engage-in-first-armed-clash/360578/

2:51 p.m.: Ukrainian officials have issued an ultimatum to the various groups of pro-Russian gunman and mobs currently holding court in government buildings across eastern Ukraine: Disarm by Monday or be disarmed.

Angered by the death of a state security officer and the wounding of two comrades near the flashpoint eastern city of Slaviansk, acting president Oleksander Turchinov gave rebels occupying state buildings until 0600 GMT to lay down their weapons."
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
April 14 2014 04:23 GMT
#8322
On April 14 2014 13:10 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
When the hell did random armed protesters become rank-and-file Russian soldiers?


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/04/gunfire-erupts-eastern-ukraine-town-2014412175057150674.html

Show nested quote +
A group of pro-Russian men armed with automatic weapons have taken control of the police headquarters in the Ukrainian city of Kramatorsk, 150 km from the Russian border, local officials and witnesses said.

An organised military unit of over 20 men wearing matching military fatigues and carrying automatic weapon took over the building around 1700 GMT after arriving on at least two buses.

Video footage showed the men taking orders from a commander and shooting from automatic rifles as they approached the building.


Last week it was "random" armed protesters (these "random armed protesters" are militia and it's pretty obvious where they take their orders from) in civilian clothing or mis-matched chucked-together uniforms with a similar mish-mash of weapons, now it is guys all in the same unmarked uniforms with very modern and well-maintained Russian military assault rifles, taking orders from a single guy who is obviously their commander, using fire-and-move tactics.

The exact same thing as happened in Crimea. First Russia tells its not uniformly-equipped proxies who are actually Ukrainian civilians of Russian descent who want to rejoin Russia to start making moves, then soldiers wearing identical uniforms all equipped with the same weapons but no insignia who are obviously Russian soldiers to anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand appear, and then... it remains to be seen if Moscow will continue to follow the script that played out in Crimea.

Witnesses said the men occupying the police headquarters were wearing the uniforms of Berkut, the uniform of Ukraine's feared but now-defunct riot police.


Meanwhile, the Donetsk police chief stepped down on Saturday, bowing to demand from the pro-Russian separatists.

"In accordance with your demands I am stepping down," police chief Kostyantyn Pozhydayev told the protesters


this sounds more likely(same article).
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
April 14 2014 04:30 GMT
#8323
this sounds more likely:

kramatorsk and donetsk city are not names for the same place

they are in fact two different places

men in berkut uniforms occupied a police station in donetsk city

men in unmarked military uniforms with military weapons made a military assault on the police headquarters in kramatorsk and captured it.

kramatorsk is in donetsk oblast but these are two different police stations / headquarters we're talking about. berkut uniforms and the uniforms the guys at kramatorsk were wearing are different anyway (black vs camo)

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/shootout-in-kramatorsk-next-on-wave-of-russian-assault-on-donetsk-oblast-343255.html

those aren't berkut uniforms

read a little more carefully next time to make sure what the party line is before you toe it comrade
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 05:08:28
April 14 2014 04:35 GMT
#8324
haha, i'm not quite sure i follow your logic though.
still sounds more likely that it's berkut than russian soldiers.

care to explain your line of reasoning a bit more in depth?
maybe especially this part i found a bit tough to follow:
armed 'protestors' in different places wearing different uniforms, ergo russian soldiers.

or was it meant to be an ex hyperlinkio proof?
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 06:40:06
April 14 2014 06:14 GMT
#8325


***

There's all manner of groups in Ukraine at the moment. But there are also Russian special forces. There's two types of evidence for this. One was offered at the UN:



The second is the four different reports in the last week of Russian special forces operatives being arrested in Eastern Ukraine.


***
Edit: This says it better:


“No amount of propaganda can make right something that the world knows is wrong.”
– President Obama, March 26

Russia continues to spin a false and dangerous narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine. The Russian propaganda machine continues to promote hate speech and incite violence by creating a false threat in Ukraine that does not exist. We would not be seeing the violence and sad events that we've witnessed this weekend without this relentless stream of disinformation and Russian provocateurs fostering unrest in eastern Ukraine. Here are 10 more false claims Russia is using to justify intervention in Ukraine, with the facts that these assertions ignore or distort.

1. Russia Claims: Russian agents are not active in Ukraine.

Fact: The Ukrainian Government has arrested more than a dozen suspected Russian intelligence agents in recent weeks, many of whom were armed at the time of arrest. In the first week of April 2014, the Government of Ukraine had information that Russian GRU officers were providing individuals in Kharkiv and Donetsk with advice and instructions on conducting protests, capturing and holding government buildings, seizing weapons from the government buildings’ armories, and redeploying for other violent actions. On April 12, armed pro-Russian militants seized government buildings in a coordinated and professional operation conducted in six cities in eastern Ukraine. Many were outfitted in bullet-proof vests, camouflage uniforms with insignia removed, and carrying Russian-designed weapons like AK-74s and Dragunovs. These armed units, some wearing black and orange St. George’s ribbons associated with Russian Victory Day celebrations, raised Russian and separatist flags over seized buildings and have called for referendums on secession and union with Russia. These operations are strikingly similar to those used against Ukrainian facilities during Russia’s illegal military intervention in Crimea in late February and its subsequent occupation.

2. Russia Claims: Pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kyiv.

Fact: This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protestors to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life. Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence. There is evidence that many of these so-called “protesters” are paid for their participation in the violence and unrest. It is clear that these incidents are not spontaneous events, but rather part of a well-orchestrated Russian campaign of incitement, separatism, and sabotage of the Ukrainian state. Ukrainian authorities continue to arrest highly trained and well-equipped Russian provocateurs operating across the region.

3. Russia Claims: Separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine enjoy broad popular support.

Fact: The recent demonstrations in eastern Ukraine are not organic and lack wide support in the region. A large majority of Donetsk residents (65.7 percent) want to live in a united Ukraine and reject unification with Russia, according to public opinion polls conducted at the end of March by the Donetsk-based Institute of Social Research and Policy Analysis. Pro-Russian demonstrations in eastern Ukraine have been modest in size, especially compared with Maidan protests in these same cities in December, and they have gotten smaller as time has progressed.

4. Russia Claims: The situation in eastern Ukraine risks spiraling into civil war.

Fact: What is going on in eastern Ukraine would not be happening without Russian disinformation and provocateurs fostering unrest. It would not be happening if a large Russian military force were not massed on the border, destabilizing the situation through their overtly threatening presence. There simply have not been large-scale protests in the region. A small number of separatists have seized several government buildings in eastern cities like Donetsk, Luhansk, and Slovyansk, but they have failed to attract any significant popular support. Ukrainian authorities have shown remarkable restraint in their efforts to resolve the situation and only acted when provoked by armed militants and public safety was put at risk. Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) observers have reported that these incidents are very localized.

5. Russia Claims: Ukrainians in Donetsk rejected the illegitimate authorities in Kyiv and established the independent “People’s Republic of Donetsk.”

Fact: A broad and representative collection of civil society and non-governmental organizations in Donetsk categorically rejected the declaration of a “People’s Republic of Donetsk” by the small number of separatists occupying the regional administration building. These same organizations confirmed their support for the interim government and for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

6. Russia Claims: Russia ordered a “partial drawdown” of troops from the Ukrainian border.

Fact: No evidence shows significant movement of Russian forces away from the Ukrainian border. One battalion is not enough. An estimated 35,000-40,000 Russian troops remain massed along the border, in addition to approximately 25,000 troops currently in Crimea.

7. Russia Claims: Ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.

Fact: There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine. An International Republican Institute poll released April 5 found that 74 percent of the Russian-speaking population in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine said they “were not under pressure or threat because of their language.” Meanwhile, in Crimea, the OSCE has raised urgent concerns for the safety of minority populations, especially ethnic Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, and others. Sadly, the ethnic Russians most at risk are those who live in Russia and who oppose the authoritarian Putin regime. These Russians are harassed constantly and face years of imprisonment for speaking out against Putin’s regular abuses of power.

8. Russia Claims: Ukraine’s new government is led by radical nationalists and fascists.

Fact: The Ukrainian parliament (Rada) did not change in February. It is the same Rada that was elected by all Ukrainians, comprising all of the parties that existed prior to February’s events, including former president Yanukovych’s Party of Regions. The new government, approved by an overwhelming majority in the parliament -- including many members of Yanukovych’s former party -- is committed to protecting the rights of all Ukrainians, including those in Crimea.

9. Russia Claims: Ethnic minorities face persecution in Ukraine from the “fascist” government in Kyiv.

Fact: Leaders of Ukraine’s Jewish as well as German, Czech, and Hungarian communities have all publicly expressed their sense of safety under the new authorities in Kyiv. Moreover, many minority groups expressed fear of persecution in Russian-occupied Crimea, a concern OSCE observers in Ukraine have substantiated.

10. Russia Claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.

Fact: Following Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80 percent in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11 billion in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords. Russia’s moves threaten to increase severely the economic pain faced by Ukrainian citizens and businesses. Additionally, Russia continues to restrict Ukrainian exports to Russia, which constitute a significant portion of Ukraine’s export economy.
Source.


***
Might as well make this a full fact-checking post:


Russia’s accusations - setting the record straight
Fact Sheet - April 2014


Russia’s aggression against Ukraine has led to Russia’s international isolation, including NATO’s suspension of all practical cooperation with Russia. To divert attention away from its actions, Russia has levelled a series of accusations against NATO which are based on misrepresentations of the facts and ignore the sustained effort that NATO has put into building a partnership with Russia. Russia has also made baseless attacks on the legitimacy of the Ukrainian authorities and has used force to seize part of Ukraine’s territory. This document sets the record straight.

NATO - Russia relations

Russia claims that NATO has spent years trying to marginalise it internationally.
Since the early 1990s the Alliance has consistently worked to build a cooperative relationship with Russia on areas of mutual interest, and striven towards a strategic partnership.
Before the fall of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, NATO began reaching out, offering dialogue in place of confrontation, as the London NATO Summit of July 1990 made clear (declaration here). In the following years, the Alliance promoted dialogue and cooperation by creating new fora, the Partnership for Peace (PfP) and the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (EAPC), open to the whole of Europe, including Russia (PfP founding documents here and here).
As a sign of Russia’s unique role in Euro-Atlantic security, in 1997 NATO and Russia signed the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security, creating the NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council. In 2002 they upgraded that relationship, creating the NATO-Russia Council (NRC). (The Founding Act can be read here, the Rome Declaration which established the NRC here.)

Since the foundation of the NRC, NATO and Russia have worked together on issues ranging from counter-narcotics and counter-terrorism to submarine rescue and civil emergency planning. No other partner has been offered a comparable relationship.

Far from marginalising Russia, NATO has treated it as a privileged partner.


NATO’s continuation and enlargement

Russian officials say that NATO should have been disbanded at the end of the Cold War, and that the accession of new Allies from Central and Eastern Europe undermines Russia’s security.

NATO was not disbanded after the Cold War because its members wanted to retain the bond that had guaranteed security and stability in the transatlantic area, as the London Declaration makes clear: “We need to keep standing together, to extend the long peace we have enjoyed these past four decades”. Upholding the values that have always guided it, NATO became more than a powerful military Alliance: it became a political forum for dialogue and cooperation.

NATO’s Open Door policy has been, and will always be, based on the free choice of European democracies. When Ukraine decided to pursue a “non-bloc policy,” NATO fully respected that choice. Russia’s long-time assertion that NATO tried to force Ukraine into its ranks was, and remains, completely false.

NATO has fulfilled the terms of Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty (available here) which states that Allies “may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty.”

On six occasions, between 1952 and 2009, European countries made the choice to apply for membership based on a democratic process and respect for the rule of law. NATO Allies made the unanimous choice to accept them.
NATO and EU enlargement has helped the nations of Central and Eastern Europe to tackle difficult reforms, which were required prior to accession. It has helped their citizens enjoy the benefits of democratic choice, the rule of law, and substantial economic growth. These efforts have moved Europe closer to being whole, free, and at peace than at any other time in history.

Russia also subscribed to this vision in the Founding Act. It committed to “creating in Europe a common space of security and stability, without dividing lines or spheres of influence,” and to “respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security.”
Contrary to those commitments, Russia now appears to be attempting to recreate a sphere of influence by seizing a part of Ukraine, maintaining large numbers of forces on its borders, and demanding, as Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently stated, that “Ukraine cannot be part of any bloc.”

Russian claims that NATO promised not to enlarge

Russian officials claim that US and German officials promised in 1990 that NATO would not expand into Eastern and Central Europe, build military infrastructure near Russia’s borders or permanently deploy troops there.
No such pledge was made, and no evidence to back up Russia’s claims has ever been produced. Should such a promise have been made by NATO as such, it would have to have been as a formal, written decision by all NATO Allies. Furthermore, the consideration of enlarging NATO came years after German reunification. This issue was not yet on the agenda when Russia claims these promises were made.

Allegations about NATO pledging not to build infrastructure close to Russia are equally inaccurate. In the Founding Act, NATO reiterated “in the current and foreseeable security environment, the Alliance will carry out its collective defence and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces. Accordingly, it will have to rely on adequate infrastructure commensurate with the above tasks. In this context, reinforcement may take place, when necessary, in the event of defence against a threat of aggression and missions in support of peace consistent with the United Nations Charter and the OSCE governing principles, as well as for exercises consistent with the adapted CFE Treaty, the provisions of the Vienna Document 1994 and mutually agreed transparency measures.”

NATO has indeed supported the upgrading of military infrastructure, such as air bases, in the countries which have joined the Alliance, commensurate with the requirements for reinforcement and exercises. However, the only combat forces permanently stationed on the territory of the new members are their own armed forces.

Even before the Ukraine crisis, the only routinely visible sign of Alliance forces in the new members were the NATO jets used in the Baltic States for the air policing mission. These minimal defensive assets cannot be described as substantial combat forces in the meaning of the Founding Act.

Since the crisis, NATO has taken steps to increase situational awareness and bolster the defences of our Eastern members. This, too, is entirely consistent with the Founding Act and is a direct result of Russia’s destabilizing military actions.
Finally, the Act also states, “Russia will exercise similar restraint in its conventional force deployments in Europe.” Russia’s aggression against Ukraine is a flagrant breach of this commitment, as is its unilateral suspension of compliance with the CFE Treaty.

Russian claims that NATO has ignored its concerns over missile defence

NATO has not ignored Russia’s concerns. On the contrary, the Alliance has consistently sought cooperation with Russia on missile defence. At the Lisbon Summit of 2010, NATO Heads of State and Government “decided to develop a missile defence capability to protect all NATO European populations, territory and forces, and invited Russia to cooperate with us” (declaration here).

This was reiterated at the Chicago Summit in May 2012 (here), where leaders underlined that NATO “remains committed to cooperation on missile defence in a spirit of mutual trust and reciprocity”, and stated explicitly that NATO missile defence “will not undermine Russia’s strategic deterrence capabilities”. NATO also proposed a transparency regime including the creation of two NATO-Russia joint missile-defence centres. Russia has declined these offers.

These Summit declarations are more than political promises: they define NATO’s policies. Rather than taking NATO up on cooperation, Russia has advanced arguments that ignore physics as well as NATO’s expressed policies. Independent Russian military experts have made clear that NATO’s missile defence programme could not pose any threat to Russia or degrade the effectiveness of its strategic deterrent forces. The Russian government has used missile defence as an excuse for accusations rather than an opportunity for partnership.

Russian criticism of the legitimacy of NATO military actions – Libya

In seeking to defend its illegal actions in Crimea, Russia has attacked the legitimacy of some of NATO’s operations.
This includes the NATO-led operation of 2011 to protect civilians in Libyan. The NATO-led operation was launched under the authority of two UN Security Council Resolutions (UNSCR), UNSCRs 1970 & 1973, both quoting Chapter VII of the UN Charter, and neither of which was opposed by Russia. President Putin recently accused NATO of violating the resolutions by bombing Libya. This is entirely inaccurate.

UNSCR 1973 authorized NATO “to take all necessary measures” to “protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack”, which is what NATO did, with the political and military support of regional states and members of the Arab League.

After the conflict, NATO cooperated with the UN International Commission of Inquiry on Libya, which found no breach of UNSCR 1973 or international law, concluding instead that “NATO conducted a highly precise campaign with a demonstrable determination to avoid civilian casualties.”

Russia criticism of the legitimacy of NATO military actions – Kosovo

The NATO operation related to Kosovo followed over a year of intense efforts by the UN and the Contact Group, of which Russia was a member, to bring about a peaceful solution. The UN Security Council on several occasions branded the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and the mounting number of refugees driven from their homes as a threat to international peace and security. NATO’s Operation Allied Force was launched despite the lack of Security Council authorisation to prevent the large-scale and sustained violations of human rights and the killing of civilians.

Following the air campaign, the subsequent NATO-led operation, KFOR, which initially included Russia, has been under UN mandate (UNSCR1244), with the aim of providing a safe and secure environment for Kosovo. This led to nearly ten years of diplomacy, under UN authority, to find a political solution and to settle Kosovo’s final status, as prescribed by UNSCR 1244.
The Kosovo operation was conducted following exhaustive discussion involving the whole international community dealing with a long-running crisis. In Crimea, with no evidence of a crisis and no attempt to negotiate any form of solution, Russia bypassed the whole international community, including the UN, and simply occupied a part of another country’s territory.

Russian claims that the Ukrainian authorities are illegitimate

The current Ukrainian president and government were approved by an overwhelming majority in the Ukrainian parliament (371 votes out of 417 registered) on 27 February 2014, including members of the Party of Regions.
That parliament was elected on 28 October 2012. The Russian Foreign Ministry at the time declared that the elections were held “peacefully, without any excesses and in line with generally-accepted standards” and “confirmed Ukraine’s commitment to democracy and the rule of law.” The statement can be read in Russian here.
The parliament which Russia called legitimate then can hardly be called illegitimate now.

Russian officials claim that the so-called referendum in Crimea on 16 March was legal.

The referendum was illegal according to the Ukrainian constitution (available in Ukrainian here, Russian here, English here), which states that questions “of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum. Crimea, as part of Ukraine, has the status of an autonomous republic, but any issues about its authority have to be resolved by the Ukrainian parliament (article 134) and its constitution has to be approved by the Ukrainian parliament (article 135).

Additionally, the so-called referendum was organized in a matter of weeks by a self-proclaimed Crimean leadership that was installed by armed Russian military personnel after seizing government buildings.
Russian claims that the annexation of Crimea was justified by the opinion of the International Court of Justice on the independence of Kosovo Russian leaders claim that the precedent for the so-called declaration of independence of Crimea was the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice on the independence of Kosovo (online here).
However, the court stated clearly that their opinion was not a precedent. The court said they had been given a “narrow and specific” question about Kosovo’s independence which would not cover the broader legal consequences of that decision.
The court highlighted circumstances in which claims for independence would be illegal. This would include if “they were, or would have been, connected with the unlawful use of force”. An example of “an unlawful use of force” would be an invasion and occupation by a neighbouring country – which is exactly what Russia has done.

Furthermore, the process leading to Kosovo’s declaration of independence spanned years and included an extensive process led by the United Nations. Russian claims ignore all of these facts.

Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
sgtnoobkilla
Profile Joined July 2012
Australia249 Posts
April 14 2014 06:57 GMT
#8326
Despite some of Churkin's responses being questionable, you have to hand it to the Russians for being somewhat consistent (still denying that those troops in Crimea were Russian hah!).

Some of the Ukrainian UN rep's statements were /facepalm worthy; especially when he mentioned "men with AK-100s, a rifle exclusively used by the Russian Federation".

And in other news, the deadline's up:
Don't play with your food unless it plays with you first.
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 08:07:42
April 14 2014 07:53 GMT
#8327
On April 14 2014 15:57 sgtnoobkilla wrote:
Despite some of Churkin's responses being questionable, you have to hand it to the Russians for being somewhat consistent (still denying that those troops in Crimea were Russian hah!).

Some of the Ukrainian UN rep's statements were /facepalm worthy; especially when he mentioned "men with AK-100s, a rifle exclusively used by the Russian Federation".

And in other news, the deadline's up:
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/455595724471009280

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that. The AK-100 (specifically this numbering), as far as I'm aware, does not exist, unless he meant the AK-10X series rifles (which I think he did).

In any case, while a few variants in the AK-10X series are almost only used by Russian forces (in limited usage), others like the AK-101, 102, and 103, are primarily intended for export. Sure, it may seem like a minor detail, but when trying to base an overwhelmingly important political claim off of it, then it's hardly unimportant when you say this series of rifles is exclusive only to Russia. Fortunately, there are plenty of other points to be made for their (Ukrainian) cause.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 07:58:59
April 14 2014 07:58 GMT
#8328
On April 14 2014 16:53 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 15:57 sgtnoobkilla wrote:
Despite some of Churkin's responses being questionable, you have to hand it to the Russians for being somewhat consistent (still denying that those troops in Crimea were Russian hah!).

Some of the Ukrainian UN rep's statements were /facepalm worthy; especially when he mentioned "men with AK-100s, a rifle exclusively used by the Russian Federation".

And in other news, the deadline's up:
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/455595724471009280

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that. The AK-100 (specifically this numbering), as far as I'm aware, does not exist, unless he meant the AK-10X series rifles.

In any case, while a few variants in the AK-10X series are almost only used by Russian forces (in limited usage), others like the AK-101, 102, and 103, are primarily intended for export. Sure, it may seem like a minor detail, but when trying to base an overwhelmingly important political claim off of it, then it's hardly unimportant.

How do you know so much about guns is what makes me wonder
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
April 14 2014 08:05 GMT
#8329
On April 14 2014 16:58 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 16:53 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On April 14 2014 15:57 sgtnoobkilla wrote:
Despite some of Churkin's responses being questionable, you have to hand it to the Russians for being somewhat consistent (still denying that those troops in Crimea were Russian hah!).

Some of the Ukrainian UN rep's statements were /facepalm worthy; especially when he mentioned "men with AK-100s, a rifle exclusively used by the Russian Federation".

And in other news, the deadline's up:
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/455595724471009280

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that. The AK-100 (specifically this numbering), as far as I'm aware, does not exist, unless he meant the AK-10X series rifles.

In any case, while a few variants in the AK-10X series are almost only used by Russian forces (in limited usage), others like the AK-101, 102, and 103, are primarily intended for export. Sure, it may seem like a minor detail, but when trying to base an overwhelmingly important political claim off of it, then it's hardly unimportant.

How do you know so much about guns is what makes me wonder

Pwning n00bs at Counter-Strike. :D

But seriously, I used to be a huge military tech nut some years ago, especially in regards to heavy armored vehicles.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 14 2014 10:48 GMT
#8330




Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
April 14 2014 11:01 GMT
#8331
So it seems Russia decided to copy Serbia and start a rebellion inside Ukraine and then they will probably follow that with a "humanitarian military action"...
PaleMan
Profile Joined October 2002
Russian Federation1953 Posts
April 14 2014 11:09 GMT
#8332
It seems like US+EU who started Euromaidan decided to copy Serbia, but this time Russia is strong enough to interfere and play its game
Pure fan
mdb
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
Bulgaria4059 Posts
April 14 2014 11:13 GMT
#8333
On April 14 2014 20:01 -Archangel- wrote:
So it seems Russia decided to copy Serbia and start a rebellion inside Ukraine and then they will probably follow that with a "humanitarian military action"...

yeah, my thoughts exactly...
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 11:18:39
April 14 2014 11:18 GMT
#8334
On April 14 2014 20:09 PaleMan wrote:
It seems like US+EU who started Euromaidan decided to copy Serbia, but this time Russia is strong enough to interfere and play its game

Nah, not strong enough. Needs more econ. Should have waited a decade.

It seems like US+EU who started Euromaidan decided to copy Serbia

Huh?
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
April 14 2014 11:24 GMT
#8335
Look at the people who were protesting on euromaidan for weeks. Women and men of all ages and in great numbers. Thats what it looks like when the people want change. Now look at eastern ukraine. Small groups of exclusively armed men. Thats not an uprising of the people.
Acertos
Profile Joined February 2012
France852 Posts
April 14 2014 11:29 GMT
#8336
On April 14 2014 20:09 PaleMan wrote:
It seems like US+EU who started Euromaidan decided to copy Serbia, but this time Russia is strong enough to interfere and play its game

Ukraine isn't part of Russia so that's not the same at all. And I don't understand why some people tend to think that the defeat of Serbia was not a good thing, it started an ethnic cleansing on a region that wanted to be independent.
Now there is no showing that a majority of Eastern Ukrainians want to become part of Russia, and the central government of Ukraine won't start to attack its own people but a few mad separatists and some Russians.

Anyway plz stop using the same arguments you used 1000 times which were repealed 1000 times.
BeaSteR
Profile Joined May 2009
Sweden328 Posts
April 14 2014 11:33 GMT
#8337
On April 14 2014 20:24 Fjodorov wrote:
Look at the people who were protesting on euromaidan for weeks. Women and men of all ages and in great numbers. Thats what it looks like when the people want change. Now look at eastern ukraine. Small groups of exclusively armed men. Thats not an uprising of the people.

Exactly my thoughts when I see the pictures. The Euromaidan were made up of normal Ukrainian people of different age. These people looks like paramilitary organizations with specific targets to occupy.
Greed is good
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-14 11:40:20
April 14 2014 11:40 GMT
#8338
On April 14 2014 20:09 PaleMan wrote:
It seems like US+EU who started Euromaidan decided to copy Serbia, but this time Russia is strong enough to interfere and play its game

Could you give us a logical argument, maybe use some sources (or logic...)? Or will you just spout random statements that make no sense at all?
5hh.gg
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 14 2014 11:46 GMT
#8339
On April 14 2014 20:40 Mc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 20:09 PaleMan wrote:
It seems like US+EU who started Euromaidan decided to copy Serbia, but this time Russia is strong enough to interfere and play its game

Could you give us a logical argument, maybe use some sources (or logic...)? Or will you just spout random statements that make no sense at all?


I can give you an educated guess about the answer, looking at his track record

But he's not really worth the bother of responding to.

***

Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
April 14 2014 12:14 GMT
#8340


and at the same time:

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