EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 390
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On April 01 2014 15:47 lolfail9001 wrote: What this thread went down too: it's fairly obvious that best (for Russia) outcome in theoretical war is a draw, as i n everyone dies from nukes. Best outcome for Russia is no war, spend natural resources money on developing country, fix their shit up. Politics is not a zero-sum game: just because your enemies are unhappy doesn't mean you're happy. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On April 01 2014 15:47 lolfail9001 wrote: What this thread went down too: it's fairly obvious that best (for Russia) outcome in theoretical war is a draw, as i n everyone dies from nukes. No, that's not a draw; that's a mutual loss. The outcome in a major war is Russia loses, the question is how much do they lose, and how much does everyone else lose. I don't think Russia would use nukes unless it was actually invaded; it wouldn't use them just for the fight in crimea. Based on current history, i'm guessing a war would be fairly bloodless; as Russia would likely fall back after enough probing attacks to verify the west's willingness to fight (if it was genuine). They were quite careful in crimea to not overtly instigate things. They might support some more guerilla style fighting though. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
Finally they are not the bad guy. I find this very funny | ||
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
Ukraine's parliament on Tuesday approved a series of joint military exercises with NATO countries that would put US troops in direct proximity to Russian forces in the annexed Crimea peninsula. So much for taking it cool and trying to fix things. Are you crazy Ukraine? You really think, you should do something like that NOW? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:13 Geisterkarle wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-medvedev-visits-crimea-reports-075219445.html So much for taking it cool and trying to fix things. Are you crazy Ukraine? You really think, you should do something like that NOW? Smartest thing Ukraine and the West have done since Russia, you know, invaded the Ukraine. American and other NATO military jets - lots of them - should have been flying into Ukraine from day one. Russia would have backed down and would still have the Crimea but all this what will Putin do next crap wouldn't be happening. | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:13 Geisterkarle wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-medvedev-visits-crimea-reports-075219445.html So much for taking it cool and trying to fix things. Are you crazy Ukraine? You really think, you should do something like that NOW? Sea Breeze is nothing new, they've been doing it for years out of both Odessa and Crimea. But hey, get upset that they're asking for help after being invaded and having part of their country stolen from them by a bullying neighbor. Edit: I mean, from your own article: The exercises approved on Tuesday would see Ukraine conduct two sets of military exercises with the United States this summer -- Rapid Trident and Sea Breeze -- that have prompted disquiet in Russia in previous years. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On April 02 2014 01:16 Liman wrote: US should thank Russia. Finally they are not the bad guy. I find this very funny You find it funny because you don't seem to recall how the cold war only ended roughly 20 years ago. The US had a policy of containment and to prop of foreign powers. the US wasn't going to power down right away after the fall of the CCCP, perhaps they might have started in the early 00's if sept11 never occurred, granted their obligations in Germany, Japan and South Korea will probably mean they will always have bases there. Perhaps the idea of containment wouldn't had been an idea if the CCCP wasn't funding revolutions throughout the region and invading neighboring countries outside of the CCCP. The Cold war was a proxy war between the US/NATO and Russia/China. Why else would the US bother with Wars like Vietnam which was a French problem the US took over because of communist involvement. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
most of these bases long predated us-iran hostility most of the ones closer to russia are because of nazis and because russia you know kind of occupied half of europe for 45 years after the nazis were beat. so if someone wants to complain about it complain to stalin's ghost | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:13 Geisterkarle wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-pm-medvedev-visits-crimea-reports-075219445.html So much for taking it cool and trying to fix things. Are you crazy Ukraine? You really think, you should do something like that NOW? So what in your mind should they do? They do exactly the opposite of what Russia demands. Quite reasonable if you ask me, considering they just bit off a bit of their country. Weird though that you've missed that in the talks between Kerry and Lavrov, Lavrov demanded, for talks to be possible, ukraine has to be federalized and is not allowed to join the NATO. You know, the talks, where the ukraine wasn't even represented. It's quite obvious what the ukraine will do now, and that is not what Lavrov demanded. Mindblowing though, that there are people blaming the ukraine suddenly for a search to be protected. They're not white knights, even if they know (which they will) that this could be the beginning of the next cold war, who gives a shit? There's a huge army right next to their borders, an army of a country that already annexed a part of their country. Everything but looking for help would be unreasonable. They should've done that way earlier. Although, since NATO suspended the military cooperation with russia on tuesday, that will sting even more now. | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:25 DeepElemBlues wrote: Smartest thing Ukraine and the West have done since Russia, you know, invaded the Ukraine. American and other NATO military jets - lots of them - should have been flying into Ukraine from day one. Russia would have backed down and would still have the Crimea but all this what will Putin do next crap wouldn't be happening. In fact Ukraine kept it cool, when "self-defence of Crimea" suddenly dropped from the sky and this is the situation that it found itself after keeping it cool. I agree, they should have asked for help from day one, when those "unidentified" "paramiliary" forces appeared on Crimea. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:51 Roman666 wrote: In fact Ukraine kept it cool, when "self-defence of Crimea" suddenly dropped from the sky and this is the situation that it found itself after keeping it cool. I agree, they should have asked for help from day one, when those "unidentified" "paramiliary" forces appeared on Crimea. They did ask The EU/US was just to scared to do something. Or they believed Putin wasn't actually brazen enough to go for annexing Crimea. | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:53 Gorsameth wrote: They did ask The EU/US was just to scared to do something. Or they believed Putin wasn't actually brazen enough to go for annexing Crimea. Yes, you are right, I have completely forgotten they requested joint excersises and it was NATO which declined it. I think your second thought stood behind their reasoning back then, however they had to revise it now. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 02 2014 03:56 Roman666 wrote: Yes, you are right, I have completely forgotten they requested joint excersises and it was NATO which declined it. I think your second thought stood behind their reasoning back then, however they had to revise it now. While i kinda forgot that as well, another thought crossed my mind a second ago. It's good that the NATO didn't respond like they do now. The NATO is a pretty mighty instrument, a military alliance of unmatched strength i'd say. First of all, ukraine obviously is not part of the NATO, and the NATO can not (and should not!) be used as world police - second of all, well, .. Turkey (leaked "planning" of forging an attack and forcing the NATO into their problems). I'd rather have the NATO check 300 times before risking a war, than "reacting" to something immediately/drastically, that shouldn't be our problem. Not entirely sure if i can explain myself properly there, would be easier in german. -,- | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Not only is the Rail Baltic project magically in schedule again (previously there were doubts by Lithuania whether to pursue a rail system towards Russia instead), we're getting all manner of things we could only hope for previously: https://twitter.com/RaimoPoom/status/451248951543742464 | ||
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BeaSteR
Sweden328 Posts
On April 02 2014 17:43 Ghanburighan wrote: For the Baltics, the Russian aggression against Ukraine has brought early Christmas. Not only is the Rail Baltic project magically in schedule again (previously there were doubts by Lithuania whether to pursue a rail system towards Russia instead), we're getting all manner of things we could only hope for previously: https://twitter.com/RaimoPoom/status/451248951543742464 https://twitter.com/RaimoPoom/status/451248951543742464 Russia sure made defense and defense budgets being discussed a whole lot more among politicians in eastern Europe. In Sweden, our top-politicians looked down on people taking Russia's moves seriously just a few months ago. Now they are talking about raising the budgets again, maybe even bringing back military service - not just professional army. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6326 Posts
(Reuters) - Russia has massed all the forces it needs on Ukraine's border if it were to decide to carry out an "incursion" into the country and it could achieve its objective in three to five days, NATO's top military commander said on Wednesday. Calling the situation "incredibly concerning", NATO's supreme allied commander in Europe, U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove, said NATO had spotted signs of movement by a very small part of the Russian force overnight but had no indication that it was returning to barracks. Russia's seizure and annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region has caused the deepest crisis in East-West relations since the Cold War, leading the United States and Europe to impose sanctions on Moscow. They have said they will strengthen those sanctions if Russia moves beyond Crimea into east Ukraine. NATO military chiefs are concerned that the Russian force on the Ukrainian border, which they estimate stands at 40,000 soldiers, could pose a threat to eastern and southern Ukraine. "This is a very large and very capable and very ready force," Breedlove said in an interview with Reuters and The Wall Street Journal. The Russian force has aircraft and helicopter support as well as field hospitals and electronic warfare capabilities. "The entire suite that would be required to successfully have an incursion into Ukraine should the decision be made," Breedlove said. "We think it is ready to go and we think it could accomplish its objectives in between 3 and 5 days if directed to make the actions." He said Russia could have several potential objectives, including an incursion into southern Ukraine to establish a land corridor to Crimea, pushing beyond Crimea to Ukraine's Black Sea port of Odessa or even threatening to connect to Transdniestria, the mainly Russian-speaking, separatist region of Moldova that lies to the west of Ukraine. source | ||
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