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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:14 Ghanburighan wrote: Now that the dust has settled: edit: Fun fact, Vene is an abbreviation for Venezuela, here. But in Estonian, Russia is translated as Vene. There were 58 abstained countries. I still wonder what are you doing in UN if you don't vote and claim after it that you support one of sides. Why can't they just vote? :D | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:20 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: There were 58 abstained countries. I still wonder what are you doing in UN if you don't vote and claim after it that you support one of sides. Why can't they just vote? :D If you are someone like China, Putin is a nice friend to distract the West with but what happens if tomorrow "Taiwan Self Defense Forces" in US/Japanese army uniforms shows up and then Taiwan referendum votes to join Japan/USA? Not a nice precedent. Lots of those countries have situations like that. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:20 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: There were 58 abstained countries. I still wonder what are you doing in UN if you don't vote and claim after it that you support one of sides. Why can't they just vote? :D Voting goes on the record... China definitely will not send an official message that it supports acts such as what happened in Crimea, even if it would like to go against the US and Europe. Those abstentions show that Russia's actions are too far from normality even for its allies. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:26 Sub40APM wrote: If you are someone like China, Putin is a nice friend to distract the West with but what happens if tomorrow "Taiwan Self Defense Forces" in US/Japanese army uniforms shows up and then Taiwan referendum votes to join Japan/USA? Not a nice precedent. Lots of those countries have situations like that. Thing is that you can't call someone as "allies" or "enemies" considering this. On March 28 2014 05:37 Ghanburighan wrote: Voting goes on the record... China definitely will not send an official message that it supports acts such as what happened in Crimea, even if it would like to go against the US and Europe. Those abstentions show that Russia's actions are too far from normality even for its allies. And our ambassador said that big Western players pressured a lot of lesser countries hard to vote for resolution. Anyway, sad thing is that noone cares about those resolutions. | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Thing is that you can't call someone as "allies" or "enemies" considering this. And our ambassador said that big Western players pressured a lot of lesser countries hard to vote for resolution. Anyway, sad thing is that noone cares about those resolutions. Some just don't care about what happens there and want to maintain their current relations with both Russia and the West like a bunch of fiscal paradises, a bunch of oil exporters and some heavily corrupted or unstable countries. They don't want to be pointed at and just want to be left alone. | ||
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likeasu
Russian Federation88 Posts
On March 27 2014 22:19 m4ini wrote: I guess it makes people sleep better, pointing at other countries mistakes. Fun part is, in civilized countries you learn in kindergarden already that just because someone else does something, doesn't make it right if you do it as well. 1. It was a joke. (If you didnt undertand) 2. Count please victims by "democratic" NATO in Yugoslavia (about 5000 soldiers and 1700 civilians were killed. I was using Wikipedia), Afganistan (3600 civilians were killed) and by "demonic" Russia in Crimie (0!!!!). | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Thing is that you can't call someone as "allies" or "enemies" considering this. And our ambassador said that big Western players pressured a lot of lesser countries hard to vote for resolution. Anyway, sad thing is that noone cares about those resolutions. Actually, diplomatically, these matter a ton. And don't think Russia didn't pull out all the stops to get countries to vote and abstain as well. Armenia and Belarus were opposed to the Crimean action only a few weeks ago... | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:26 Sub40APM wrote: If you are someone like China, Putin is a nice friend to distract the West with but what happens if tomorrow "Taiwan Self Defense Forces" in US/Japanese army uniforms shows up and then Taiwan referendum votes to join Japan/USA? Not a nice precedent. Lots of those countries have situations like that. This is somewhat an inadequate analogy because Taiwan is already extremely closely aligned with the US and they are entirely independent of China. Crimea was Ukrainian territory and wasn't practically in Russia's back pocket. Far from it really. Also, no one in the Far East likes Japan. :S Otherwise, I agree, we would have an interesting scenario to say the least if something like that were to happen. It would be a matter of asking what we in the US do in response. I don't know what we'd do. Russia and China have good relations regardless though, and in the sense of old European alliances, where the involved countries were mostly on par. Not like USA and our relations with countries, where we're just a giant wolf and them a bunch of toy poodles :S | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
2. Count please victims by "democratic" NATO in Yugoslavia (+Irac +Afganistan) and by "demonic" Russia in Crimie. How many died in afghanistan 79-89, when russia was "fighting an honorful war against terror" (small hint, "bit" more than all of those together). How many would've died a couple of weeks ago if the ukrainian soldiers would actually have fought back, as they had every right to? The only reason russia didn't produce another bloodbath was ukrainian soldiers being incredibly patient. (edit: you seem to have no idea what havoc artillery can produce - you know, the artillery russia shipped over there, and is not known as a precision instrument?) And, again. Nobody in this thread needs to count for how many deaths america is responsible. That happens more than enough in the respective threads, me being one of them. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On March 28 2014 06:12 m4ini wrote: How many died in afghanistan 79-89, when russia was "fighting an honorful war against terror"? How many would've died a couple of weeks ago if the ukrainian soldiers would actually have fought back, as they had every right to? The only reason russia didn't produce another bloodbath was ukrainian soldiers being incredibly patient. And, again. Nobody in this thread needs to count for how many deaths america is responsible. That happens more than enough in the respective threads, me being one of them. Jesus, why do people keep bringing up US and NATO? This thread isn't about that. Everyone is well aware of what the US has done. Everyone is well-aware that Ukraine is a contention of Russian and US/EU political interests, ie. Russia does not care about imaginary Nazis and US doesn't care about Ukraine's well-being. It's a rope in a tug-of-war. IMO, there is no need to continually bring up what America has done, especially since almost everyone acknowledges it. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 28 2014 06:17 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Jesus, why do people keep bringing up US and NATO? This thread isn't about that. Everyone is well aware of it. Everyone is well-aware that Ukraine is a contention of Russian and US/EU political interests, ie. Russia does not care about imaginary Nazis and US doesn't care about Ukraine's well-being. It's a rope in a tug-of-war. IMO, there is no need to continually bring up how much America has wrecked. Why exactly are you quoting me? | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
Slight frustration that any thread on TL that has 0% to do with the US, ends up being about the US. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 28 2014 06:24 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Slight frustration that any thread on TL that has 0% to do with the US, ends up being about the US. Which is what i was saying, clearly. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Meanwhile Right Sector went ham on Yarosh, called him as enemy. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:59 Ghanburighan wrote: Actually, diplomatically, these matter a ton. And don't think Russia didn't pull out all the stops to get countries to vote and abstain as well. Armenia and Belarus were opposed to the Crimean action only a few weeks ago... Ah yes! Quite the group: The communistic-leaning obligate US-contrarians in SM Am. Nicaragua, Bolivia, Venezuela and Cuba. The left-leaning leaders in those countries vote against USA for domestic populistic reasons. The sphere countries Belarus (100 % depending on Russia for trade and other support) and Syria (for obvious reasons). Some from the pariahs of the earth assembly in North Korea and Zimbabwe, most likely because they are too isolated from EU/US trade to risk worsening trade relations with Russia (EU countries have some missions in Eritreas extremely nasty al-shabab supporting regime and Turkmenistan is improving relations after Niyazovs dictatorial freak-show. Not that those places are significantly better than the parias...). Only other countries to support Russia are Armenia and Sudan I am surprised by the lack of Kazakhstan on that list, though I do not doubt Armenia has had a crisis of consience on this one. I think Russia has had more luck in getting countries to abstain since most inherently dislike the idea of their provinces being able to change nationality just like that. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 28 2014 05:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Thing is that you can't call someone as "allies" or "enemies" considering this. And our ambassador said that big Western players pressured a lot of lesser countries hard to vote for resolution. Anyway, sad thing is that noone cares about those resolutions. I'm afraid that the statements of Russian officials under Putin's regime really don't mean much here. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Yeah, a very predictable picture. I guess I'm surprised that Argentina and Egypt abstained from a yes vote, but that might be stretching it... Egypt might not even have sufficient capacity in its foreign office atm to keep track of these issues. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On March 28 2014 01:33 DeepElemBlues wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio That ruling is still operative. I don't know what planet you live on but apparently it is one where you can mock people based on your own ignorance. Mostly false. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_restraint#Prior_restraint_in_the_United_States The idea that only rich and powerful people in the US can exercise free speech is absurd. Just as an example, how long were Occupy camps allowed to illegally exist? Hardly a gathering of the rich and powerful despite many rich and powerful people sympathizing with them and getting involved. For months and months and months they were allowed to shit up public parks and the other places they were camping, harass and intimidate local businesses and residents, have their drum circles and mic checks. The idea that if you are reporting on "corporate abuse" you are "shit out of luck" is absurd. Just as an example, the movie Gasland is a piece of shit full of half-truths, distortions, deceptions, and outright lies, but it was still produced and distributed free of restriction. How many articles about BP oil spill were not allowed to be published? How many journalists were harassed by the government for publishing articles about that? Enron? Any of the thousands of pieces of opinion and "reporting" published daily in newspapers and magazines and on blogs on message boards on Twitter, like your quite frankly libelous link, regarding the Koch brothers? The idea that if you are a blogger you do not have free speech protections in the US is absurd. Dick Durbin's numerous idiotic comments on the subject aside, judges including at the federal level have ruled that bloggers have the same free speech protections as everyone else. http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/17/local/la-me-ln-blogger-1st-amendment-20140117 Now if you're a journalist reporting on the Obama Administration it is a different story. So you're only mostly ignorant and only mostly saying things that are stupidly untrue. It is a disgrace the way the Obama Administration has acted towards journalists. But again, no prior restraint attempts. Not even the Obama Administration has tried to force articles to not be published. Here's a quick list of stories the government desperately did not want reported over the last ten years I remember that it did not stop from being published: 2006 Warrantless eavesdropping (NYT) 2006 Terrorist Financing Tracking Program (NYT) 2010 Multiple stories resulting from Bradley Manning leaks (NYT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, eventually almost every publication in the world concerned with politics and law) 2012-present Multiple stories resulting from Edward Snowden leaks (NYT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, eventually almost every publication in the world concerned with politics and law) Basically if you think free speech is failing in the US then you should want the Obama Administration out of power. Now then I hope you two have been lifted somewhat out of your lamentable ignorance caused by your preconceptions and arrogance. cherry picking anectodal evidence doesn't hold up to comprehensive study, sry. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
On March 27 2014 07:55 Agathon wrote: Yes it's an interesting point. I heard a man on a french tv show yesterday, an historian and political expert about eastern Europe with the same kind of point of view. He said that Putin's move on Crimea had a payback effect. He got Crimea and its harbors easily which is good for him (no NATO bases near Russia and full control of black sea), but he lost all the Urkaine in the same time by giving to Ukrainian people a good reason to unify against a common opponent : Russia and himself, breaking his own plan to keep a friendly slavic neiborhood with Bellarus + Ukraine. Also, breaking Crimea out of Ukraine means a loss of many pro-Russian votes. However, Russia may be counting on the fact that, given enough time, they will have the upper-hand with respect to interference in the Ukrainian political process. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On March 28 2014 11:14 nunez wrote: cherry picking anectodal evidence doesn't hold up to comprehensive study, sry. Dismissing people sometimes is necessary I get that, but when you do it by ad-hominem, and you're even wrong about it; that's kinda scummy. His evidence is hardly "anectodal" when he provides links to credible sources which are not authored by himself. | ||
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