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But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.
Doesn't really matter anyway, obviously.
About the UK stuff: i'm in the UK right now, and while there is alot of "hate" towards the EU, educated people over here pretty much know what they would lose. The people that want to leave are the same people that didn't want to get out of india, because "look at what the great british empire has become". Daily-Mail-Readers, as i like to call them.
And i still hold my position that considering the fact that invasion was real but there were no victims, we can call it peaceful.
Sorry, but bullshit. People with guns are not peaceful. In fact, it was "victimless" (which it wasn't btw) because the ukrainians decided not to fire on the occupiers. Which they'd have the right to. They didn't, because russias army obviously would overwhelm them in an instant, but again, that doesn't make it peaceful.
That makes ukrainian soldiers smart, not the invasion peaceful.
PS: Minefields #peaceful, heard it here first.
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On March 18 2014 00:45 Gamlet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 00:20 mdb wrote:On March 18 2014 00:18 Gamlet wrote:On March 17 2014 23:49 Fjodorov wrote:On March 17 2014 23:41 Gamlet wrote:
I am from Kiev.And i want to be part of Russia. Whats stopping you? Are you not welcome in Russia? Or wait, lets have every minority in every country create independent countries or join other countries. I love Kiev.And i doesnt want live in another city.Its stoping me.Kiev its mother of russian cities. I think independence no sense for Ukraine.We must be part of Russia.My hope its Great Slavian Union. Which countries do you thnik should be part of the Great Slavian Union? All slavian countries.Bulgaria its too slavian coutry.But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.But Ukraine-Russia-Belarus union its first step.
So basicly u don't mind to live in a big country full of imperialism? Why don't u wanna realise that it's gonna be "a modern feodalism", which is oudated long time ago and it's not even close to effective.
The very first things u should look at is - Average life level, and corruption level in a country, but do to look at ethnic and common past as a real reason of union. And what do we see? Russia, Ukraine and Belarus got extreamly high level of corruption and low life level even in comparison to Poland, not metioning Germany...Belarus even doesn't have political opposition in fact, everyone who declares themselves as opposition, suddenly might find themselves in prison. Yes, this coountry has everything stable, but low, is it real goal to live in?
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DeepElemblues, we all know that the highest bid in america decides whats the most important points on the political agenda are gonna be. The parties will just frame it differently, so the public opinion, decisions and legislation can be rolled out. This practise also happens in europe, its called capitalism and it creates jobs and money. Its democracy at its finest (its flawed like any other system). Nothing bad about that, but it does mean political agendas or decisions can be influenced by certain rich lobbygroups like the weaponmanufacturers. A nice example is the war in Irak where the US eventually got alot of prosporous oilcontracts and the nuclear weapons were never found, haha Propagnda at its finest. I am sorry but as an european i dont trust any news comming from western sources about ukraine because its all biased as hell.
Best sources should be Ukrainian sources.
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On March 17 2014 07:07 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:what do your posts accomplish do you think? self-satisfaction probably right? whatever floats your boat imo, it's good imagery. I was talking about you calling people vampires, not everything you post. Escalation! What does calling people vampires in a politico-economic context accomplish? It has a very bad and ugly history and it seems careless to me. The underlying thesis is also flawed - America and Europe (and Japan/SK) dominate the global economy, the global economy is allegedly a vampire feeding system for these rich vampire countries, yet global poverty in the last 20 years was halved and for most of the planet's poor other progress in the material quality of their lives was achieved to varying, sometimes great, degrees. How does that circle get squared? This vampire system that runs the world is sucking the life out of countries while those countries are also - somehow - seeing poverty fall and life expectancy, access to education, clean food and water, decent housing, etc. increase. see, your posts are getting more enjoyable to read already. it's hard to be precise when it comes to shady dealings and covert business employed by rich to keep extorting poor, hence a mysterious, evil thing like vampire is fitting. Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 06:48 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 06:39 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 06:09 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 06:00 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 05:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 02:53 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Which one of your sources proves that the US has built up the Right Sector using 5 billion dollars, I might need a bit more hand holding than a link showing that the US spends money on foreign aid -- Canada does too, where are their fascists coups ? -- and the right sector. I'd also like some evidence showing that the national endowment for democracy's programs to strengthen things like rule of law or freedom of expression translated into fascist coups, perhaps one that doesnt make unsubstantiated claim that the NED caused the coup or that relies on who the founders of the NED were to prove NED is forever tainted by evil.
NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general). you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Calling people vampires has a long and distinguished history with a certain set of people, nunez is just unconsciously carrying on a fine blood-soaked tradition dating back over a thousand years. The particular one he's consciously carrying on is over a hundred years old and was and is one of the favorite insults of a certain globally failed and murderous ideology. How calling people vampires accomplishes anything but self-satisfaction at being "edgy" is a mystery, but that is the point isn't it. what do your posts accomplish do you think? self-satisfaction maybe? On March 17 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 02:53 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Which one of your sources proves that the US has built up the Right Sector using 5 billion dollars, I might need a bit more hand holding than a link showing that the US spends money on foreign aid -- Canada does too, where are their fascists coups ? -- and the right sector. I'd also like some evidence showing that the national endowment for democracy's programs to strengthen things like rule of law or freedom of expression translated into fascist coups, perhaps one that doesnt make unsubstantiated claim that the NED caused the coup or that relies on who the founders of the NED were to prove NED is forever tainted by evil.
NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general). you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Did you even read your source or did it come up through a quick google search? Ill put it below the fold if you care, but the actual thing you cite paints a pretty contradictory picture, one that stands in contrast to the assured and unsubstantiated tone of the original article you posted as evidence that NED was a vehicle through which 5 billion dollars was funneled to the right sector by America + Show Spoiler +Even though NED grant money appears to have been appropriately awarded to countries based on their
need, the grant money did not have a significant impact on political and economic freedom. This calls into question the wisdom of using the U.S. government’s scarce resources to promote democracy and economic freedom – not only through NED, but in any similar manner. The thesis is against all American foreign aid. Officially, the U.S. government was neutral about the Chilean plebiscite, but it
recognized that the plebiscite was an opportunity for Chile to take a large step toward
democracy. Seizing the moment, the U.S. became involved in Chile through NED. From
its own funds, NED sent $600,000 to opposition groups in Chile. Many of these groups
were reluctant to accept the money because they were uncomfortable using foreign
money to influence Chile’s domestic politics. However, most groups did eventually
accept the money because they recognized that their chances of winning without it were
unlikely (Christian 15 June 1988, A1). Congress later gave NED another $1 million to
distribute in Chile. Pinochet’s government made U.S. support for its opposition a central
campaign issue, but was unable to win the plebiscite (Christian 15 June 1988, A14).
NED supports pro-Democracy, anti-Military government forces in Chile -- you know, the military dictatorship they helped to create in the first place --- In reaction to the Clinton administration’s request, the House voted to eliminate
all funding for NED by a vote of 243-181 (Corn 1993b, 57; Doherty 1993, 1672).
NED’s defeat in the House was bipartisan – two-thirds of Republicans and a slight
36
majority of Democrats voted for its elimination NED appears not to be a tool the government actual wants... Critics have described NED as a “political sacred cow” (Corn 1997, 27), valued
as a source of pork-barrel projects and lavish political junkets abroad for Washington’s
elites (Carothers 1994, 123; Corn 1992, 648). These elites include high-level
“Republican and Democratic party activists, conservative trade unionists, and free
marketeers” who use the organization to further their own agendas (Corn 1993b, 57).
Critics further allege that NED provides its spoils systematically in an attempt to gain
friends that can help it politically (Samuels 1995, 53). In essence, the elites use NED for
generous perks, and the organization uses the elites for political gain and protection. This
type of “inside-the-beltway political logrolling,” according to critics, makes it the type of
program that needs to be abolished (Conry 1994, 16). or it turns out NED is some sort of corruption mechanism inside DC without any actual foreign interests at all Look at his top recipients, Ukraine received less money than Poland, Russia and China and slightly more than Cuba and Romania i think you are confused. nobody is saying 5 billion dollars was funelled through NED, but feel free to make the case that the NED's spending in ukraine is not included in that figure, Well his original claim was that 5 billion was spent by the US to create neo-nazis, so I am still waiting for support for that argument.
the paper corroborates both the robert parry article(~ cold war relic fund that generally supports a neocon agenda often at cross-purposes with the Obama administration’s foreign policy)
All it corroborates from the Parry article was that its inception the NED was filled with Reagen types. and xM(Z's claim that ukraine's right are able to throw their weight around because of it (the right of ukraine aligns with this agenda). There is 0 support in the paper you quoted for this claim. All it shows is that Ukraine receives money from NED. Neither the right sector nor Svoboda are mentioned in the paper, and neither were relevant until the late 2000s, Your paper covers a period between 1990 and 1999 when Ukraine was dominated by Kuchma, an authoritarian pragmatist who at best was neutral if not outright Russian leaning. Finally, the paper you cited comes to the conclusion that this help is mostly useless and a waste of American tax payers money and all foreign aid that look to build democratic institutions should be cut. On March 17 2014 03:28 xM(Z wrote:
US because it was their $5billions that made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of Yanukovych here's the part you bolded that sparked this. yup, that's claiming that 5 billion was spent by the us to create neo-nazis. guess you still gotta keep waiting for 'proof' (gl getting your hands on cia's nazi-creation budget xmz). Uh ya.
and it corroborates perry's points about it being is a vehicle for neolibs agenda, not the us govt's (facilitating us coorp profit is what they're aiming for).
The final assessment of thesis that you linked is that NED doesnt work and is a waste of tax payers money. For it to support the original article you linked claiming that a neo-con coup happened in Ukraine you would have to explain why for -- the duration of the paper you cited 1990 - 99 -- the neocons not only failed to accomplish anything but saw the rise of an authoritarian, anti-reformist president who dominated politics pretty totally. Then youd have to explain how the neocons then managed -- after what seems like total incompetence in their quest for whatever it is that their nefarious goals are -- they suddenly succeed so spectacularly and so rapidly. ok, so where in that bolded part does it say that the us spent 5 B to create neo-nazis? is it before or after the part where it says "their 5 billions made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of yanu"? nope, it just needs to show that NED is a vehicle for various agendas besides that of the us govt to support it. and it does.
Your proof is a dissertation paper by a graduate student trying to get his degree. That is pathetic.
And in any case, your chain of evidence is missing a link which is also pathetic. Even if we accept this paper there is zero proof offered that the NED funded Right Sector or Svoboda or that NED money was the reason Maidan protests succeeded. It's just "well the NED did this over there so we can just assume it did what I'm claiming here" and "it's all so murky of course we can't totally prove it but it's good enough to show that that NED could do what I'm claiming."
Thank God people like nunez aren't in charge of trying to put people in jail, we'd have innocent people left and right arrested and put on trial on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence. No wait not even circumstantial evidence - simple suspicion based on alleged past behavior. No actual evidence necessary.
Nope, sorry, it doesn't just need to show that NED is a vehicle for various agendas besides that of the US government. It needs to show actual evidence that what you claim happened actually happened. Unfortunately just because you really really want it to be enough it doesn't take away the anti-intellectual and insulting to the intelligence of everyone else argument that "I don't need direct or even circumstantial evidence, I just need this college kid's paper that says the NED did this elsewhere in the past, that's good enough." That's a joke.
Calling people vampires is for Nazis, general anti-semites, and Marxists who can't get over the fact that the revolution passed them by and then failed. All three are sad occupants of the ash heap of history.
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On March 18 2014 00:45 Gamlet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 00:20 mdb wrote:On March 18 2014 00:18 Gamlet wrote:On March 17 2014 23:49 Fjodorov wrote:On March 17 2014 23:41 Gamlet wrote:
I am from Kiev.And i want to be part of Russia. Whats stopping you? Are you not welcome in Russia? Or wait, lets have every minority in every country create independent countries or join other countries. I love Kiev.And i doesnt want live in another city.Its stoping me.Kiev its mother of russian cities. I think independence no sense for Ukraine.We must be part of Russia.My hope its Great Slavian Union. Which countries do you thnik should be part of the Great Slavian Union? All slavian countries.Bulgaria its too slavian coutry.But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.But Ukraine-Russia-Belarus union its first step.
Will russia be leader of that? Or do all those countries have same rights?
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On March 18 2014 01:03 govie wrote:DeepElemblues, we all know that the highest bid in america decides whats the most important points on the political agenda are gonna be. The parties will just frame it differently, so the public opinion, decisions and legislation can be rolled out. This practise also happens in europe, its called capitalism and it creates jobs and money. Its democracy at its finest (its flawed like any other system). Nothing bad about that, but it does mean political agendas or decisions can be influenced by certain rich lobbygroups like the weaponmanufacturers. A nice example is the war in Irak where the US eventually got alot of prosporous oilcontracts and the nuclear weapons were never found, haha Propagnda at its finest. I am sorry but as an european i dont trust any news comming from western sources about ukraine because its all biased as hell. Best sources should be Ukrainian sources.
No, we don't all know that that lazy and ignorant opinion is true.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/world/middleeast/china-reaps-biggest-benefits-of-iraq-oil-boom.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948787,00.html
Oops guess the US didn't eventually get a lot of prosperous oil contracts, ignoramuses spouting ignorant bullshit about what happened gets so tiresome. Propaganda at its finest indeed, it's 3 years after US troops left Iraq and people like you still believe the most pathetic and childish of lies about it. A nice example is people believing that US got a lot of prosperous oil contracts in Iraq when the US really got a pittance.
http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com/2011/11/foreign-oil-companies-operating-in-iraq.html
Only two of those companies there are American companies Exxon-Mobil and Occidental Petroleum. Rest are split between Iraqi companies, European companies and Asian companies.
It always amazes me how much people base their opinions off ignorant lying shit like oh the US invaded Iraq and took its oil never happened sorry. US invaded Iraq and China took Iraq's oil, with Iraqi permission, by contract. You have to go up to Kurdistan (Kurds love USA for invading, Iraqi Kurdistan probably most pro-USA place on earth outside of the US itself) to find American companies getting a significant share of oil contracts.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c51d29fc-85c4-11e2-9ee3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2wEnZwxqC
It is an ironic outcome. When US troops invaded Iraq 10 years ago, conspiracy theorists predicted that American oil companies would immediately seize control of the country’s vast oilfields. “People say that the Iraq war was fought over oil,” says Robin Mills of Dubai-based Manaar Energy Consulting. “But American companies are now almost absent from the Iraqi upstream scene.”
“It has secured a tremendous amount of investment and international help to develop its energy sector while giving away very little,” says PFC Energy’s Mr Alkadiri. “The Iraqis are well and truly in control of their own oil industry.”
But hey keep on living in that fantasy world where you don't trust Western media because it's biased as hell, maybe there's a reason you believe things that aren't true (hint hint). Doubtful that anything would convince you otherwise than what you already believe, Iraq oil minister could post a video detailing lack of American oil company contracts in Iraq and you'd probably still believe that the US invaded just to get dat oil and got a bunch of it.
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On March 18 2014 01:08 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 00:45 Gamlet wrote:On March 18 2014 00:20 mdb wrote:On March 18 2014 00:18 Gamlet wrote:On March 17 2014 23:49 Fjodorov wrote:On March 17 2014 23:41 Gamlet wrote:
I am from Kiev.And i want to be part of Russia. Whats stopping you? Are you not welcome in Russia? Or wait, lets have every minority in every country create independent countries or join other countries. I love Kiev.And i doesnt want live in another city.Its stoping me.Kiev its mother of russian cities. I think independence no sense for Ukraine.We must be part of Russia.My hope its Great Slavian Union. Which countries do you thnik should be part of the Great Slavian Union? All slavian countries.Bulgaria its too slavian coutry.But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.But Ukraine-Russia-Belarus union its first step. Will russia be leader of that? Or do all those countries have same rights?
The stupidest thing about this whole idea is that it failed horribly not even 30 years ago. That's barely history. And now some people on the internet would be happy to see the Soviet Union reloaded. 
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On March 18 2014 01:18 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:08 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 18 2014 00:45 Gamlet wrote:On March 18 2014 00:20 mdb wrote:On March 18 2014 00:18 Gamlet wrote:On March 17 2014 23:49 Fjodorov wrote:On March 17 2014 23:41 Gamlet wrote:
I am from Kiev.And i want to be part of Russia. Whats stopping you? Are you not welcome in Russia? Or wait, lets have every minority in every country create independent countries or join other countries. I love Kiev.And i doesnt want live in another city.Its stoping me.Kiev its mother of russian cities. I think independence no sense for Ukraine.We must be part of Russia.My hope its Great Slavian Union. Which countries do you thnik should be part of the Great Slavian Union? All slavian countries.Bulgaria its too slavian coutry.But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.But Ukraine-Russia-Belarus union its first step. Will russia be leader of that? Or do all those countries have same rights? The stupidest thing about this whole idea is that it failed horribly not even 30 years ago. That's barely history. And now some people on the internet would be happy to see the Soviet Union reloaded.
History repeats itself. A generation have become old enough to call them selfs men but they are young enough that they havent lived or experienced what they talk about. They want a war of their own and their own utopia.
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On March 18 2014 01:23 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:18 Nyxisto wrote:On March 18 2014 01:08 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On March 18 2014 00:45 Gamlet wrote:On March 18 2014 00:20 mdb wrote:On March 18 2014 00:18 Gamlet wrote:On March 17 2014 23:49 Fjodorov wrote:On March 17 2014 23:41 Gamlet wrote:
I am from Kiev.And i want to be part of Russia. Whats stopping you? Are you not welcome in Russia? Or wait, lets have every minority in every country create independent countries or join other countries. I love Kiev.And i doesnt want live in another city.Its stoping me.Kiev its mother of russian cities. I think independence no sense for Ukraine.We must be part of Russia.My hope its Great Slavian Union. Which countries do you thnik should be part of the Great Slavian Union? All slavian countries.Bulgaria its too slavian coutry.But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.But Ukraine-Russia-Belarus union its first step. Will russia be leader of that? Or do all those countries have same rights? The stupidest thing about this whole idea is that it failed horribly not even 30 years ago. That's barely history. And now some people on the internet would be happy to see the Soviet Union reloaded. History repeats itself. A generation have become old enough to call them selfs men but they are young enough that they havent lived or experienced what they talk about. They want a war of their own and their own utopia.
There are also old people, the `knocking people' and the communist party functionaries, who remember getting a lot for something they perceived to be very little (just their souls), who now resent living in a free society and long to get all their privileges back.
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Russian Federation117 Posts
Just as expected the US sanctions hit some nobodies. The correct persons to hit would have beem Miller, Sechin and Ivanov, Timchenko, Kovalchyuk and Abramovich including family member. THAT would be the sanctions.
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Lol, thats capitalism at its finest.
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What happens next? Crimea voted to join Russia; now does Russia have to vote to accept Crimea?
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On March 18 2014 01:04 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 07:07 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 06:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:what do your posts accomplish do you think? self-satisfaction probably right? whatever floats your boat imo, it's good imagery. I was talking about you calling people vampires, not everything you post. Escalation! What does calling people vampires in a politico-economic context accomplish? It has a very bad and ugly history and it seems careless to me. The underlying thesis is also flawed - America and Europe (and Japan/SK) dominate the global economy, the global economy is allegedly a vampire feeding system for these rich vampire countries, yet global poverty in the last 20 years was halved and for most of the planet's poor other progress in the material quality of their lives was achieved to varying, sometimes great, degrees. How does that circle get squared? This vampire system that runs the world is sucking the life out of countries while those countries are also - somehow - seeing poverty fall and life expectancy, access to education, clean food and water, decent housing, etc. increase. see, your posts are getting more enjoyable to read already. it's hard to be precise when it comes to shady dealings and covert business employed by rich to keep extorting poor, hence a mysterious, evil thing like vampire is fitting. On March 17 2014 06:48 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 06:39 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 06:09 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 06:00 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 05:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:
[quote]
NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general).
you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Calling people vampires has a long and distinguished history with a certain set of people, nunez is just unconsciously carrying on a fine blood-soaked tradition dating back over a thousand years. The particular one he's consciously carrying on is over a hundred years old and was and is one of the favorite insults of a certain globally failed and murderous ideology. How calling people vampires accomplishes anything but self-satisfaction at being "edgy" is a mystery, but that is the point isn't it. what do your posts accomplish do you think? self-satisfaction maybe? On March 17 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:
[quote]
NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general).
you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Did you even read your source or did it come up through a quick google search? Ill put it below the fold if you care, but the actual thing you cite paints a pretty contradictory picture, one that stands in contrast to the assured and unsubstantiated tone of the original article you posted as evidence that NED was a vehicle through which 5 billion dollars was funneled to the right sector by America + Show Spoiler +Even though NED grant money appears to have been appropriately awarded to countries based on their
need, the grant money did not have a significant impact on political and economic freedom. This calls into question the wisdom of using the U.S. government’s scarce resources to promote democracy and economic freedom – not only through NED, but in any similar manner. The thesis is against all American foreign aid. Officially, the U.S. government was neutral about the Chilean plebiscite, but it
recognized that the plebiscite was an opportunity for Chile to take a large step toward
democracy. Seizing the moment, the U.S. became involved in Chile through NED. From
its own funds, NED sent $600,000 to opposition groups in Chile. Many of these groups
were reluctant to accept the money because they were uncomfortable using foreign
money to influence Chile’s domestic politics. However, most groups did eventually
accept the money because they recognized that their chances of winning without it were
unlikely (Christian 15 June 1988, A1). Congress later gave NED another $1 million to
distribute in Chile. Pinochet’s government made U.S. support for its opposition a central
campaign issue, but was unable to win the plebiscite (Christian 15 June 1988, A14).
NED supports pro-Democracy, anti-Military government forces in Chile -- you know, the military dictatorship they helped to create in the first place --- In reaction to the Clinton administration’s request, the House voted to eliminate
all funding for NED by a vote of 243-181 (Corn 1993b, 57; Doherty 1993, 1672).
NED’s defeat in the House was bipartisan – two-thirds of Republicans and a slight
36
majority of Democrats voted for its elimination NED appears not to be a tool the government actual wants... Critics have described NED as a “political sacred cow” (Corn 1997, 27), valued
as a source of pork-barrel projects and lavish political junkets abroad for Washington’s
elites (Carothers 1994, 123; Corn 1992, 648). These elites include high-level
“Republican and Democratic party activists, conservative trade unionists, and free
marketeers” who use the organization to further their own agendas (Corn 1993b, 57).
Critics further allege that NED provides its spoils systematically in an attempt to gain
friends that can help it politically (Samuels 1995, 53). In essence, the elites use NED for
generous perks, and the organization uses the elites for political gain and protection. This
type of “inside-the-beltway political logrolling,” according to critics, makes it the type of
program that needs to be abolished (Conry 1994, 16). or it turns out NED is some sort of corruption mechanism inside DC without any actual foreign interests at all Look at his top recipients, Ukraine received less money than Poland, Russia and China and slightly more than Cuba and Romania i think you are confused. nobody is saying 5 billion dollars was funelled through NED, but feel free to make the case that the NED's spending in ukraine is not included in that figure, Well his original claim was that 5 billion was spent by the US to create neo-nazis, so I am still waiting for support for that argument.
the paper corroborates both the robert parry article(~ cold war relic fund that generally supports a neocon agenda often at cross-purposes with the Obama administration’s foreign policy)
All it corroborates from the Parry article was that its inception the NED was filled with Reagen types. and xM(Z's claim that ukraine's right are able to throw their weight around because of it (the right of ukraine aligns with this agenda). There is 0 support in the paper you quoted for this claim. All it shows is that Ukraine receives money from NED. Neither the right sector nor Svoboda are mentioned in the paper, and neither were relevant until the late 2000s, Your paper covers a period between 1990 and 1999 when Ukraine was dominated by Kuchma, an authoritarian pragmatist who at best was neutral if not outright Russian leaning. Finally, the paper you cited comes to the conclusion that this help is mostly useless and a waste of American tax payers money and all foreign aid that look to build democratic institutions should be cut. On March 17 2014 03:28 xM(Z wrote:
US because it was their $5billions that made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of Yanukovych here's the part you bolded that sparked this. yup, that's claiming that 5 billion was spent by the us to create neo-nazis. guess you still gotta keep waiting for 'proof' (gl getting your hands on cia's nazi-creation budget xmz). Uh ya.
and it corroborates perry's points about it being is a vehicle for neolibs agenda, not the us govt's (facilitating us coorp profit is what they're aiming for).
The final assessment of thesis that you linked is that NED doesnt work and is a waste of tax payers money. For it to support the original article you linked claiming that a neo-con coup happened in Ukraine you would have to explain why for -- the duration of the paper you cited 1990 - 99 -- the neocons not only failed to accomplish anything but saw the rise of an authoritarian, anti-reformist president who dominated politics pretty totally. Then youd have to explain how the neocons then managed -- after what seems like total incompetence in their quest for whatever it is that their nefarious goals are -- they suddenly succeed so spectacularly and so rapidly. ok, so where in that bolded part does it say that the us spent 5 B to create neo-nazis? is it before or after the part where it says "their 5 billions made the right sector of ukraine politics able to stage the ousting of yanu"? nope, it just needs to show that NED is a vehicle for various agendas besides that of the us govt to support it. and it does. Your proof is a dissertation paper by a graduate student trying to get his degree. That is pathetic. And in any case, your chain of evidence is missing a link which is also pathetic. Even if we accept this paper there is zero proof offered that the NED funded Right Sector or Svoboda or that NED money was the reason Maidan protests succeeded. It's just "well the NED did this over there so we can just assume it did what I'm claiming here" and "it's all so murky of course we can't totally prove it but it's good enough to show that that NED could do what I'm claiming." Thank God people like nunez aren't in charge of trying to put people in jail, we'd have innocent people left and right arrested and put on trial on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence. No wait not even circumstantial evidence - simple suspicion based on alleged past behavior. No actual evidence necessary. Nope, sorry, it doesn't just need to show that NED is a vehicle for various agendas besides that of the US government. It needs to show actual evidence that what you claim happened actually happened. Unfortunately just because you really really want it to be enough it doesn't take away the anti-intellectual and insulting to the intelligence of everyone else argument that "I don't need direct or even circumstantial evidence, I just need this college kid's paper that says the NED did this elsewhere in the past, that's good enough." That's a joke. Calling people vampires is for Nazis, general anti-semites, and Marxists who can't get over the fact that the revolution passed them by. All three are sad occupants of the ash heap of history.
us funelling 5 billion dollars into shaping politics in ukraine has not had any effect on the success of the maidan-movement nor did it affect the orange revolution in the slightest. if you want to make this claim you will have produce proof in the form of statistical information from falsifiable experiment done in a us-government approved lab, tracing money from deb's personal tax returns into the hands of ukranian fascists.
NED's politic-meddling funding does not in (f.ex backing yatsenuk foundation, same guy nuland marked for prime ministry), any way, shape or form end up empowering the far-right, now with people in governement in ukraine (yatsenuk now prime minister in said government).
never seen someone so upset over a vampire-allegory, that's funny.
you really demolished that paper. solid arguments and everything.
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On March 18 2014 00:45 Gamlet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 00:20 mdb wrote:On March 18 2014 00:18 Gamlet wrote:On March 17 2014 23:49 Fjodorov wrote:On March 17 2014 23:41 Gamlet wrote:
I am from Kiev.And i want to be part of Russia. Whats stopping you? Are you not welcome in Russia? Or wait, lets have every minority in every country create independent countries or join other countries. I love Kiev.And i doesnt want live in another city.Its stoping me.Kiev its mother of russian cities. I think independence no sense for Ukraine.We must be part of Russia.My hope its Great Slavian Union. Which countries do you thnik should be part of the Great Slavian Union? All slavian countries.Bulgaria its too slavian coutry.But i doesnt know about Bulgaria want it or not.But Ukraine-Russia-Belarus union its first step.
soo in this line of thought...
Lets create a glorious Finno-ugric union from this map;
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 18 2014 01:44 caelym wrote:
What happens next? Crimea voted to join Russia; now does Russia have to vote to accept Crimea?
Exactly, and after all we gonna have a big referendum in May, which eventually may become a starting point of russian army moves in eastern ukraine citys. Cause we have here a lot of russian-speaking, and we must be protected, right? :DDD
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Don't worry, you'll get to have a fair referendum afterwards if you want to join them.
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from reddit re that 127%-article posted earlier:
Somebody mixed 1 724 563 and 1 563 724.
If we subtract 1563724 - 1250426 we get 313298 voters in Sevastopol.
Dividing by the population of 385462(which is inaccurate), you get 81.3%. The stated ratio is 82,71%.
They are quoting the press-conference of the local election official who clearly says 1,524,563 total voters at about 1 minute mark. The correspondent of the ITAR-TASS agency was either listening to something else or playing Flappy Bird or whatever and originally quoted that official as saying 1,724,563 total voters. Half an hour after that they reported 1,524,563. It's a typo in one report, not a conspiracy.
ghan posting cold hard verifiable facts eh?
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On March 18 2014 01:53 Simberto wrote:
Don't worry, you'll get to have a fair referendum afterwards if you want to join them.
Fair just like it was in Crimea? Or u talking about realisticly fair way to choose? I've already posted a poll in social media across Kharkov, those who supported pro-russian journey to live were slightly above 30%. But we should notice that it was a people who got internet and who knew about this poll, and i'm almost sure that people above 40 years gonna vote for joining with Russia, that's scary, final results might be 50 to 50.
I'm not sure I wanna live in a country, which take a course on east with help of "old" soviet people. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things remains uncertain.
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On March 18 2014 02:07 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:53 Simberto wrote:
Don't worry, you'll get to have a fair referendum afterwards if you want to join them. Fair just like it was in Crimea? Or u talking about realisticly fair way to choose? I've already posted a poll in social media across Kharkov, those who supported pro-russian journey to live were slightly above 30%. But we should notice that it was a people who got internet and who knew about this poll, and i'm almost sure that people above 40 years gonna vote for joining with Russia, that's scary, final results might be 50 to 50. I'm not sure I wanna live in a country, which take a course on east with help of "old" soviet people. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things remains uncertain.
It will probably be similarly fair as the crimean one, in the long tradition of russian democracy.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.elupuu.org/filebank/83-finno-ugric_map_info.jpg)
