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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:
And here it starts:
What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters.
***
Relevant:
It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong.
status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine
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On March 14 2014 23:27 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I was following euromaiden from the start. Initially EuroMaiden was nothing more than a protest against the fact that Yanikovych stopped preparation for EU trade agreement and all that it represents . After a sudden day of police violence, it gained much more popular support and it gained the purpose of the resignation of Yanukovych.
You know what, anyone that knows anything about eastern European politics knows that there are two types of pro-Europeans. There are your moderates, people that feel that the EU is inevitable and want to rationally make reforms and normalize their post-communist country, then you have the euro-taliban. Now, the euro-taliban are a horrible bunch. They are the former communists and idiots that are now somehow reformed. Oh they will tell you how great the European Union is and how that road has no alternative, but they leave out how just a couple of years ago they were singing a very different song. They leave out that once they get to power the only thing on their minds is how to siphon out money, they leave out all the relatives they will employ and how many mistresses’ paychecks they will pay for with taxpayer money. Europe has no alternative they will say in chorus while they run the country into the ground. Those people were the mainstream opposition to Yanukovych, who himself was the darling of the EU before he snubbed their deal for the Russian one.
Things aren’t much different in Serbia. We have elections coming up on the 16th, the man who will win over 40% of the vote is one of these euro-talibans. Aleksandar Vucic – a man who for 20 years since the 90’s was one of the spear heads of Seselj’s Radical party, a man who organized volunteer groups for the wars in ex-Yugoslavia, a man who spent most of his political career praising Ratko Mladic and Milosevic and hating the US and the EU these days tells a very different story. Since 2009 he turned full 180. You should see the grim determination in this mans eyes when he says Europe has no alternative, how the whole of Serbia is against him in his fight to bring us into the European Union. How he and the Socialist Party (Milosevic’s old party) will form a coalition and take down all the tycoons and criminals. How he works 25 hours a day to bring foreign companies to the country and still finds time to save a child stuck in a tree, oh how he dreams of Serbia in the EU.
Now, being someone who is a member of a political party that was for its whole existence against the insanity of the Milosevic regime and was for the European Union I get a unique feeling when someone who was the Minister of Information during the Milosevic years, calls me a tycoon lackey working against the European vision, I really do. Being a member of the most powerful pro-European party which ruled the country for a time I saw firsthand how profiteers, poltroons and in general shady people joined the European movement just because it was where the power was. I look around and see Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia, Ukraine, Albania ect. All of us eastern Europeans share the same problem… corruption.
I watched very closely when all of this started in Ukraine, I said many multiple times that the destruction, the tearing apart of Ukrainian society that was the hallmark of Maidan would not solve anything and that both sides were not ready to push through the reforms needed in Ukrainian society. That ruining your own country just to become a toy to poke Russia with was insane, that the people running Maidan had no idea what they were doing or what they would do once they got to power. That they would be no different than Yanukovych and that a total cleansing of the Ukrainian political scene was needed. But by then it was too late, the radicals and hooligans took center stage and you get what we have now in Ukraine.
In Serbia we have a total despot with a cult of personality in power, his party controls indirectly or directly all the main media in the country, most of the people that he props up in government positions are idiots who just want to steal money, anyone smarter than them gets removed lest they endanger the idiots position in power. In many ways it is worse than Yanukovych, yet when you turn on the tv the democratic opposition openly states that we do not want the insanity of the Ukrainian scenario in our country, that there are many ways to bring mini-dictators down without destroying your country for the next couple of generations. I will always defend my position that the way Euromaidan turned out was horrible, that the people running Ukraine now are even worse than Yanukovych.
You might think Svoboda, who used to be called the Socialist-Nationalist Party and now wave the European flag, or Tymoshenko, the woman who stole gas from the people of Ukraine and gave it to Russia are somehow better than Yanukovych, but you are wrong. They are the worst kind of cancer, and anyone bringing the chemotherapy into any part of Ukraine has my full support. Euro-taliban coming to power on the backs of radical extremists is the absolute bottom of the barrel.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 15 2014 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:42 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. What Gorsameth said is correct. Source. If you're not satisfied, there are much lengthier and in depth analyses of this as well. But mostly what matters is that the referendum contradicts the Ukrainian constitution and international law, so even if it were entirely accurate (which it isn't with people's passports being shredded by militia in the streets and tons more happening), it would still be illegitimate. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine This is smoke and mirrors. Look at the part above. Yes, they'd be a part of Ukraine, but the Crimean govt. would be given the powers to join Russia, which it has already said it would do.
In that case you could say that people voted to stay in Ukraine but the Cr goverment didnt listen to them.
So there is really an option to stay in Ukraine.
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On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine
If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too:
The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source.
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On March 15 2014 00:48 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. What Gorsameth said is correct. Source. If you're not satisfied, there are much lengthier and in depth analyses of this as well. But mostly what matters is that the referendum contradicts the Ukrainian constitution and international law, so even if it were entirely accurate (which it isn't with people's passports being shredded by militia in the streets and tons more happening), it would still be illegitimate. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine This is smoke and mirrors. Look at the part above. Yes, they'd be a part of Ukraine, but the Crimean govt. would be given the powers to join Russia, which it has already said it would do. In that case you could say that people voted to stay in Ukraine but the Cr goverment didnt listen to them. So there is really an option to stay in Ukraine.
Im sure that feeling will help the people of Ukraine when they are forced to join Russia against there will.
oh wait it wont.
There is no "No" option on the referendum regardless of how you try and twist or turn it. and hence is it meaningless
And that statement "status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine", is as meaningful as Russia's promise to maintain Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. Toilet paper at best.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: Show nested quote +The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source.
I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter.
If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens.
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On March 15 2014 00:48 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. What Gorsameth said is correct. Source. If you're not satisfied, there are much lengthier and in depth analyses of this as well. But mostly what matters is that the referendum contradicts the Ukrainian constitution and international law, so even if it were entirely accurate (which it isn't with people's passports being shredded by militia in the streets and tons more happening), it would still be illegitimate. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine This is smoke and mirrors. Look at the part above. Yes, they'd be a part of Ukraine, but the Crimean govt. would be given the powers to join Russia, which it has already said it would do. In that case you could say that people voted to stay in Ukraine but the Cr goverment didnt listen to them. So there is really an option to stay in Ukraine.
There should be a status quo option. There is not. There is either join Russia, or change constitution to something that the government has already stated will lead to them joining Russia.
There must be a 'change nothing' option.
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On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens.
Why would they not join Russia?
Russia has already shown it has no problem with beating down protests and imprisoning political opponents. What makes this different?
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On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:On March 14 2014 19:24 Ghanburighan wrote:And here it starts: https://twitter.com/Artyomliss/status/444417364864794624What's especially perverse about this excuse for more military intervention is that in the videos (also posted in this thread), and according to all source, pro-Russia protesters were the ones that attacked and killed pro-Ukraine protesters. *** Relevant: https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/444416025430196224It should be absolutely clear now that this military intervention that Russia is planning is aimed at protecting `compatriots' from pro-Russia thugs, many of which don't even live in Ukraine. So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false. That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens.
If you disagree, you need to give reasons for it. And this `just an analyst' is pretty much any analyst i.e., expert on international law you can find. You can read the questions yourself. You can read the laws. You know that there is no Status Quo option. And you know the second option gives the Crimean govt. the means to join Russia. So the vote is illegitimate. It doesn't matter if YOU think they dare to join or not, the referendum is void.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 15 2014 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:
[quote]
So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false.
That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. Why would they not join Russia? Russia has already shown it has no problem with beating down protests and imprisoning political opponents. What makes this different?
If people of Crimea voted to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine then Russia would back of I guarantee.
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On March 15 2014 01:04 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be.
Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"?
Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy?
Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. Why would they not join Russia? Russia has already shown it has no problem with beating down protests and imprisoning political opponents. What makes this different? If people of Crimea voted to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine then Russia would back of I guarantee.
In the same way that Russia backed off when they invaded Crimea?
oh wait... no they did that bit.
I understand you don't see the world as we do. Government controlled media does that but don't tell me you don't see how this referendum is bullshit.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 15 2014 01:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:28 MikeMM wrote:
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So you instantly accept results of this poll but you already call the referendum which hasnt happened yet false.
That just shows how biased you are. The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be. Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"? Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy? Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. If you disagree, you need to give reasons for it. And this `just an analyst' is pretty much any analyst i.e., expert on international law you can find. You can read the questions yourself. You can read the laws. You know that there is no Status Quo option. And you know the second option gives the Crimean govt. the means to join Russia. So the vote is illegitimate. It doesn't matter if YOU think they dare to join or not, the referendum is void.
I disagree because analyst assumes that gov would decide to join Russia.
He as easely could have assumed that gov would decide to stay in Ukraine given the fact that people on referendum said so.
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On March 15 2014 01:08 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 01:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The linked poll has a yes and no option. It is already infinitely more unbiased then the referendum will ever be.
Do you get the fact that the poll only has a "join Russia now" and a "join Russia a little later" option and no "keep it as it is"?
Does that look like a referendum that has any point or legitimacy?
Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later". If you cant then stop talking nonsense. Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. If you disagree, you need to give reasons for it. And this `just an analyst' is pretty much any analyst i.e., expert on international law you can find. You can read the questions yourself. You can read the laws. You know that there is no Status Quo option. And you know the second option gives the Crimean govt. the means to join Russia. So the vote is illegitimate. It doesn't matter if YOU think they dare to join or not, the referendum is void. I disagree because analyst assumes that gov would decide to join Russia. He as easely could have assumed that gov would decide to stay in Ukraine given the fact that people on referendum said so.
So why is there no option to maintain the current situation.
Why?
If they really wanted to offer an option for the Crimea people to stay with Ukraine why is there no choice that guarantees that beyond all doubt?
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 15 2014 01:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 01:04 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:
[quote]
Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later".
If you cant then stop talking nonsense.
Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. Why would they not join Russia? Russia has already shown it has no problem with beating down protests and imprisoning political opponents. What makes this different? If people of Crimea voted to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine then Russia would back of I guarantee. In the same way that Russia backed off when they invaded Crimea? oh wait... no they did that bit. I understand you don't see the world as we do. Government controlled media does that but don't tell me you don't see how this referendum is bullshit.
I am an adult and Im not really influenced by media.
Do you recognize division of Serbia? I think its the same situation as with Crimea. But USA and EU recognized Kosovo. So I dont understand why they dont want to recognize the will of people of Crimea.
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On March 15 2014 01:13 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 01:06 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 01:04 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
Here we go again
There are 2 options on the referendum ballot.
1) is to join Russia
2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia.
A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm.
Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that?
Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. Why would they not join Russia? Russia has already shown it has no problem with beating down protests and imprisoning political opponents. What makes this different? If people of Crimea voted to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine then Russia would back of I guarantee. In the same way that Russia backed off when they invaded Crimea? oh wait... no they did that bit. I understand you don't see the world as we do. Government controlled media does that but don't tell me you don't see how this referendum is bullshit. I am an adult and Im not really influenced by media. Do you recognize division of Serbia. I think its the same situation as with Crimea. But USA and EU recognized Kosovo. So I dont understand why they dont want to recognize the will of people of Crimea.
Because there land is full of foreign soldiers who they dont want there patrolling the streets and the referendum has no choice to maintain the status quo. This has all been said to you a dozen times already.
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On March 15 2014 01:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2014 01:08 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 01:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:53 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:48 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 15 2014 00:43 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:42 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:40 MikeMM wrote:On March 15 2014 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:On March 15 2014 00:34 MikeMM wrote:
[quote]
Just show me that list where is written "join Russia a little later".
If you cant then stop talking nonsense.
Here we go again There are 2 options on the referendum ballot. 1) is to join Russia 2) is to revert to a Constitution from 2012 which gave Crimea more autonomy. Most importantly it would let them declare themselves a part of Russia. A declaration the local Crimea government has already made but it was ignored by everyone because they cannot legally do so atm. Do tell me where the option to keep the current situation is in that? Its a join Russia now or join later referendum. You wrote option 2 incompletely. you missed quite an important part. Please write it completely and then we will continue discussion. Sorry my Russian in a little rusty. Please enlighten me. If there is an actual option to maintain the status-quo I will gladly admit I am wrong. status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine If you're going to repost that stuff without reading what has already been posted in response, let me repost the counter again too: The 1992 national blueprint - which was adopted soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then quickly abolished by the young post-Soviet Ukrainian state - is far from [returning to the status quo]. This foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including Russia. With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say. The option of asking people if they wish to stick with the status quo - in which Crimea enjoys autonomy but remains part of Ukraine - is not on offer. Source. I read it and I disagree with it. Its just an opinion of some analyst and you present it as given matter. If people vote to keep status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine Cr goverment wont dare to join Russia since it doesnt have support of citizens. If you disagree, you need to give reasons for it. And this `just an analyst' is pretty much any analyst i.e., expert on international law you can find. You can read the questions yourself. You can read the laws. You know that there is no Status Quo option. And you know the second option gives the Crimean govt. the means to join Russia. So the vote is illegitimate. It doesn't matter if YOU think they dare to join or not, the referendum is void. I disagree because analyst assumes that gov would decide to join Russia. He as easely could have assumed that gov would decide to stay in Ukraine given the fact that people on referendum said so. So why is there no option to maintain the current situation. Why? If they really wanted to offer an option for the Crimea people to stay with Ukraine why is there no choice that guarantees that beyond all doubt?
Because they want more leverage should they stay in Ukraine, you want them to stay status quo, while the whole situation in Ukraine significantly changed.
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So, is there any possibility we can remove Russia's permanent UN Security Council seat as a form of punishment for this?
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No, and honestly I hope it doesn't get to the point where that would ever be needed.
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Also Ukraine has stated that it will consider referendums such as this in other areas outside of Crimea not legal as well, and won't recognize them. So whether Russian troops are present or not, is not a factor for them.
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EPT
