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Ukraine Crisis - Page 274

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 11 2014 23:05 GMT
#5461
that's all? I thought Ukraine was actually important. For US budget, that's like 380 million a year, which is nothing considering what our intelligence and espionage spending plus foreign support is.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 11 2014 23:20 GMT
#5462
On March 12 2014 07:29 nunez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 06:23 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:15 Simberto wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:09 Cheerio wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:02 TheFish7 wrote:
If they prevent Russian channels from being shown in Ukraine, that just validates the Russian propaganda. Let everyone say what they want, the people can decide what to believe.

We are having a propaganda war here. Peacetime rhetorics don't apply right now.


Silencing the opposition is not something that leads to a free society. Free media is a staple point of all western democracies, simply because a state controlled media gives too much power over the thoughts of the population to the wrong people.

Even if i disagree with what someone is saying, i still think that they should be allowed to say it.


Another complication to consider (although, I repeat, not to be taken as the convincing argument) is that this is not `the opposition', it's another country. - one that is vastly superior in its wealth and soft power. Would you be ok if before the next German elections, all popular channels in Germany were filled with propaganda for a random party with ties to another country (let's use Linke as an arbitrary example), such that its advertising budget would effectively be triple or quadruple the advertising budgets of all other parties combined. I'm not saying this is exactly what's the case in Ukraine atm, but it's the root of the problem.


according to nuland us has spent over 5 billion dollars on shaping ukraine politics to their liking since 1991, dunno what the ruskis tally is.

quote?
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 11 2014 23:20 GMT
#5463
Putin said it’s not his troops who are surrounding Ukrainian army installations. Yet Bochkarev, the Simferopol commander, said Russian involvement is key.

“The fact that our Russian brothers are here gives us a 100 percent confidence,” Bochkarev said.

Between Sevastopol and Simferopol, cars stop at a militia checkpoint. Men in camouflage gear open trunks and scrutinize documents, while women cook in a nearby tent. A banner says: “Russia is the cemetery for ideas that are conceived by evil.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-11/crimea-s-russian-militia-swells-as-referendum-risks-call-to-arms.html
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
March 11 2014 23:28 GMT
#5464
On March 12 2014 08:20 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 07:29 nunez wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:23 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:15 Simberto wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:09 Cheerio wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:02 TheFish7 wrote:
If they prevent Russian channels from being shown in Ukraine, that just validates the Russian propaganda. Let everyone say what they want, the people can decide what to believe.

We are having a propaganda war here. Peacetime rhetorics don't apply right now.


Silencing the opposition is not something that leads to a free society. Free media is a staple point of all western democracies, simply because a state controlled media gives too much power over the thoughts of the population to the wrong people.

Even if i disagree with what someone is saying, i still think that they should be allowed to say it.


Another complication to consider (although, I repeat, not to be taken as the convincing argument) is that this is not `the opposition', it's another country. - one that is vastly superior in its wealth and soft power. Would you be ok if before the next German elections, all popular channels in Germany were filled with propaganda for a random party with ties to another country (let's use Linke as an arbitrary example), such that its advertising budget would effectively be triple or quadruple the advertising budgets of all other parties combined. I'm not saying this is exactly what's the case in Ukraine atm, but it's the root of the problem.


according to nuland us has spent over 5 billion dollars on shaping ukraine politics to their liking since 1991, dunno what the ruskis tally is.

quote?

boom
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 11 2014 23:29 GMT
#5465

In its current form the referendum regarding Crimea scheduled for March 16, 2014, is in contradiction with the Ukrainian Constitution and must be considered illegal, Swiss Foreign Minister and OSCE Chair Didier Burkhalter said.

For any referendum regarding the degree of autonomy or sovereignty of the Crimea to be legitimate, it would need to be based on the Ukrainian constitution and would have to be in line with international law, he said. In that context, Burkhalter called upon all actors to refrain from supporting unconstitutional activities.

The Chair also ruled out the possibility of an OSCE observation of the planned referendum of March 16 as the basic criteria for a decision in a constitutional framework was not met. Furthermore, an invitation by the participating State concerned would be a precondition to any observation activity in this regard.
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 23:41:30
March 11 2014 23:35 GMT
#5466
On March 12 2014 08:28 nunez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 08:20 Cheerio wrote:
On March 12 2014 07:29 nunez wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:23 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:15 Simberto wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:09 Cheerio wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:02 TheFish7 wrote:
If they prevent Russian channels from being shown in Ukraine, that just validates the Russian propaganda. Let everyone say what they want, the people can decide what to believe.

We are having a propaganda war here. Peacetime rhetorics don't apply right now.


Silencing the opposition is not something that leads to a free society. Free media is a staple point of all western democracies, simply because a state controlled media gives too much power over the thoughts of the population to the wrong people.

Even if i disagree with what someone is saying, i still think that they should be allowed to say it.


Another complication to consider (although, I repeat, not to be taken as the convincing argument) is that this is not `the opposition', it's another country. - one that is vastly superior in its wealth and soft power. Would you be ok if before the next German elections, all popular channels in Germany were filled with propaganda for a random party with ties to another country (let's use Linke as an arbitrary example), such that its advertising budget would effectively be triple or quadruple the advertising budgets of all other parties combined. I'm not saying this is exactly what's the case in Ukraine atm, but it's the root of the problem.


according to nuland us has spent over 5 billion dollars on shaping ukraine politics to their liking since 1991, dunno what the ruskis tally is.

quote?

boom


Since its independence in 1991, the American people have supported Ukraine’s transition to democracy and a free market economy with over $5 billion in assistance. In FY2013, our assistance topped $100 million, and much of it went to help Ukraine meet European standards in law enforcement, electoral reform, business climate and the judicial sector, including key support for Ukraine’s newly adopted Criminal Procedure Code. If Ukraine meets the EU’s conditions and signs in Vilnius, it will be able to export its goods to the largest single market in the world, tariff-free, by early 2014. This should provide a great stimulus to an economy which has been in a difficult recession for over a year. In the past few months, Ukraine has come under pressure from Russia, including bans on chocolate, stoppage of refrigerated goods at the border, and reductions in other key imports. We are working with the EU on options to help Ukraine make difficult trade adjustments and weather the EU implementation period if Ukraine makes the political decisions necessary to sign its AA at Vilnius.

well, thanks US I guess.

And if you are wondering what the Russian tally is, they gave a 3 billion loan just last December and made a gas price cut to support the "draconic" laws ratification on 16 January. Ukrainians weren't particularly happy about that.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 23:37:35
March 11 2014 23:36 GMT
#5467
I'm just curious.
Okay, let's say, referendum is happened, Crimea is de facto part of Russia. De jure it's part of Ukraine, even if autonomic. AFAIK OFC. I really don't know details.

What happen next? Years of useless whine from both sides? Because i barely can believe that there is at least 1% chance that war will occure because of Ukraine.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22487 Posts
March 11 2014 23:40 GMT
#5468
On March 12 2014 08:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I'm just curious.
Okay, let's say, referendum is happened, Crimea is de facto part of Russia. De jure it's part of Ukraine, even if autonomic. AFAIK OFC. I really don't know details.

What happen next? Years of useless whine from both sides? Because i barely can believe that there is at least 1% chance that war will occure because of Ukraine.

Ukraine cant move. There only real possible action at this moment seems to be active aggression against the occupying forces and then its war with Russia which it cant win.
The question is will EU/US take action and from what we have been seeing sofar I would say no unless there is giant and super obvious fraud with the referendum.

Considering the current postures I dont see a possible scenario in which the Crimea doesnt join Russia.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
March 11 2014 23:41 GMT
#5469
On March 12 2014 08:35 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 08:28 nunez wrote:
On March 12 2014 08:20 Cheerio wrote:
On March 12 2014 07:29 nunez wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:23 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:15 Simberto wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:09 Cheerio wrote:
On March 12 2014 06:02 TheFish7 wrote:
If they prevent Russian channels from being shown in Ukraine, that just validates the Russian propaganda. Let everyone say what they want, the people can decide what to believe.

We are having a propaganda war here. Peacetime rhetorics don't apply right now.


Silencing the opposition is not something that leads to a free society. Free media is a staple point of all western democracies, simply because a state controlled media gives too much power over the thoughts of the population to the wrong people.

Even if i disagree with what someone is saying, i still think that they should be allowed to say it.


Another complication to consider (although, I repeat, not to be taken as the convincing argument) is that this is not `the opposition', it's another country. - one that is vastly superior in its wealth and soft power. Would you be ok if before the next German elections, all popular channels in Germany were filled with propaganda for a random party with ties to another country (let's use Linke as an arbitrary example), such that its advertising budget would effectively be triple or quadruple the advertising budgets of all other parties combined. I'm not saying this is exactly what's the case in Ukraine atm, but it's the root of the problem.


according to nuland us has spent over 5 billion dollars on shaping ukraine politics to their liking since 1991, dunno what the ruskis tally is.

quote?

boom


Show nested quote +
Since its independence in 1991, the American people have supported Ukraine’s transition to democracy and a free market economy with over $5 billion in assistance. In FY2013, our assistance topped $100 million, and much of it went to help Ukraine meet European standards in law enforcement, electoral reform, business climate and the judicial sector, including key support for Ukraine’s newly adopted Criminal Procedure Code. If Ukraine meets the EU’s conditions and signs in Vilnius, it will be able to export its goods to the largest single market in the world, tariff-free, by early 2014. This should provide a great stimulus to an economy which has been in a difficult recession for over a year. In the past few months, Ukraine has come under pressure from Russia, including bans on chocolate, stoppage of refrigerated goods at the border, and reductions in other key imports. We are working with the EU on options to help Ukraine make difficult trade adjustments and weather the EU implementation period if Ukraine makes the political decisions necessary to sign its AA at Vilnius.

well, thanks US I guess.

no need to thank them, it is not charity.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
March 11 2014 23:55 GMT
#5470
On March 12 2014 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 08:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I'm just curious.
Okay, let's say, referendum is happened, Crimea is de facto part of Russia. De jure it's part of Ukraine, even if autonomic. AFAIK OFC. I really don't know details.

What happen next? Years of useless whine from both sides? Because i barely can believe that there is at least 1% chance that war will occure because of Ukraine.

Ukraine cant move. There only real possible action at this moment seems to be active aggression against the occupying forces and then its war with Russia which it cant win.
The question is will EU/US take action and from what we have been seeing sofar I would say no unless there is giant and super obvious fraud with the referendum.

Considering the current postures I dont see a possible scenario in which the Crimea doesnt join Russia.


Ye, i agree here.
If nothing suspicious occures with results, i guess, EU/US will agree that it's ok.
Not really ok, but at least, they will be able to live with it.
Poor Ukraine though. Being alone without any real help has to be sad.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
March 11 2014 23:59 GMT
#5471
Well... But since Ukraine won't recognize the territorial loss, they will be unable to join the NATO, as it is quite clearly stated, that no nation involved in a territorial dispute can join the alliance...
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-12 00:02:36
March 12 2014 00:00 GMT
#5472
On March 12 2014 08:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I'm just curious.
Okay, let's say, referendum is happened, Crimea is de facto part of Russia. De jure it's part of Ukraine, even if autonomic. AFAIK OFC. I really don't know details.

What happen next? Years of useless whine from both sides? Because i barely can believe that there is at least 1% chance that war will occure because of Ukraine.

It will be like Abkhazia/Ossetia/Transdnistria. You will pay lots of your money to maintain it, especially if Ukraine shuts off the water and electricity and its weird status will lead to a rise of crime just like in those places, lots of smuggling and stuff. I guess Russia says it wants to build a 3.5 billion dollar bridge to connect it to Russia physically?

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-11/losing-crimea-could-sink-ukraines-offshore-oil-and-gas-hopes#r=hpt-ls
Without Crimea, Ukraine looks set to lose an important piece of its economic and energy future: valuable undersea oil and gas fields that lie just offshore the Crimean peninsula. Exploiting those Black Sea fields could help reduce Ukraine’s dependence on Russian gas imports.

Ukraine has estimated that oil and gas production from Skifska, along with another Crimean offshore area known as Foros, could reach the energy equivalent of up to 7 million tons of oil annually. That’s less than 10 percent of the oil and gas Norway extracts annually from beneath the North Sea. Still, it totals about 20 percent of Ukraine’s current annual gas imports, which come mainly from Russia and have been a longstanding source of friction between the two countries.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
March 12 2014 00:03 GMT
#5473
On March 12 2014 09:00 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 08:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I'm just curious.
Okay, let's say, referendum is happened, Crimea is de facto part of Russia. De jure it's part of Ukraine, even if autonomic. AFAIK OFC. I really don't know details.

What happen next? Years of useless whine from both sides? Because i barely can believe that there is at least 1% chance that war will occure because of Ukraine.

It will be like Abkhazia/Ossetia/Transdnistria. You will pay lots of your money to maintain it, especially if Ukraine shuts off the water and electricity and its weird status will lead to a rise of crime just like in those places, lots of smuggling and stuff.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-11/losing-crimea-could-sink-ukraines-offshore-oil-and-gas-hopes#r=hpt-ls
Show nested quote +
Without Crimea, Ukraine looks set to lose an important piece of its economic and energy future: valuable undersea oil and gas fields that lie just offshore the Crimean peninsula. Exploiting those Black Sea fields could help reduce Ukraine’s dependence on Russian gas imports.

Ukraine has estimated that oil and gas production from Skifska, along with another Crimean offshore area known as Foros, could reach the energy equivalent of up to 7 million tons of oil annually. That’s less than 10 percent of the oil and gas Norway extracts annually from beneath the North Sea. Still, it totals about 20 percent of Ukraine’s current annual gas imports, which come mainly from Russia and have been a longstanding source of friction between the two countries.


Once fucking again for retards.
Abkhazia, South Ossetia and ESPECIALLY Transdnistria aren't parts of Russia.
You can call them as "Zones of influence", but no more.

LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-12 00:16:01
March 12 2014 00:12 GMT
#5474
On March 12 2014 09:03 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 09:00 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 12 2014 08:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I'm just curious.
Okay, let's say, referendum is happened, Crimea is de facto part of Russia. De jure it's part of Ukraine, even if autonomic. AFAIK OFC. I really don't know details.

What happen next? Years of useless whine from both sides? Because i barely can believe that there is at least 1% chance that war will occure because of Ukraine.

It will be like Abkhazia/Ossetia/Transdnistria. You will pay lots of your money to maintain it, especially if Ukraine shuts off the water and electricity and its weird status will lead to a rise of crime just like in those places, lots of smuggling and stuff.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-11/losing-crimea-could-sink-ukraines-offshore-oil-and-gas-hopes#r=hpt-ls
Without Crimea, Ukraine looks set to lose an important piece of its economic and energy future: valuable undersea oil and gas fields that lie just offshore the Crimean peninsula. Exploiting those Black Sea fields could help reduce Ukraine’s dependence on Russian gas imports.

Ukraine has estimated that oil and gas production from Skifska, along with another Crimean offshore area known as Foros, could reach the energy equivalent of up to 7 million tons of oil annually. That’s less than 10 percent of the oil and gas Norway extracts annually from beneath the North Sea. Still, it totals about 20 percent of Ukraine’s current annual gas imports, which come mainly from Russia and have been a longstanding source of friction between the two countries.


Once fucking again for retards.
Abkhazia, South Ossetia and ESPECIALLY Transdnistria aren't parts of Russia.
You can call them as "Zones of influence", but no more.


Its going to be treated like that anyway, all those territories are recognized by the West as legally part Georgia/Moldova. So no foreign investors will want to be involved in it because of the legal uncertainty. So it will be Russian only show. The US will probably treat it the way they treated as Soviet occupation of the Baltics, it will always be viewed as illegal occupation.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 12 2014 00:39 GMT
#5475
Who could have guessed?


Kyrgyzstan's Foreign Ministry says ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych cannot be considered the legitimate leader of the country.

In a statement issued March 11, the Foreign Ministry said the current crisis in Ukraine was caused by corruption and wrong decisions by the former authorities of that country when Yanukovych was president.
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
March 12 2014 01:06 GMT
#5476
I would guess that Kyrgyzstan is afraid of being next, since it has a significant Russian population. It's a rather ironic statemet considering the level of corruption in Krygystan though.
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-12 01:27:43
March 12 2014 01:15 GMT
#5477
On March 12 2014 10:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I would guess that Kyrgyzstan is afraid of being next, since it has a significant Russian population. It's a rather ironic statemet considering the level of corruption in Krygystan though.


Can we just swap Kyrgyzes from Moscow for Russian population there just to free some working slots here, save someone from being killed/being on drugs/burglared and make situation peaceful?
Honestly.

Let's just live in peace.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-12 04:42:03
March 12 2014 02:00 GMT
#5478
On March 12 2014 10:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2014 10:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I would guess that Kyrgyzstan is afraid of being next, since it has a significant Russian population. It's a rather ironic statemet considering the level of corruption in Krygystan though.


Can we just swap Kyrgyzes from Moscow for Russian population there just to free some working slots here, save someone from being killed/being on drugs/burglared and make situation peaceful?
Honestly.

Let's just live in peace.

Everyone knows the only criminals in Moscow are the Muslims right.

I am actually surprised Kyrgiz spoke up, they and Tajikistan are probably the most pro-Russian ones since their state is so weak. Not surprised that Kazakhstan -- 60% Russian in 1989 population and all that valuable oil -- and Uzbekistan -- anyone who couldnt speak Uzbek cannot work, so Russians gtfo in the early 90s laws -- are keeping quiet.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/11/eu-tells-russia-start-ukraine-talks-or-face-sanctions
Russians based in London – or oligarchs in Moscow who base their assets in London – will be exempt from sanctions because they are not linked to the "infringements".

War or Peace, the City must be protected at all costs.
And the oil must flow
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/exxon-russia-oil-104556.html?hp=r2
So far, none of the measures being publicly discussed would pose a major threat to Exxon’s operations in Russia. Leaders in the U.S. have given no indications that they are willing to impose sanctions on Russia comparable to those they have imposed for countries like Iran, which prohibit doing business with a hostile regime.

Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-12 07:24:55
March 12 2014 07:06 GMT
#5479







***

Also, why would they appoint this chick as district attorney of Crimea?!
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
March 12 2014 07:25 GMT
#5480
Seems like Putin got what he wanted:

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/122142-putin-s-approval-rating-climbs-amid-crimea-crisis

Maintaining his strong man image in Russia is probably more important to him than Crimea.
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