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Ukraine Crisis - Page 23

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8725 Posts
January 24 2014 00:49 GMT
#441
Thank you for the updates, stay safe!
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
Noizhende
Profile Joined January 2012
Austria328 Posts
January 24 2014 17:35 GMT
#442
http://www.rebecca-harms.de/index.php/lesen/brief-von-juri-andruchowytsch-zur-aktuellen-situation-in-k-30332

Letter from Yuri Andrukhovych about the situation in Ukraine

Yuri Andrukhovych is an award-winning author from the Ukraine


Dear friends,

especially foreign journalists and editors,

These days I receive from you lots of inquiries requesting to describe the current situation in Kyiv and overall in Ukraine, express my opinion on what is happening, and formulate my vision of at least the nearest future. Since I am simply physically unable to respond separately to each of your publications with an extended analytical essay, I have decided to prepare this brief statement which each of you can use in accordance with your needs.

The most important things I must tell you are as follows.

During the less than four years of its rule, Mr. Yanukovych’s regime has brought the country and the society to the utter limit of tensions. Even worse, it has boxed itself into a no-exit situation where it must hold on to power forever—by any means necessary. Otherwise it would have to face criminal justice in its full severity. The scale of what has been stolen and usurped exceeds all imaginination of what human avarice is capable.

The only answer this regime has been proposing in the face of peaceful protests, now in their third month, is violence, violence that escalates and is “hybrid” in its nature: special forces’ attacks at the Maidan are combined with individual harassment and persecution of opposition activists and ordinary participants in protest actions (surveillance, beatings, torching of cars and houses, storming of residences, searches, arrests, rubber-stamp court proceedings). The keyword here is intimidation. And since it is ineffective, and people are protesting on an increasingly massive scale, the powers-that-be make these repressive actions even harsher.

The “legal base” for them was created on January 16, when the Members of Parliament fully dependent on the President, in a crude violation of all rules of procedure and voting, indeed of the Constitution itself, in the course of just a couple of minutes (!) with a simple show of hands (!) voted in a whole series of legal changes which effectively introduce dictatorial rule and a state of emergency in the country without formally declaring them. For instance, by writing and disseminating this, I am subject to several new criminal code articles for “defamation,” “inflaming tensions,” etc.

Briefly put, if these “laws” are recognized, one should conclude: in Ukraine, everything that is not expressly permitted by the powers-that-be is forbidden. And the only thing permitted by those in power is to yield to them.

Not agreeing to these “laws,” on January 19 the Ukrainian society rose up, yet again, to defend its future.

Today in television newsreels coming from Kyiv you can see protesters in various kinds of helmets and masks on their faces, sometimes with wooden sticks in their hands. Do not believe that these are “extremists,” “provocateurs,” or “right-wing radicals.” My friends and I also now go out protesting dressed this way. In this sense my wife, my daughter, our friends, and I are also “extremists.” We have no other option: we have to protect our life and health,as well as the life and health of those near and dear to us. Special forces units shoot at us, their snipers kill our friends. The number of protesters killed just on one block in the city’s government quarter is, according to different reports, either 5 or 7. Additionally, dozens of people in Kyiv are missing.

We cannot halt the protests, for this would mean that we agree to live in a country that has been turned into a lifelong prison. The younger generation of Ukrainians, which grew up and matured in the post-Soviet years, organically rejects all forms of dictatorship. If dictatorship wins, Europe must take into account the prospect of a North Korea at its eastern border and, according to various estimates, between 5 and 10 million refugees. I do not want to frighten you.

We now have a revolution of the young. Those in power wage their war first and foremost against them. When darkness falls on Kyiv, unidentified groups of “people in civilian clothes” roam the city, hunting for the young people, especially those who wear the symbols of the Maidan or the European Union. They kidnap them, take them out into forests, where they are stripped and tortured in fiercely cold weather. For some strange reason the victims of such actions are overwhelmingly young artists—actors, painters, poets. One feels that some strange “death squadrons” have been released in the country with an assignment to wipe out all that is best in it.

One more characteristic detail: in Kyiv hospitals the police force entraps the wounded protesters; they are kidnapped and (I repeat, we are talking about wounded persons) taken out for interrogation at undisclosed locations. It has become dangerous to turn to a hospital even for random passersby who were grazed by a shard of a police plastic grenade. The medics only gesture helplessly and release the patients to the so-called “law enforcement.”

To conclude: in Ukraine full-scale crimes against humanity are now being committed, and it is the present government that is responsible for them. If there are any extremists present in this situation, it is the country’s highest leadership that deserves to be labeled as such.

And now turning to your two questions which are traditionally the most difficult for me to answer: I don’t know what will happen next, just as I don’t know what you could now do for us. However, you can disseminate, to the extent your contacts and possibilities allow, this appeal. Also, empathize with us. Think about us. We shall overcome all the same, no matter how hard they rage. The Ukrainian people, without exaggeration, now defend the European values of a free and just society with their own blood. I very much hope that you will appreciate this.

Yuri Andrukhovych.
Die neuen Tempel haben schon Risse - künftige Ruinen - einst wächst Gras auch über diese Stadt - über ihre letzte Schicht
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
January 24 2014 20:34 GMT
#443
^^ That's some pretty intriguing stuff.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 24 2014 20:36 GMT
#444
Makes me really glad my parents decided to move out of there when I was just a little kid. I wonder if any country will intervene, such as perhaps the US, since we seem so fond of intervening with other countries in times like this, or if ukraines lack of anything to offer to us means us and most likely the rest of the world will just stay back and watch.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22132 Posts
January 24 2014 20:38 GMT
#445
On January 25 2014 05:36 hunts wrote:
Makes me really glad my parents decided to move out of there when I was just a little kid. I wonder if any country will intervene, such as perhaps the US, since we seem so fond of intervening with other countries in times like this, or if ukraines lack of anything to offer to us means us and most likely the rest of the world will just stay back and watch.

im 99.9% sure the US wont intervene. If anything happends it has to come from the EU and I doubt they are willing to intervene in this unless major crimes against humanity happen.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
January 24 2014 20:50 GMT
#446
I think that although the US isn't on the best terms with Russia, they'd rather stay neutral than lend support to the pro-EU side and let the US-Russia relationship deteriorate.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
January 24 2014 21:50 GMT
#447
And EU is a deadlock with no foreign policy decissiveness at all. The only hope of western intervention is if a European nation decides to intervene nationally and that is unlikely given the situation in Syria, where the geopolitical fronts seem to be the same.

Btw. the letter from Yuri Andrukhovych seems to neglect that Europe already has a russian supported dictatorship at the door with Belarus. Ukraine going in the same direction is not going to change that much for Europe.
Repeat before me
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 00:41:54
January 24 2014 22:55 GMT
#448
The thing that EU and US should do is to pressure Yanukovich into preliminary elections to end the escalation of conflict. That isn't much to ask for. Clearly if hundreds of thousands of people go in the streets in the freezing weather to rebel against the authorities and about 50% of the country supports them, something must be done immediately. If authorities value their posts more than the integrity of the country and human lives, I don't think such authorities have the right to hold their power.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 19:53:29
January 25 2014 12:45 GMT
#449
Ukraine is rising up. Since most of the special units have been deployed to Kyiv there are few forces to protect the regional representatives of the executive branch. At least 9 Regional State Administrations have been taken by now. Some others are being blocked.
[image loading]
blue marks captured RSAs, red - where attempts to capture those had been made or are in progress.

Numerous groups of hardcore football fans (ultras) pledged their alliance to Euromaidan and promised to protect Euromaidan activists in cities of Central and Eastern Ukraine, including Donetsk, Kharkiv, Dnipropetrivsk, Poltava, Zaporizhya.

Police officers in Volyn Oblast' en masse claimed that they support Euromaidan.

There is information that Berkut officers in Kyiv are being paid $1000 per day, that is twice more than their usual monthly salary. Prime Minister Azarov also promised to build (or buy) house property for those officers who didn't own it (most of them).
AlternativeEgo
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden17309 Posts
January 25 2014 12:58 GMT
#450
I saw that the Ukrainian players - Strelok, Kas and Bly - have cancelled their participation in ASUS ROG. Are there restrictions on traveling now or has that not changed?
Mark Munoz looks like Gretorp
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
January 25 2014 17:50 GMT
#451
So what are the opinions on partitioning Ukraine? I know we are still far from a total collapse but how would it look like, and what do the people think?
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
January 25 2014 18:21 GMT
#452
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?
Roman666
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland1440 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 18:58:21
January 25 2014 18:57 GMT
#453
On January 26 2014 03:21 Crushinator wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?

It is not good news, by any means. If they would accept it, the protests which were against Yanukovych himself would become pointless in meaning. What I think is going on, is that Yanukovych tries to divide the opposition, hoping that part of them will be tempted to get into the government at any cost, resulting in differences in opinion between opposition leaders. Also he may be able to say, that opposition rejected his "very generous" proposal and is bloodthirsty. I doubt he even considers the positive reply from opposition.
Influ
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany780 Posts
January 25 2014 19:06 GMT
#454
On January 26 2014 02:50 EtherealBlade wrote:
So what are the opinions on partitioning Ukraine? I know we are still far from a total collapse but how would it look like, and what do the people think?


Saperating the people of a nation through an ideologic border that becomes a real border is like drawing the frontline for the next war. The last 65 years have shown that this a very bad idea.

I don't know what to think about this integration of the opposition into the government, it seems to me like they want to split up the opposition instead of changing anything even though it is at a high price.
kalstrams
Profile Joined July 2011
33 Posts
January 25 2014 19:10 GMT
#455
On December 04 2013 05:26 Saryph wrote:
I hadn't heard about this story until a few days ago, and then someone posted this video, which is supposedly armor being moved by rail into the Kiev region due to the protests.

I have to note that all the pieces transported there are of heavy artillery, with the exception of BTR-60. All this stuff has been abolished from military use long ago and it can easily be just another pack of machinery that is being transported for utilisation.
On December 03 2013 07:00 Gotard wrote:
You can hear information about this in polish TV all day long. I hope this will end as soon as possible in a peaceful way. I wonder how different far east is form western Ukraine? Are they also support anti-government protests?

No, there are supporters of government there as well, and I would say, that they are the majority, because most of the east Ukraine is former Russia. Refer to the picture below to get the idea on what is happening. Red is rebels, orange is blocked by rebels, orange stripes are protests that just started, blue is supports the government.

[image loading]
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
January 25 2014 19:12 GMT
#456
On January 26 2014 03:21 Crushinator wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?

As I read that, the handing over of government to the opposition is exactly what he doesn't offer.

He is offering some ministries and a weakening of presidential powers to stay in power. While it definitely is an offer worth exploring in further details and a positive cooperative move to avoid further escalation at the moment, it is pretty clear that Yanukovich is trying with all his might to avoid having to step down.
Repeat before me
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 19:23:37
January 25 2014 19:23 GMT
#457
On January 26 2014 03:57 Roman666 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2014 03:21 Crushinator wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?

It is not good news, by any means. If they would accept it, the protests which were against Yanukovych himself would become pointless in meaning. What I think is going on, is that Yanukovych tries to divide the opposition, hoping that part of them will be tempted to get into the government at any cost, resulting in differences in opinion between opposition leaders. Also he may be able to say, that opposition rejected his "very generous" proposal and is bloodthirsty. I doubt he even considers the positive reply from opposition.


That is the very worst interpretation, but would it not be easier for the opposition to get shit done, like elections, if they held positions of power?
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 20:09:07
January 25 2014 20:02 GMT
#458
On January 26 2014 04:23 Crushinator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2014 03:57 Roman666 wrote:
On January 26 2014 03:21 Crushinator wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?

It is not good news, by any means. If they would accept it, the protests which were against Yanukovych himself would become pointless in meaning. What I think is going on, is that Yanukovych tries to divide the opposition, hoping that part of them will be tempted to get into the government at any cost, resulting in differences in opinion between opposition leaders. Also he may be able to say, that opposition rejected his "very generous" proposal and is bloodthirsty. I doubt he even considers the positive reply from opposition.


That is the very worst interpretation, but would it not be easier for the opposition to get shit done, like elections, if they held positions of power?

The opposition doesn't control protesting people. This is turning into a pure revolution (uncontrolled) to destroy the oppressive regime. Last time there was also an agreement. They came back, declared the terms and people were just angered by it. I don't think anything less than preliminary Presidential and Parliament elections is going to work. And I don't think people will leave until the elections conclude in their favor. A lot of people view Yanukovich regime as terrorists who totally usurped power in the country, there can be no negotiations with the terrorists.
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
January 25 2014 20:06 GMT
#459
On January 26 2014 05:02 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2014 04:23 Crushinator wrote:
On January 26 2014 03:57 Roman666 wrote:
On January 26 2014 03:21 Crushinator wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?

It is not good news, by any means. If they would accept it, the protests which were against Yanukovych himself would become pointless in meaning. What I think is going on, is that Yanukovych tries to divide the opposition, hoping that part of them will be tempted to get into the government at any cost, resulting in differences in opinion between opposition leaders. Also he may be able to say, that opposition rejected his "very generous" proposal and is bloodthirsty. I doubt he even considers the positive reply from opposition.


That is the very worst interpretation, but would it not be easier for the opposition to get shit done, like elections, if they held positions of power?

The opposition doesn't control protesting people. This is turning into a pure revolution to destroy the oppressive regime. Last time there was also an agreement. They came back, declared the terms and people were just angered by it. I don't think anything less than preliminary Presidential and Parliament elections is going to work.


I see. Well I really hope there are elections soon.
Roman666
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland1440 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 20:10:06
January 25 2014 20:09 GMT
#460
On January 26 2014 04:23 Crushinator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2014 03:57 Roman666 wrote:
On January 26 2014 03:21 Crushinator wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25896786

So it seems Yanukovych is preparing to hand over government to the opposition. Good news, I geuss?

It is not good news, by any means. If they would accept it, the protests which were against Yanukovych himself would become pointless in meaning. What I think is going on, is that Yanukovych tries to divide the opposition, hoping that part of them will be tempted to get into the government at any cost, resulting in differences in opinion between opposition leaders. Also he may be able to say, that opposition rejected his "very generous" proposal and is bloodthirsty. I doubt he even considers the positive reply from opposition.


That is the very worst interpretation, but would it not be easier for the opposition to get shit done, like elections, if they held positions of power?

They would be accused of being in league with Yanukovych and lose the next elections by even larger margin where people would point that out. Joining Yanukovych's govt would be a suicidal from a political point of view.

Also:

The opposition doesn't control protesting people. This is turning into a pure revolution (uncontrolled) to destroy the oppressive regime. Last time there was also an agreement. They came back, declared the terms and people were just angered by it. I don't think anything less than preliminary Presidential and Parliament elections is going to work. And I don't think people will leave until the elections conclude in their favor. A lot of people view Yanukovich regime as terrorists who totally usurped power in the country, there can be no negotiations with the terrorists.

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