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On March 04 2014 08:39 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:32 Nyxisto wrote:On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 04 2014 03:49 Kamille wrote:
David Chamberlain's government has already decided for the EU. Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia  So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy You might be surprised but there are actually steps between banning visas and the total war. Europe could at least pass meaningful economic sanctions. Sanctions at the London stock market and freezing accounts of the leadership come to mind. Germany and UK already said that is off the table.
Nope, they didn't. Germany (both Steinmeier and Merkel) said, that RIGHT NOW Germany does not agree on such measures to keep the communications open, as cutting ties would not help any party involved. But they also stated quite clearly, that consequences will follow, if the Russian side does not give in...
Germany is just doing things in a different order...
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On March 04 2014 08:22 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/ukraine-crisis-us-europe-putin-crimeaShow nested quote +But at an emergency meeting in Brussels the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Italy and Spain resisted calls for trade sanctions, instead limiting discussion to freezing long-running talks with Russia on visa liberalisation that would have made it easier for Russians to visit Europe. Washington is also threatening to kick Russia out of the G8 group of leading economies, but Berlin opposes this.
Britain's attempts to ensure any EU action against Russia over Ukraine would exempt the City of London were embarrassingly revealed when a secret government document detailing the plan was photographed in Downing Street.
Senior Russian government figures insisted they wanted to avoid a war in Ukraine, but also demanded a new and "more inclusive" government in Kiev and that the policies of the country would have to take account of Russian interests.
Whether it is fear, respect, and/or goodwill that lead these European nations to wish to avoid any provocative measures against Russia, I hope Vlad and Friends understand this and do not escalate matters further. I believe they are aware of the devastation that war will cause to Ukraine, and won't make the mistake other countries have made when they want to get their way no matter the cost. Fingers crossed things end up status quo (although that won't completely be the case since the former president was usurped), but if a compromise can be reached that doesn't hurt Ukraine, and at the same time keeps the equilibrium between US and Russian interests in Ukraine, then that would be most ideal.
However, the Russians are being a bit pushy so I don't know. I'm just glad that the severity of current situation is soldiers walking around doing nothing but I am hoping it doesn't go past that. While this is still not a preferable scenario, armed conflict is a million times worse. The horror stories from Iraqis still make my blood run cold. Let us not forget that we have many TL community members and Starcraft professionals living in Ukraine. I don't know any of them personally, but to even think about their well-being and livelihood being threatened by possible war is frightening.
On March 04 2014 08:22 nunez wrote:
get the fuck out with micromanaging the thread.
i was enjoying the discussion on military strength.
it's relevant and interesting. go judicator.
I thank you for your kind words. I didn't foresee the following argument, but still that's my mistake. My apologies to BronzeKnee and others who were involved.
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Stating clearly that consequences will follow does not make clear what exactly the consequences will be.
From the tone and general reporting style from the mass media from UK, Germany and France, I get the impression that none of those countries want war and are actively trying to avoid a need for a conflict. This is of course under the asumption that the governments of those countries have some influences over the reporting of media from their respective countries.
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On March 04 2014 07:07 Fjodorov wrote:
Im not a nationalist myself, actually I dislike nationalist movements and rhetoric in politics, but I find it amusing that russia is telling Ukraine that they are not allowed to have nationalists in goverenment. I mean, look at Putin and Russia, they are very much nationalists and support and created lots of nationalist movements and youth groups etc.
Actually strange that few people pointed out this part of Russian hipocrisy considering how much neo-fascists cropped out in Russia recently often with silent support of Russian establishment.
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That'll be because euromaiden was never a nationalist movement in the first place. There is a difference between fascism and ultra rightwing nationalism and whatever else Russian news is propagating, and nationalism. All the posters claiming such things have throughly discredited themselves and can be safely ignored. And they are now busy on other websites now that Russian propaganda seems to have gone into full swing on more popular sites. There's no point pointing out the Russian hypocrisy, when the original statement of the hypocritical point is false in the first place.
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On March 04 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:00 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 03:40 Saumure wrote:On March 04 2014 03:20 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote:lol, do you really think Russia would invade Poland or something? Putin blocked the invasion of Syria (and what would have followed) and nobody finds it strange that another riot escalates next to russia immediatly after that?  Its all a Western plot, I knew it. Democracy always has such a dirty Western bias and must be prevented at all costs. Please, tell me more about how you brought democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia. How about Poland, Czehia, Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia instead?
And tell me how is democracy working out for you? Every x years (don't know where you live), you get the chance to vote for one out of two parties. Both will do basically the same thing, except for a couple of unimportant issues. You really don't get a say about anyting.
And however shitty it is, its still better than the one party, one tsar state built by Russians. Oh, now I understand Rubio's words, already history is being rewritten and we were given democracy by the West. We were just standing there not knowing what to do and good guys came and taught us democracy, because we never knew such a thing. You knew it. Then you lost it to the Germans and the Russians. And the Americans removed first the one then the other for you. One took much longer but your own attempt, like all small but proud democratic countries in the face of tanks, stalled.
American's did not remove the Soviets. They just outlasted them, I see no reason to give them any credit for our current democracy.
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So three hours left on the threat by Russia.
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On March 04 2014 08:06 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Something tells me that the people in England didn't want to get bombed every night either. I don't want war, but sometimes you go to war to avoid a worse war. The politics of avoidance of war is why WW2 was so terrible. It didn't have to be that way. Letting Putin just take Crimea is a tragedy for those in Crimea and Ukraine who don't want it. And it's wrong.
People already pointed out how bad analogy with 1938-9 this is.
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On March 04 2014 09:01 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 08:00 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 03:40 Saumure wrote:On March 04 2014 03:20 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote:lol, do you really think Russia would invade Poland or something? Putin blocked the invasion of Syria (and what would have followed) and nobody finds it strange that another riot escalates next to russia immediatly after that? Its all a Western plot, I knew it. Democracy always has such a dirty Western bias and must be prevented at all costs. Please, tell me more about how you brought democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia. How about Poland, Czehia, Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia instead?
And tell me how is democracy working out for you? Every x years (don't know where you live), you get the chance to vote for one out of two parties. Both will do basically the same thing, except for a couple of unimportant issues. You really don't get a say about anyting.
And however shitty it is, its still better than the one party, one tsar state built by Russians. Oh, now I understand Rubio's words, already history is being rewritten and we were given democracy by the West. We were just standing there not knowing what to do and good guys came and taught us democracy, because we never knew such a thing. You knew it. Then you lost it to the Germans and the Russians. And the Americans removed first the one then the other for you. One took much longer but your own attempt, like all small but proud democratic countries in the face of tanks, stalled. American's did not remove the Soviets. They just outlasted them, I see no reason to give them any credit for our current democracy. The Soviets wouldnt have withdrawn without the Americans or the CFE Treaty pressure.
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On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy
What did you think about the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990? Did you think the response, which eventually led to a military force invading and removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait was "trigger happy"? Did you think it was the wrong thing to do? Was it acceptable to you that Kuwait was occupied by a foreign army?
If you don't think the invasion was acceptable, and didn't think the coalition forces were too "trigger happy", then your logic is inconsistent.
Even if your logic is consistent, the argument you presented is that of humans beings who have no moral fortitude and only care for themselves. It is the argument of "well, as long as my home town isn't invaded and occupied I don't care" and "as long as it happens to someone else but not to me..."
Frankly, It is absolutely disgusting and I'm ashamed that people still think this way. What if this were your home town? What if it was you and your family, your life? Does that make a difference?
The people of Crimea deserve better. Your attitude that other people in Europe or Russia are somehow more important than those in Crimea is revolting and stinks of elitism. In fact, it is just purely elitist.
Russia invaded a sovereign country and has occupied a region there. That is unacceptable. Just like when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Totally unacceptable and the world responded then the correct way. With military force to free the people of Kuwait after a political solution was tried.
In this instance, are we scared because Russia is stronger? Or do we simply not care for those in Ukraine? Are human rights being trampled in nations other than NATO nations acceptable but because Ukraine never signed on the dotted line?
If the political solution does not work, the world must responds with force. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve it. We should not have one set of rules for this group of humans, and another set for another group of humans. That is elitism, and we are all children of the earth. There is a clear right and wrong here. What Russia did is wrong. We've got to make it right.
It is just really sad that people present the argument that you did. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve better.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
seems like by basic negotiation game theory you don't make your public position a soft one, but you'd rather try going in as hard as possible. not sure what advantages are offered by clearly indicating that you don't want war, even if you really do not want war.
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When is the non deadline deadline that may or may not begin the shooting by the Russians trying to keep peace by making sure Ukrainian soldiers are too dead to follow orders of Nazi-Fascist Junta in kiev, 2 more hours?
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On March 04 2014 09:05 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 09:01 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 08:00 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:43 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 03:40 Saumure wrote:On March 04 2014 03:20 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 03:16 Saumure wrote:lol, do you really think Russia would invade Poland or something? Putin blocked the invasion of Syria (and what would have followed) and nobody finds it strange that another riot escalates next to russia immediatly after that? Its all a Western plot, I knew it. Democracy always has such a dirty Western bias and must be prevented at all costs. Please, tell me more about how you brought democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia. How about Poland, Czehia, Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia instead?
And tell me how is democracy working out for you? Every x years (don't know where you live), you get the chance to vote for one out of two parties. Both will do basically the same thing, except for a couple of unimportant issues. You really don't get a say about anyting.
And however shitty it is, its still better than the one party, one tsar state built by Russians. Oh, now I understand Rubio's words, already history is being rewritten and we were given democracy by the West. We were just standing there not knowing what to do and good guys came and taught us democracy, because we never knew such a thing. You knew it. Then you lost it to the Germans and the Russians. And the Americans removed first the one then the other for you. One took much longer but your own attempt, like all small but proud democratic countries in the face of tanks, stalled. American's did not remove the Soviets. They just outlasted them, I see no reason to give them any credit for our current democracy. The Soviets wouldnt have withdrawn without the Americans or the CFE Treaty pressure.
Your opinion, Soviets were done anyway. Simple existence of US is not enough reason to give them credit. Any existing adversary of the Soviet Union would achieve the same without ever lifting a finger.
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On March 04 2014 08:40 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:32 Nyxisto wrote:On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy You might be surprised but there are actually steps between banning visas and the total war. Europe could at least pass meaningful economic sanctions. Sanctions at the London stock market and freezing accounts of the leadership come to mind. There is no way out, once a spiral of embargos and sanctions is started... Do it, and don't be surprised, if the whole eastern Ukraine is suddenly occupied... Well... and then suddenly the options look bad for Europe. Europe can prepare for all cases... and that is what Europe is doing right now. But cutting all ties now surely won't help to solve the issue. Those threats can be made facts, if the Russians try to make facts... Desperado politics are hardly solving any issue, when facing Russia instead of the usual small suspects... Back in 2008 Georgia made it super easy, by attacking into the Russians... Ukraine learned from it and stands still but firm. And Europe is doing it's part.
The fact that Europe is refusing to react has nothing to do with "the fear of war". The reason why Germany and the rest of the union won't break all ties with Russia is 100% economical. Russia is just too important for the EU. Crimea is not that important for most of EU countries and they will gladly give it up, if that will save their relations with Russia.
Unfortunately this kind of behaviour is what will lead us to war...
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On March 04 2014 09:08 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy What did you think about the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990? Did you think the response, which eventually led to a military force invading and removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait was "trigger happy"? Did you think it was the wrong thing to do? Was it acceptable to you that Kuwait was occupied by a foreign army? If you don't think the invasion was acceptable, and didn't think the coalition forces were too "trigger happy", then your logic is inconsistent. Even if your logic is consistent, the argument you presented is that of humans beings who have no moral fortitude and only care for themselves. It is the argument of "well, as long as my home town isn't invaded and occupied I don't care" and "as long as it happens to someone else but not to me..." Frankly, It is absolutely disgusting and I'm ashamed that people still think this way. What if this were your home town? What if it was you and your family, your life? Does that make a difference? The people of Crimea deserve better. Your attitude that other people in Europe or Russia are somehow more important than those in Crimea is revolting and stinks of elitism. In fact, it is just purely elitist. Russia invaded a sovereign country and has occupied a region there. That is unacceptable. Just like when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Totally unacceptable and the world responded then the correct way. With military force to free the people of Kuwait after a political solution was tried. In this instance, are we scared because Russia is stronger? Or do we simply not care for those in Ukraine? Are human rights being trampled in nations other than NATO nations acceptable but because Ukraine never signed on the dotted line? If the political solution does not work, the world must responds with force. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve it. We should not have one set of rules for this group of humans, and another set for another group of humans. That is elitism, and we are all children of the earth. There is a clear right and wrong here. What Russia did is wrong. We've got to make it right. It is just really sad that people present the argument that you did. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve better.
You are overreacting. It would be a very bad thing for people in the krim if a large scale war would result from this. Don't try to make it seem that would make them happy.
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On March 04 2014 09:09 oneofthem wrote:
seems like by basic negotiation game theory you don't make your public position a soft one, but you'd rather try going in as hard as possible. not sure what advantages are offered by clearly indicating that you don't want war, even if you really do not want war.
When the opponent can call your bluff easily, because then next time everybody will ignore you. Also when you are representing pacifist population it will increase your popularity.
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On March 04 2014 09:05 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Something tells me that the people in England didn't want to get bombed every night either. I don't want war, but sometimes you go to war to avoid a worse war. The politics of avoidance of war is why WW2 was so terrible. It didn't have to be that way. Letting Putin just take Crimea is a tragedy for those in Crimea and Ukraine who don't want it. And it's wrong. People already pointed out how bad analogy with 1938-9 this is.
Actually no one has presented any argument about how the analogy is wrong. Let me make it real simple though, to further the understanding of it.
Let's play a game! To make a historically accurate story, replace the parts in quotes with all letters or all numbers using the code below!
A = Hitler
B = Germany
C = Czechoslovakia
D = German
E = 1938
1 = Putin
2 = Russia
3 = Ukraine
4 = Russian
5 = 2014
(A or 1) ordered (D or 4) troops into the sovereign country of (C or 3) in March of (E or 5). His reasoning was that (D or 4) speakers and natives were being threatened and needed protection. There was no evidence for this claim. The governing body of (B or 2) then decided the annex the country.
The world sat by and discussed diplomatic options, despite militarily being stronger than (B or 2). The people of (C or 3) felt betrayed.
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On March 04 2014 09:08 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy What did you think about the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990? Did you think the response, which eventually led to a military force invading and removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait was "trigger happy"? Did you think it was the wrong thing to do? Was it acceptable to you that Kuwait was occupied by a foreign army? If you don't think the invasion was acceptable, and didn't think the coalition forces were too "trigger happy", then your logic is inconsistent. Even if your logic is consistent, the argument you presented is that of humans beings who have no moral fortitude and only care for themselves. It is the argument of "well, as long as my home town isn't invaded and occupied I don't care" and "as long as it happens to someone else but not to me..." Frankly, It is absolutely disgusting and I'm ashamed that people still think this way. What if this were your home town? What if it was you and your family, your life? Does that make a difference? The people of Crimea deserve better. Your attitude that other people in Europe or Russia are somehow more important than those in Crimea is revolting and stinks of elitism. In fact, it is just purely elitist. Russia invaded a sovereign country and has occupied a region there. That is unacceptable. Just like when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Totally unacceptable and the world responded then the correct way. With military force to free the people of Kuwait after a political solution was tried. In this instance, are we scared because Russia is stronger? Or do we simply not care for those in Ukraine? Are human rights being trampled in nations other than NATO nations acceptable but because Ukraine never signed on the dotted line? If the political solution does not work, the world must responds with force. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve it. We should not have one set of rules for this group of humans, and another set for another group of humans. That is elitism, and we are all children of the earth. There is a clear right and wrong here. What Russia did is wrong. We've got to make it right. It is just really sad that people present the argument that you did. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve better.
In all fairness, since you brought up Iraqi-Kuwait war, what about American invasion of Iraq? American government made up bogus proof and completely ignored UN's rational plea and invaded Iraq. If you are going to bring up past events where America was involved in military intervention, at least don't try not to hide the elephant in the room.
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On March 04 2014 09:15 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 09:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy What did you think about the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990? Did you think the response, which eventually led to a military force invading and removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait was "trigger happy"? Did you think it was the wrong thing to do? Was it acceptable to you that Kuwait was occupied by a foreign army? If you don't think the invasion was acceptable, and didn't think the coalition forces were too "trigger happy", then your logic is inconsistent. Even if your logic is consistent, the argument you presented is that of humans beings who have no moral fortitude and only care for themselves. It is the argument of "well, as long as my home town isn't invaded and occupied I don't care" and "as long as it happens to someone else but not to me..." Frankly, It is absolutely disgusting and I'm ashamed that people still think this way. What if this were your home town? What if it was you and your family, your life? Does that make a difference? The people of Crimea deserve better. Your attitude that other people in Europe or Russia are somehow more important than those in Crimea is revolting and stinks of elitism. In fact, it is just purely elitist. Russia invaded a sovereign country and has occupied a region there. That is unacceptable. Just like when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Totally unacceptable and the world responded then the correct way. With military force to free the people of Kuwait after a political solution was tried. In this instance, are we scared because Russia is stronger? Or do we simply not care for those in Ukraine? Are human rights being trampled in nations other than NATO nations acceptable but because Ukraine never signed on the dotted line? If the political solution does not work, the world must responds with force. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve it. We should not have one set of rules for this group of humans, and another set for another group of humans. That is elitism, and we are all children of the earth. There is a clear right and wrong here. What Russia did is wrong. We've got to make it right. It is just really sad that people present the argument that you did. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve better. You are overreacting. It would be a very bad thing for people in the krim if a large scale war would result from this. Don't try to make it seem that would make them happy.
Yeah, it'd be terrible to free people from a military occupation and defend their freedom if it means war. Better have peace, and let them be slaves.
On March 04 2014 09:16 zeonmx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 09:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 04 2014 08:29 mahrgell wrote:On March 04 2014 08:27 Cheerio wrote:On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic. Right, that's why all kinds of concessions need to be made to local dictators. I think it is for the better of Ukraine, if there is no war between Europe and Russia So better be thankful, that not everyone on the world is that triggerhappy What did you think about the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990? Did you think the response, which eventually led to a military force invading and removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait was "trigger happy"? Did you think it was the wrong thing to do? Was it acceptable to you that Kuwait was occupied by a foreign army? If you don't think the invasion was acceptable, and didn't think the coalition forces were too "trigger happy", then your logic is inconsistent. Even if your logic is consistent, the argument you presented is that of humans beings who have no moral fortitude and only care for themselves. It is the argument of "well, as long as my home town isn't invaded and occupied I don't care" and "as long as it happens to someone else but not to me..." Frankly, It is absolutely disgusting and I'm ashamed that people still think this way. What if this were your home town? What if it was you and your family, your life? Does that make a difference? The people of Crimea deserve better. Your attitude that other people in Europe or Russia are somehow more important than those in Crimea is revolting and stinks of elitism. In fact, it is just purely elitist. Russia invaded a sovereign country and has occupied a region there. That is unacceptable. Just like when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Totally unacceptable and the world responded then the correct way. With military force to free the people of Kuwait after a political solution was tried. In this instance, are we scared because Russia is stronger? Or do we simply not care for those in Ukraine? Are human rights being trampled in nations other than NATO nations acceptable but because Ukraine never signed on the dotted line? If the political solution does not work, the world must responds with force. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve it. We should not have one set of rules for this group of humans, and another set for another group of humans. That is elitism, and we are all children of the earth. There is a clear right and wrong here. What Russia did is wrong. We've got to make it right. It is just really sad that people present the argument that you did. The people of Crimea and Ukraine deserve better. In all fairness, since you brought up Iraqi-Kuwait war, what about American invasion of Iraq? American government made up bogus proof and completely ignored UN's rational plea and invaded Iraq.
The US invasion was terrible and a joke. I'm ashamed the US did that and I stood against it. Still, it doesn't mean Russia can do this.
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On March 04 2014 08:06 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 03:50 BronzeKnee wrote:Confirmed: Anyone leading Great Britain with the last name Chamberlain has no backbone. European leaders are doing exactly what their populations want from them, which definitely is not a war. Democracy in action. US will do exactly the same. Few warmongering fanatics that never experienced war, yet would love to plunge the continent in it are just pathetic.
In theory (aka an idealistic perfect-er world) having elected leaders should be so they can make the decisions that are right in the long run, not the ones that we want. Otherwise it would just be rule by the mob.
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EPT
