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On November 09 2013 01:11 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 00:47 dogmode wrote:
sexy clothes does not equal consent. period. its not even a .000000000000000000011% increase in consent Of course sexy clothes don't equal consent. And consent is a yes/no thing; there's very little possibility of gray area. The issue comes when we (a third party who was not involved) are trying to determine after the fact whether a sex act was consensual or not. When both participants agree it was consensual, that's that -- it's consensual, go home. When both participants agree it was rape, well, obviously it was rape. (And if one person argues it was rape and the other argues that sex didn't happen, if you can prove that sex happened, you can reasonably conclude it was rape.) Trouble comes in when one person claims rape and the other claims consensual sex. Unless there were witnesses (other than the accuser and the defendant, since they contradict each other), how do we determine which claim is true? You could argue that, since we can't know, the defendant should always be acquitted. Innocent until proven guilty, right? It's the accuser/prosecutor's job to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. (This is not a popular argument.)
Innocent until proven guilty is not a truism in all countries.
However, if sex happened, and one person says they did not consent, it doesn't matter if the other party consented since that victim did not consent.
If the accused felt that "she wanted it" it does not mean that she did. He does not know what she wanted and he cannot consent for her.
If you are arguing that the accuser is lying to you, then you are accusing them of slander. If you accuse someone of slander you need to have evidence that they are attempting to slander your name. FYI, them wearing a dress does not prove that they are performing slander.
Rape should be very simple.
Did sex happen?
Did one or more parties not consent?
Done.
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On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape
Such a culture has never existed.
Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed.
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On November 09 2013 01:26 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape Such a culture has never existed. Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed.
dont ignore me!
or at least "Let me know which part you disagree with."
-You suggested i take a statistics course. And shut the fuck up
-You quoted statistics to prove your point
-You got served
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On November 09 2013 01:26 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape Such a culture has never existed. Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed.
Certainly there are cultures where rape is permissable or excusable under the right circumstances. Rape against women has been used as a weapon of war in many conflicts of the recent past. There are several cultures in existance today where a man may rape his wife at will.
I'm sure many posters will argue for the existance of rape culture in contemporary western society as well, but I can't personally be bothered.
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Netherlands6191 Posts
His point being that if a woman wanted absolutely no attention she wouldn't wear provocative clothing. A foreign woman going to a flea-market in Southern Africa, for example, would not wear a miniskirt and high heels and a top that exposes cleavage/midrift. She would wear something to avoid drawing attention.
If she was going to a nightclub where she did want to attract some attention, she would be more likely to wear sexy get-up. Make-up, heels, skin baring clothing, etc.
It does not mean she is going out looking for sex, by any means. But she is looking for attention. And women are quite well aware that exposing skin causes sexual reactions.
One does not dress provocatively and not expect to receive sexual interest.
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On November 09 2013 01:39 draverjai wrote:
His point being that if a woman wanted absolutely no attention she wouldn't wear provocative clothing. A foreign woman going to a flea-market in Southern Africa, for example, would not wear a miniskirt and high heels and a top that exposes cleavage/midrift. She would wear something to avoid drawing attention.
If she was going to a nightclub where she did want to attract some attention, she would be more likely to wear sexy get-up. Make-up, heels, skin baring clothing, etc.
It does not mean she is going out looking for sex, by any means. But she is looking for attention. And women are quite well aware that exposing skin causes sexual reactions.
One does not dress provocatively and not expect to receive sexual interest.
And why is this relevant?
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so.... how is that related to rape at all....
EDIT: damn, ninja'd
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Yeah, the point is that "looking for attention" in no way equates with any form of culpability.
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Netherlands6191 Posts
Previous page discussion. I post too slowly. The argument about women dressing to provoke rape.
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For those of you wondering what college attend, I go to UC Davis in Davis, California
I am conflicted about the statistic that only 40% of rapes get reported to Police and a small percentage of those reports turn out to be false. Rape is supposed to be the worst thing that can ever happen to a women but only about 1/3 of all assaults ever get reported to police? In other circumstances, the rape victim will bring a case to trial then choose to drop the rape charges against the defendant allowing the alleged rapist to go free (i.e. the Kobe Bryant case) I cant really grasp the psychology behind this. I mean much more than 40% of all murders get reported to police and murder trails rarely get dropped in the middle of litigation.
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On November 09 2013 01:43 draverjai wrote:
Previous page discussion. I post too slowly. The argument about women dressing to provoke rape.
Yes my question is how does dressing up sexy to get attention have anything to do with provoking rape.
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On November 09 2013 01:43 draverjai wrote:
Previous page discussion. I post too slowly. The argument about women dressing to provoke rape.
Nobody is dressing to provoke rape.
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The woman in the Kobe case got paid hella money, that's pretty simple psychology lol.
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On November 09 2013 01:39 draverjai wrote:
His point being that if a woman wanted absolutely no attention she wouldn't wear provocative clothing. A foreign woman going to a flea-market in Southern Africa, for example, would not wear a miniskirt and high heels and a top that exposes cleavage/midrift. She would wear something to avoid drawing attention.
If she was going to a nightclub where she did want to attract some attention, she would be more likely to wear sexy get-up. Make-up, heels, skin baring clothing, etc.
It does not mean she is going out looking for sex, by any means. But she is looking for attention. And women are quite well aware that exposing skin causes sexual reactions.
One does not dress provocatively and not expect to receive sexual interest.
i guess women only wear clothes for the sole reason of attracting attention. not because they like it or its pretty or it feels nice or its sexy. i guess when women wears clothes they wear it primarily thinking about how other people will react to it and not because of personal preference. /sarcasm
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Netherlands6191 Posts
Exactly. No one is dressing to provoke rape. It wouldn't be rape if you wanted it. But if you don't want sexual attention you don't dress in a manner that attracts it. I am agreeing that if you are going to go to a dodgy area and dress like that it is unsafe.
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On November 09 2013 01:26 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape Such a culture has never existed. Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed.
So the west isn't a culture where men are expected to always want to fuck women and women are expected to not always mean it when they say no/"playing hard to get"?
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On November 09 2013 01:36 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 01:26 gedatsu wrote:On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape Such a culture has never existed. Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed. Certainly there are cultures where rape is permissable or excusable under the right circumstances. Rape against women has been used as a weapon of war in many conflicts of the recent past. There are several cultures in existance today where a man may rape his wife at will. I'm sure many posters will argue for the existance of rape culture in contemporary western society as well, but I can't personally be bothered.
That's like saying there are "theft cultures" because governments levy taxes against some people's wishes. A man may never legally rape his wife at will, because in those places, it is not considered rape. There are several definitions of the term and not everybody agrees with yours.
Yeah, people do horrible stuff in warzones, because in warzones there are no rules. They are not exactly operating within a culture, they are doing whatever the fuck they normally cannot do.
On November 09 2013 01:29 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 01:26 gedatsu wrote:On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape Such a culture has never existed. Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed. dont ignore me! or at least "Let me know which part you disagree with." -You suggested i take a statistics course. And shut the fuck up -You quoted statistics to prove your point -You got served
Severedevil already dealt with you.
On November 09 2013 01:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 01:26 gedatsu wrote:On November 09 2013 01:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:
a culture that supports rape Such a culture has never existed. Or, well, a culture that supports rape against women has never existed. So the west isn't a culture where men are expected to always want to fuck women and women are expected to not always mean it when they say no/"playing hard to get"?
Sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with supporting rape.
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On November 09 2013 01:48 draverjai wrote:
Exactly. No one is dressing to provoke rape. It wouldn't be rape if you wanted it. But if you don't want sexual attention you don't dress in a manner that attracts it. I am agreeing that if you are going to go to a dodgy area and dress like that it is unsafe.
all i really want to say is rape is wrong. sex should always be consensual. a woman's dress, sexual history, appearance, etc should never be considered as implied consent to intercourse or as basis for arguments that basically states "you may say no but your ______ says yes" argument.
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Wait, you don't think a culture that tells men to go after women and that tells women that no doesn't always mean no is not rape culture?
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Lol Gedatsu, why wuss out now? Your blame the victim stupidity is already on display and it's a Friday, whaddya got to lose? I'm curious, do you have exposure to case law on rape and the success of defenses that revolve around a characterization of the victim as "wanting it" in one way or another, or are you just making this up as you go along?
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EPT
