EPTOn March 01 2014 09:06 Flaccid wrote:
I hope St.Louis wins the cup this year. About time they won something.
I hope St.Louis wins the cup this year. About time they won something.
This is a horrible trade for St. Louis.
The 2014 NHL Season - Two Accounts, No Cups - Page 109
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Thallis
United States314 Posts
This is a horrible trade for St. Louis. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
17 shots, 3 goals, against Buffalo. Pathetic. Shark fans better hope that Stalock kid is ready for the playoffs. So god damn inconsistent. 2/28 @Buf 0 3 16 .842 2/27 @Phi - - - - 2/7 Cls 1 2 19 .905 2/5 Dal - - - - 2/3 Phi 0 4 19 .826 2/1 Chi 1 1 29 .967 1/30 @Cgy - - - - 1/29 @Edm 0 3 24 .889 1/27 LA - - - - 1/25 Min 1 2 20 .909 1/23 Wpg - - - - 1/20 Cgy 1 2 21 .913 1/18 @TB 1 4 25 .862 | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
How? What did they lose here? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 01 2014 10:06 GolemMadness wrote: A 3rd liner that's 4.15 million a year, a decent goalie who may or may not stick around, a mediocre prospect, a pick in the late 20's and a 3rd round pick. Unless Chris Stewart recovers his 2010 form, they didn't really get a whole lot. In addition to the 2015 1st round pick, there is a conditional first round pick this year if STL reaches the conference finals or Miller resigns. Considering Miller and Ott are UFA's, I think it was a decent return. It's actually not out of the question that Ott resigns in Buffalo at season end, but I guess we will have to wait and see. | ||
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Thallis
United States314 Posts
A ton of reasons. First, this is an unprecedented return for a goalie. A rental goalie at that, who the team will not be able to resign. They gave up their current starter, first round pick, and a top prospect (One of the teams 3 with actual top 6 upside) for a guy who has been average for 3 out of every 4 years in his career. It is actually horrible for the Blues to re-sign Miller, who has indicated he's looking for a Lundqvist type deal. The Blues simply can't afford that, especially when he's 33 years old and has been worse when facing lower shot count than higher over his career. Now, if the Blues make the WCF, which was certainly possible before the trade considering they have yet to lose to a central team (who they will play in the first tow rounds), they give up another first round pick. So that would make Halak, Carrier, 2014 1st, & 2015 1st for Ryan Miller, a goalie who's never had playoff success, and has only been above average on Olympic years. That is more than Boston got for Phil Kessel (at the time of the trade at least). This is all ignoring the fact that they add a 3rd round pick to downgrade from Chris Stewart to Steve Ott, who shouldn't be able to crack the top 9 of this team when healthy. This was horrendously bad asset management that can only be topped if Armstrong gives Miller the deal he wants over the summer, which will be a long term contract for top dollar, which will make it almost impossible for Jake Allen to step in in the coming years (which he will likely be able to do as soon as 2016). | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On March 01 2014 11:54 Thallis wrote: A ton of reasons. First, this is an unprecedented return for a goalie. A rental goalie at that, who the team will not be able to resign. They gave up their current starter, first round pick, and a top prospect (One of the teams 3 with actual top 6 upside) for a guy who has been average for 3 out of every 4 years in his career. It is actually horrible for the Blues to re-sign Miller, who has indicated he's looking for a Lundqvist type deal. The Blues simply can't afford that, especially when he's 33 years old and has been worse when facing lower shot count than higher over his career. Now, if the Blues make the WCF, which was certainly possible before the trade considering they have yet to lose to a central team (who they will play in the first tow rounds), they give up another first round pick. So that would make Halak, Carrier, 2014 1st, & 2015 1st for Ryan Miller, a goalie who's never had playoff success, and has only been above average on Olympic years. That is more than Boston got for Phil Kessel (at the time of the trade at least). This is all ignoring the fact that they add a 3rd round pick to downgrade from Chris Stewart to Steve Ott, who shouldn't be able to crack the top 9 of this team when healthy. This was horrendously bad asset management that can only be topped if Armstrong gives Miller the deal he wants over the summer, which will be a long term contract for top dollar, which will make it almost impossible for Jake Allen to step in in the coming years (which he will likely be able to do as soon as 2016). First of all, Halak is a UFA as well, so acting like they're giving up their starting goalie for some rental is ridiculous. They traded a UFA goalie for a better UFA goalie. Secondly, Carrier isn't a top prospect. He's a decent prospect, of which St. Louis has plenty. They gave up Chris Stewart, who wasn't playing a lot of minutes and was invisible against playoff teams (20% of his points come from two games against Edmonton). Steve Ott at least is good at faceoffs, can penalty kill and fills a pest role. Chris Stewart did nothing, and cost more. If anything, I'd say that this is an upgrade for St. Louis. Boston got significantly more for Kessel. A #2 and #9 overall pick? The #2 pick alone is worth both the 1st round picks St. Louis will give up. They want to win a Stanley Cup this year, and with an elite goalie like Miller they have a very good chance to do so, and with Chris Stewart's $4.15 million contract gone, they'll be in a good place to resign him as well. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On March 01 2014 11:13 Sub40APM wrote: San Jose should have traded for Miller. Jesus Christ Anti Niemie is Emperor Sieve over here. 17 shots, 3 goals, against Buffalo. Pathetic. Shark fans better hope that Stalock kid is ready for the playoffs. So god damn inconsistent. 2/28 @Buf 0 3 16 .842 2/27 @Phi - - - - 2/7 Cls 1 2 19 .905 2/5 Dal - - - - 2/3 Phi 0 4 19 .826 2/1 Chi 1 1 29 .967 1/30 @Cgy - - - - 1/29 @Edm 0 3 24 .889 1/27 LA - - - - 1/25 Min 1 2 20 .909 1/23 Wpg - - - - 1/20 Cgy 1 2 21 .913 1/18 @TB 1 4 25 .862 Yeah, Niemi hasn't been good, which is why Stalock has been in net more often recently. Fortunately, Stalock has been pretty good in net. | ||
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Thallis
United States314 Posts
On March 01 2014 12:27 GolemMadness wrote: First of all, Halak is a UFA as well, so acting like they're giving up their starting goalie for some rental is ridiculous. They traded a UFA goalie for a better UFA goalie. Secondly, Carrier isn't a top prospect. He's a decent prospect, of which St. Louis has plenty. They gave up Chris Stewart, who wasn't playing a lot of minutes and was invisible against playoff teams (20% of his points come from two games against Edmonton). Steve Ott at least is good at faceoffs, can penalty kill and fills a pest role. Chris Stewart did nothing, and cost more. If anything, I'd say that this is an upgrade for St. Louis. Boston got significantly more for Kessel. A #2 and #9 overall pick? The #2 pick alone is worth both the 1st round picks St. Louis will give up. They want to win a Stanley Cup this year, and with an elite goalie like Miller they have a very good chance to do so, and with Chris Stewart's $4.15 million contract gone, they'll be in a good place to resign him as well. I usually am ignoring Halak when talking about this, but he did have enough value that you can't not mention him. I said all of that with that in mind. Carrier is one of 3 forward prospects in the Blues' system that has any offensive upside. The Blues are still a budget team, meaning that they rely on young, cost controlled assets to step in and fill a role. They simply need these types of players in their system. Those picks that they traded have been how they've been getting young talent. The Blues have gone through so many periods of overpaying for a rental and having it blow up in their faces, adopting that philosophy is why the team is as good as it's ever been.This move could have huge long term repercussions. Kessel was traded for 2 1sts and a second. These picks were complete unknowns at the time and were generally thought to be in the 10-20 range. Higher value than 20-30 range expected for these picks sure, but the return is much lower. This is far more than what they gave for Bouwmeester, who actually had other teams interested and willing to pay for, and was a much bigger need for the franchise. St. Louis needs their players to score in the playoffs or get someone who can, goaltending hasn't been an issue. Despite his play, Stewart isn't a bad player. He's a horrible fit for St. Louis because their offense relies on the cycle. Stewart is a much more natural shooter and needs an offense that relies on the rush with a solid play maker he's also still a younger guy who has scored 28 twice and had another year where he paced for 30 goals (last season). There seem to be other teams interested in him to. Ott doesn't help the Blues at all, Stewart occasionally goes on a hot streak and scores in bunches and goes quiet again. I just don't understand how any aspect of this trade can be looked at as favoring the Blues. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On March 01 2014 14:06 Thallis wrote: I usually am ignoring Halak when talking about this, but he did have enough value that you can't not mention him. I said all of that with that in mind. Carrier is one of 3 forward prospects in the Blues' system that has any offensive upside. The Blues are still a budget team, meaning that they rely on young, cost controlled assets to step in and fill a role. They simply need these types of players in their system. Those picks that they traded have been how they've been getting young talent. The Blues have gone through so many periods of overpaying for a rental and having it blow up in their faces, adopting that philosophy is why the team is as good as it's ever been.This move could have huge long term repercussions. Kessel was traded for 2 1sts and a second. These picks were complete unknowns at the time and were generally thought to be in the 10-20 range. Higher value than 20-30 range expected for these picks sure, but the return is much lower. This is far more than what they gave for Bouwmeester, who actually had other teams interested and willing to pay for, and was a much bigger need for the franchise. St. Louis needs their players to score in the playoffs or get someone who can, goaltending hasn't been an issue. Despite his play, Stewart isn't a bad player. He's a horrible fit for St. Louis because their offense relies on the cycle. Stewart is a much more natural shooter and needs an offense that relies on the rush with a solid play maker he's also still a younger guy who has scored 28 twice and had another year where he paced for 30 goals (last season). There seem to be other teams interested in him to. Ott doesn't help the Blues at all, Stewart occasionally goes on a hot streak and scores in bunches and goes quiet again. I just don't understand how any aspect of this trade can be looked at as favoring the Blues. Yes, Carrier has potential offensive upside, but calling him a top prospect is pushing it. Yeah, in 5 years he may be a top 6 forward, but St. Louis has one of the best teams in the league right now and they're trying to win a Stanley Cup. Are they really going to do that with Halak in net? Toronto had just come 24th in the league the two years prior. 10-20 range is a huge exaggeration. Incidentally, St. Louis is not giving up two 1st rounders here; they're giving up one 1st rounder and one 3rd rounder. If they resign Miller or make the conference finals, all that happens is that they give up their 2014 1st round pick instead of their 2015 pick. Given their current pace and increase in strength, it'll likely be something like the 29th pick. I don't know where you're getting that Chris Stewart has scored 28 goals twice before. He got 28 goals once, and his next highest was 18. The fact is that he was doing nothing to help out St. Louis, and was their 3rd most expensive forward. You say yourself that he was a horrible fit on St. Louis, so what are you complaining about here? | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Awful trade for St Louis. They traded their only consistent offensive threat with any history for Ott, and barely upgraded their goaltending. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote: Incidentally, St. Louis is not giving up two 1st rounders here; they're giving up one 1st rounder and one 3rd rounder. If they resign Miller or make the conference finals, all that happens is that they give up their 2014 1st round pick instead of their 2015 pick. Given their current pace and increase in strength, it'll likely be something like the 29th pick. Are you sure about that one? Everything that I've heard seems to indicate that the conditional 2016 3rd rounder would turn into a 2014 first rounder, in addition to the 2015 first round pick. Also, I'm pretty sure you're overlooking the fact that Stewart played for Col and Stl in 2010 and reached 28 goals total that year as well. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 01 2014 16:31 iCanada wrote: They traded their only consistent offensive threat with any history for Ott, and barely upgraded their goaltending. I am not really sure that Stewart is that. He always had the potential for it but with the style the Blues play he wasnt a threat to anyone on the third line. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On March 01 2014 16:34 kitaman27 wrote: Are you sure about that one? Everything that I've heard seems to indicate that the conditional 2016 3rd rounder would turn into a 2014 first rounder, in addition to the 2015 first round pick. Also, I'm pretty sure you're overlooking the fact that Stewart played for Col and Stl in 2010 and reached 28 goals total that year as well. My mistake, the wording on NHL.com was kind of confusing. The trade years for stats always slip me up... Still though, that was 3 years ago. He just hasn't been a consistent presence on St. Louis, and has been completely invisible this year. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On March 01 2014 16:31 iCanada wrote: I honeslty think St. Louis got jobbed by Buffalo. Awful trade for St Louis. They traded their only consistent offensive threat with any history for Ott, and barely upgraded their goaltending. Their only consistent offensive threat is their 10th leading scorer who has 20% of his points this season in 2 games against Edmonton? Really? And Miller is a significant upgrade over Halak. Halak's stats are barely better than Miller's this season. Halak played on a team with one of the best defense in the league that's coached by Ken Hitchock. Miller played on the worst team in the league. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 01 2014 17:17 Sub40APM wrote: I am not really sure that Stewart is that. He always had the potential for it but with the style the Blues play he wasnt a threat to anyone on the third line. Hes the only guy on their whole team who has consistently scored more than 20 goals. Literally the entire blues forwards core this year is producing at like +10 goals from where they normally produce. Most of their shooting percentages are also way way up (like 5%) which is pretty unsustainable long term. Meanwhile, Stewarts Shooting Percentage has gone way down this year from his norm. Stewart is the best piece in this deal, and the Blues need more game breaking scoring talent, not less. Even if Stewart is having an of night, he can come out of no where and score from anywhere. Ott brings "toughness" and thats about it in the comparison between the two. Especially with Stl's center depth I'd rather have Stewart. Stewart stronger, better on the boards, better in his own end, hell he is even a better fighter. All Ott does is throw more hits. Meanwhile, while Miller is great, I think his style of play does a lot better when he is getting a lot of shots. Lots of the "elite' goaltenders play that way. Hell, look at Price at the Olympics, all goals allowed were relatively weak routine saves that just kind of found a hole because Price didn't get near as many touches as he was used to. He is a clear upgrade, sure, but I dont think it will be as profound a change as many believe. Regardless, First round picks is a huuge price to pay even if they were getting big upgrades, which, imo, they really are not. And thats entirely disregarding Carrier, as I have no idea who the guy is. This is a club that lost a bunch of 1 goal games to the Kings last year in the playoffs, a team that couldn't score. This is not a team that can give away its only 1-shot scorer for a marginal upgrade in a position of strength while paying out the ass for futures. I think the Blues got robbed. | ||
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Thallis
United States314 Posts
On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote: Yes, Carrier has potential offensive upside, but calling him a top prospect is pushing it. Yeah, in 5 years he may be a top 6 forward, but St. Louis has one of the best teams in the league right now and they're trying to win a Stanley Cup. Are they really going to do that with Halak in net? He's a top prospect within the organization, which is what really matters.St. Louis is a team with money problems and cannot afford to trade away a chance at a young impact player, that was how this team is built and is likely the only way to sustain this success. The Blues could have easily won with Halak or Elliott in net, the same way Chicago won with Crawford, Philadelphia got to the finals with Leighton/ Boucher, Detroit winning with Osgood, Pittsburgh winning with MAF. Incidentally, the Blues had a wieghted 20% chance at winning the cup with Halak and Elliott, and this trade doesn't address the real issues the team has. They still need a #1 center they can lean on for scoring in the playoffs, and just traded away most of their ammunition that could be used to get that. On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote:Toronto had just come 24th in the league the two years prior. 10-20 range is a huge exaggeration. Incidentally, St. Louis is not giving up two 1st rounders here; they're giving up one 1st rounder and one 3rd rounder. If they resign Miller or make the conference finals, all that happens is that they give up their 2014 1st round pick instead of their 2015 pick. Given their current pace and increase in strength, it'll likely be something like the 29th pick. 10-20 is clearly where Burke thought those picks were going to be. He thought his defense was strong, and adding a scorer like Kessel would push them into playoff contention. Before that season began, most people agreed. That is why he used draft picks only. Burke was wrong and paid for a risk he took. The condition is on the 3rd to become the 2014 first if the Blues reach the WCF or Miller re-signs. Making the WCF was something that was more than reasonable before Miller, and the real thing that worries most around the Blues is if they're going to be able to score in the playoffs. This trade hurts the Blues towards achieving that. This move could also be an indication that the ownership needs a Stanley Cup this season, and as a budget team that has had trouble filling up the seats despite having some of the lowest ticket prices in the league with one of their best teams ever, if they don't get it, they could be in a lot of financial trouble. The owners have said that they're not worried about the money, but resigning Miller could have huge implications on their ability to keep Shattenkirk, Schwartz, or Tarasenko, who are all far more important than Miller moving forward. The Blues have never been set up this well for a let down as they are now, and there are now big consequences if they follow through in true Blues fashion. On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote:I don't know where you're getting that Chris Stewart has scored 28 goals twice before. He got 28 goals once, and his next highest was 18. The fact is that he was doing nothing to help out St. Louis, and was their 3rd most expensive forward. You say yourself that he was a horrible fit on St. Louis, so what are you complaining about here? He's a horrible fit, but he obviously has value. He was pretty good last season during the lockout. Teams around the league are still interested in him. He could have been used (or added to with one or more of those picks) to add a young player who actually helps the Blues like a Mika Zibanejad or a pick. Instead they got another gritty depth forward in Ott, when they already have Reaves, Lappiere, Sobotka, Morrow, Backes and Oshie. That is simply extremely poor asset management. | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
no wonder enrollment is way up! its of course no accident that USA Hockey's biggest success in the past 30+ years came under the stewardship of one Brian Burke. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
that being said, I still do not care for this trade that much frm st. louis' perspective. Stewart may not have been a great fit because he needs top minutes to produce and needs an offense that relies off the rush more, but i feel having a guy who has topped 25g twice and was on pace for it once more is more valuable than a goalie who is marginally better than your starter. miller's reputation exists entirely because of his one really good season, 2010 olympics and this year, but the fact is that he has always been a slightly above average goalie who can occasionally good hockey for some stretches. The only thing he has going for him over halak is that he's probably a bit more consistent, and when he's hot his peak is higher. is he better than Halak? Yeah. Is the difference between the two worth coughing up a guy your depth scoring (, a decent nhl prospect, a first and potentially a second first if they make the conference finals? I definitely do not think so, and with how much they gave up in this trade, the only way they win it is if they win the Cup. Steve Ott is a really solid piece for most contenders, but St Louis relies more on scoring by committee than it does having one or two guys generating 40% of the offense. Chris Stewart is worth way more to their franchise, even if he isn't in a starring role. And it's not like STL was lacking a bottom six guy who is good on draws and good in his own end. Svobotka has a 60% goddamn faceoff rate. I would like the trade a lot more for STL if they coughed up the picks and kept Stewart. Ott is pretty redundant on a team that has guys like Svobotka, Lappy, Morrow and other dudes who can soak up tough zone starts without fucking up. | ||
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Flaccid
8898 Posts
On March 02 2014 05:02 QuanticHawk wrote: that being said, I still do not care for this trade that much frm st. louis' perspective. Stewart may not have been a great fit because he needs top minutes to produce and needs an offense that relies off the rush more, but i feel having a guy who has topped 25g twice and was on pace for it once more is more valuable than a goalie who is marginally better than your starter. miller's reputation exists entirely because of his one really good season, 2010 olympics and this year, but the fact is that he has always been a slightly above average goalie who can occasionally good hockey for some stretches. The only thing he has going for him over halak is that he's probably a bit more consistent, and when he's hot his peak is higher. is he better than Halak? Yeah. Is the difference between the two worth coughing up a guy your depth scoring (, a decent nhl prospect, a first and potentially a second first if they make the conference finals? I definitely do not think so, and with how much they gave up in this trade, the only way they win it is if they win the Cup. Steve Ott is a really solid piece for most contenders, but St Louis relies more on scoring by committee than it does having one or two guys generating 40% of the offense. Chris Stewart is worth way more to their franchise, even if he isn't in a starring role. And it's not like STL was lacking a bottom six guy who is good on draws and good in his own end. Svobotka has a 60% goddamn faceoff rate. I would like the trade a lot more for STL if they coughed up the picks and kept Stewart. Ott is pretty redundant on a team that has guys like Svobotka, Lappy, Morrow and other dudes who can soak up tough zone starts without fucking up. Hard to argue with any of that. I don't think anyone would suggest that this trade makes St.Louis a better team in the long term - but I also doubt anyone would say that St.Louis is concerned with being better in the long term. They clearly think that this year represents a good chance for them to win a championship and this trade makes them a better playoff team - where consistent goaltending is so important. Losing Stewart blows especially when you consider that they already lost Perron in order to obtain a guy who is most useful at keeping their press-box occupied. I would guess that they wanted Paajarvi to be a part of this trade and perhaps he could have been had his stock not fallen to RIM levels of attractiveness. Maybe a 2012-2013 Paajarvi would get this trade accomplished without the loss of Stewart. Oh well, none of that matters. Personally, I feel that draft picks, especially those outside of the top 4 or 5, are vastly overrated. Hell, I cheer for a team that farms first-overalls and they are still garbage. GMs pay a lot for potential because they think they are smart but it's not entirely common for a late-round pick (even in the first round) to be a big win. There are infinitely more Colton Teuberts than Jordan Eberles. Back to Miller. He's not Rask or Lundqvist but he has been one of the most consistent goaltenders of the decade. Possibly the only guy with more consistency in the league with a comparable length of service is Hank. Maybe a few more. You don't always need superhuman goaltending to win a championship, but you do need consistency. Sometimes you get it from unlikely sources (Crawford, Osgood), and sometimes you're a very good team who can't get it when you need it (lolfleury). St.Louis is trying to win now and for that they have leveraged a part of their future. Teams do that all of the time and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If I'm a St.Louis fan, I'm happy with this trade because I don't care if my team is moderately competitive for the next 5 years. I want them to win a goddamn cup for the first time in the history of their franchise and that's all I care about. | ||
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