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On March 02 2014 11:03 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 22:39 Thallis wrote:On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote:On March 01 2014 14:06 Thallis wrote:On March 01 2014 12:27 GolemMadness wrote:On March 01 2014 11:54 Thallis wrote:On March 01 2014 11:22 GolemMadness wrote:On March 01 2014 11:10 Thallis wrote:On March 01 2014 09:06 Flaccid wrote:
I hope St.Louis wins the cup this year. About time they won something. This is a horrible trade for St. Louis. How? What did they lose here? A ton of reasons. First, this is an unprecedented return for a goalie. A rental goalie at that, who the team will not be able to resign. They gave up their current starter, first round pick, and a top prospect (One of the teams 3 with actual top 6 upside) for a guy who has been average for 3 out of every 4 years in his career. It is actually horrible for the Blues to re-sign Miller, who has indicated he's looking for a Lundqvist type deal. The Blues simply can't afford that, especially when he's 33 years old and has been worse when facing lower shot count than higher over his career. Now, if the Blues make the WCF, which was certainly possible before the trade considering they have yet to lose to a central team (who they will play in the first tow rounds), they give up another first round pick. So that would make Halak, Carrier, 2014 1st, & 2015 1st for Ryan Miller, a goalie who's never had playoff success, and has only been above average on Olympic years. That is more than Boston got for Phil Kessel (at the time of the trade at least). This is all ignoring the fact that they add a 3rd round pick to downgrade from Chris Stewart to Steve Ott, who shouldn't be able to crack the top 9 of this team when healthy. This was horrendously bad asset management that can only be topped if Armstrong gives Miller the deal he wants over the summer, which will be a long term contract for top dollar, which will make it almost impossible for Jake Allen to step in in the coming years (which he will likely be able to do as soon as 2016). First of all, Halak is a UFA as well, so acting like they're giving up their starting goalie for some rental is ridiculous. They traded a UFA goalie for a better UFA goalie. Secondly, Carrier isn't a top prospect. He's a decent prospect, of which St. Louis has plenty. They gave up Chris Stewart, who wasn't playing a lot of minutes and was invisible against playoff teams (20% of his points come from two games against Edmonton). Steve Ott at least is good at faceoffs, can penalty kill and fills a pest role. Chris Stewart did nothing, and cost more. If anything, I'd say that this is an upgrade for St. Louis. Boston got significantly more for Kessel. A #2 and #9 overall pick? The #2 pick alone is worth both the 1st round picks St. Louis will give up. They want to win a Stanley Cup this year, and with an elite goalie like Miller they have a very good chance to do so, and with Chris Stewart's $4.15 million contract gone, they'll be in a good place to resign him as well. I usually am ignoring Halak when talking about this, but he did have enough value that you can't not mention him. I said all of that with that in mind. Carrier is one of 3 forward prospects in the Blues' system that has any offensive upside. The Blues are still a budget team, meaning that they rely on young, cost controlled assets to step in and fill a role. They simply need these types of players in their system. Those picks that they traded have been how they've been getting young talent. The Blues have gone through so many periods of overpaying for a rental and having it blow up in their faces, adopting that philosophy is why the team is as good as it's ever been.This move could have huge long term repercussions. Kessel was traded for 2 1sts and a second. These picks were complete unknowns at the time and were generally thought to be in the 10-20 range. Higher value than 20-30 range expected for these picks sure, but the return is much lower. This is far more than what they gave for Bouwmeester, who actually had other teams interested and willing to pay for, and was a much bigger need for the franchise. St. Louis needs their players to score in the playoffs or get someone who can, goaltending hasn't been an issue. Despite his play, Stewart isn't a bad player. He's a horrible fit for St. Louis because their offense relies on the cycle. Stewart is a much more natural shooter and needs an offense that relies on the rush with a solid play maker he's also still a younger guy who has scored 28 twice and had another year where he paced for 30 goals (last season). There seem to be other teams interested in him to. Ott doesn't help the Blues at all, Stewart occasionally goes on a hot streak and scores in bunches and goes quiet again. I just don't understand how any aspect of this trade can be looked at as favoring the Blues. Yes, Carrier has potential offensive upside, but calling him a top prospect is pushing it. Yeah, in 5 years he may be a top 6 forward, but St. Louis has one of the best teams in the league right now and they're trying to win a Stanley Cup. Are they really going to do that with Halak in net? He's a top prospect within the organization, which is what really matters.St. Louis is a team with money problems and cannot afford to trade away a chance at a young impact player, that was how this team is built and is likely the only way to sustain this success. The Blues could have easily won with Halak or Elliott in net, the same way Chicago won with Crawford, Philadelphia got to the finals with Leighton/ Boucher, Detroit winning with Osgood, Pittsburgh winning with MAF. Incidentally, the Blues had a wieghted 20% chance at winning the cup with Halak and Elliott, and this trade doesn't address the real issues the team has. They still need a #1 center they can lean on for scoring in the playoffs, and just traded away most of their ammunition that could be used to get that. On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote:Toronto had just come 24th in the league the two years prior. 10-20 range is a huge exaggeration. Incidentally, St. Louis is not giving up two 1st rounders here; they're giving up one 1st rounder and one 3rd rounder. If they resign Miller or make the conference finals, all that happens is that they give up their 2014 1st round pick instead of their 2015 pick. Given their current pace and increase in strength, it'll likely be something like the 29th pick. 10-20 is clearly where Burke thought those picks were going to be. He thought his defense was strong, and adding a scorer like Kessel would push them into playoff contention. Before that season began, most people agreed. That is why he used draft picks only. Burke was wrong and paid for a risk he took. The condition is on the 3rd to become the 2014 first if the Blues reach the WCF or Miller re-signs. Making the WCF was something that was more than reasonable before Miller, and the real thing that worries most around the Blues is if they're going to be able to score in the playoffs. This trade hurts the Blues towards achieving that. This move could also be an indication that the ownership needs a Stanley Cup this season, and as a budget team that has had trouble filling up the seats despite having some of the lowest ticket prices in the league with one of their best teams ever, if they don't get it, they could be in a lot of financial trouble. The owners have said that they're not worried about the money, but resigning Miller could have huge implications on their ability to keep Shattenkirk, Schwartz, or Tarasenko, who are all far more important than Miller moving forward. The Blues have never been set up this well for a let down as they are now, and there are now big consequences if they follow through in true Blues fashion. On March 01 2014 15:49 GolemMadness wrote:I don't know where you're getting that Chris Stewart has scored 28 goals twice before. He got 28 goals once, and his next highest was 18. The fact is that he was doing nothing to help out St. Louis, and was their 3rd most expensive forward. You say yourself that he was a horrible fit on St. Louis, so what are you complaining about here? He's a horrible fit, but he obviously has value. He was pretty good last season during the lockout. Teams around the league are still interested in him. He could have been used (or added to with one or more of those picks) to add a young player who actually helps the Blues like a Mika Zibanejad or a pick. Instead they got another gritty depth forward in Ott, when they already have Reaves, Lappiere, Sobotka, Morrow, Backes and Oshie. That is simply extremely poor asset management. William Carrier is someone they can't afford to trade away? Let's be real here. There's a small chance that he'll crack the top 6 in 5 years. It's not like they're trading away Ty Rattie. Consistent, elite goalies aren't easy to acquire. Which #1 center are they supposed to get who's looked better than Backes this year? Most people thought that Toronto was going to finish as high as 10th in the league...? Maybe if you happen to live in Toronto. Most late 1st round picks don't even become career NHL players. In last year's playoffs, Chris Stewart got 1 point in 6 games. The year before that, he got 2 in 7. He's never shown himself to be a playoff performer, even at his peak on Colorado. Teams are interested in Steve Ott as well, so at the very least, they could always trade him. How is Mika Zibanejad or a pick going to help them win right now? Zibanejad isn't an upgrade over Backes, Roy or Berglund.
When you're on a budget like the Blues are, you cannot trade away the chance of having a young impact player on top of first round picks for a rental. The Blues have been down that road often before and it only ever ended in more heartache and hurting down the road. Zibanejad helps by being a solid young center with upside who slots into the third line (Roy would move to wing as he's not cut out for center on the Blues). He provides something that the organization doesn't have, unlike Ott who gives more of the same. They could have given a hard look at Kesler, or waited until the offseason and pushed hard for Stastny & a cheaper goalie. If the Blues re-sign Miller, there will be next to no chance of fielding a competitive offer for Stastny, who is a hometown guy and has been thought to be interested in signing in St. Louis.
The St. Louis Blues are built on late firsts and seconds picks becoming solid NHL players. Berglund, Oshie, Perron, Backes, Rattie, Jaskin, and Cole were all drafted in that range and are currently or project to be impact players. This has been monumental in the Blues' success because you have the player willing to sign for a team friendly deal while making an impact. With the Blues fairly well documented financial troubles and attendance issues, this is very, very important to the organization, allowing them contend for cheap.
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boo leafs boo 
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Damn it sure is snowing in Chicago.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
lol who knows, this is pretty bizarre.
Lafontaine is randomly offered the position of GM, he turns it down because he is not ready and instead is hired as President, the position above GM. Then when the actual GM he hires makes a move, he's upset that he doesn't have the final say? There are reports that he offered Miller to the Ducks at one point, so it's not like he was opposed a few months ago.
Barnaby is tweeting:
"I am told this had nothing to with the trade last night.... Nothing to do with Teddy as coach...Far from over and could be real UGLY!"
"There it is Pat out.....Teddy will be next.... A lot more to come on this story"
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the problem is the guy that bought the team is constantly interfering in high level decisions.
top level NHL execs that are really good want AUTONOMY.
they ain't gettin' it from the "do gooder" that owns the team.
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
You can criticize Pegula for not making personnel changes soon enough, but it doesn't seem like he has been interfering with decisions. Obviously I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but from what I can tell, he's not a hockey operations kind of guy.
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they are shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.
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On March 02 2014 08:08 Flaccid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 05:02 QuanticHawk wrote:
that being said, I still do not care for this trade that much frm st. louis' perspective. Stewart may not have been a great fit because he needs top minutes to produce and needs an offense that relies off the rush more, but i feel having a guy who has topped 25g twice and was on pace for it once more is more valuable than a goalie who is marginally better than your starter.
miller's reputation exists entirely because of his one really good season, 2010 olympics and this year, but the fact is that he has always been a slightly above average goalie who can occasionally good hockey for some stretches. The only thing he has going for him over halak is that he's probably a bit more consistent, and when he's hot his peak is higher.
is he better than Halak? Yeah. Is the difference between the two worth coughing up a guy your depth scoring (, a decent nhl prospect, a first and potentially a second first if they make the conference finals? I definitely do not think so, and with how much they gave up in this trade, the only way they win it is if they win the Cup.
Steve Ott is a really solid piece for most contenders, but St Louis relies more on scoring by committee than it does having one or two guys generating 40% of the offense. Chris Stewart is worth way more to their franchise, even if he isn't in a starring role. And it's not like STL was lacking a bottom six guy who is good on draws and good in his own end. Svobotka has a 60% goddamn faceoff rate.
I would like the trade a lot more for STL if they coughed up the picks and kept Stewart. Ott is pretty redundant on a team that has guys like Svobotka, Lappy, Morrow and other dudes who can soak up tough zone starts without fucking up. Hard to argue with any of that. I don't think anyone would suggest that this trade makes St.Louis a better team in the long term - but I also doubt anyone would say that St.Louis is concerned with being better in the long term. They clearly think that this year represents a good chance for them to win a championship and this trade makes them a better playoff team - where consistent goaltending is so important. Losing Stewart blows especially when you consider that they already lost Perron in order to obtain a guy who is most useful at keeping their press-box occupied. I would guess that they wanted Paajarvi to be a part of this trade and perhaps he could have been had his stock not fallen to RIM levels of attractiveness. Maybe a 2012-2013 Paajarvi would get this trade accomplished without the loss of Stewart. Oh well, none of that matters. Personally, I feel that draft picks, especially those outside of the top 4 or 5, are vastly overrated. Hell, I cheer for a team that farms first-overalls and they are still garbage. GMs pay a lot for potential because they think they are smart but it's not entirely common for a late-round pick (even in the first round) to be a big win. There are infinitely more Colton Teuberts than Jordan Eberles. Back to Miller. He's not Rask or Lundqvist but he has been one of the most consistent goaltenders of the decade. Possibly the only guy with more consistency in the league with a comparable length of service is Hank. Maybe a few more. You don't always need superhuman goaltending to win a championship, but you do need consistency. Sometimes you get it from unlikely sources (Crawford, Osgood), and sometimes you're a very good team who can't get it when you need it (lolfleury). St.Louis is trying to win now and for that they have leveraged a part of their future. Teams do that all of the time and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If I'm a St.Louis fan, I'm happy with this trade because I don't care if my team is moderately competitive for the next 5 years. I want them to win a goddamn cup for the first time in the history of their franchise and that's all I care about.
Yeah stl not caring abou the future is fine. I am just not sure that they're uch better off overall from this trade. I think on a defensive team that relys on scoring by committee Stewart is more valuable than the tea thinks. I guess I'm just not as high miller as others.
I do agree about mid to late draft picks. Picks outside the top ten are with way less for sure. And hemsky is criminally underrated
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Luke Gazdic is a monster.
o.o
I'm surprised people keep fighting him. After KOing Westgarth, he now has 4 KTFO's on the season.
Honestly, Gazdic is the brightest spot on this year for the Oilers. Reminds me of Curtis Glencross, actually. Just a much stronger fighter, maybe less hands in the crease too. Give him two years I bet he is playing 13+ minutes a night.
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On March 02 2014 14:43 iCanada wrote:
Luke Gazdic is a monster.
o.o
I'm surprised people keep fighting him. After KOing Westgarth, he now has 4 KTFO's on the season.
Honestly, Gazdic is the brightest spot on this year for the Oilers. Reminds me of Curtis Glencross, actually. Just a much stronger fighter, maybe less hands in the crease too. Give him two years I bet he is playing 13+ minutes a night.
Guess the Albertan fans gotta be entertained somehow.
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On March 02 2014 14:43 iCanada wrote:
Luke Gazdic is a monster.
o.o
I'm surprised people keep fighting him. After KOing Westgarth, he now has 4 KTFO's on the season.
Honestly, Gazdic is the brightest spot on this year for the Oilers. Reminds me of Curtis Glencross, actually. Just a much stronger fighter, maybe less hands in the crease too. Give him two years I bet he is playing 13+ minutes a night.
I watched the game last night. The only Oiler who was consistently working harder than the poor Flames was Perron. This guy is giving it all on every shift. I was really impressed.
They should have given him the C instead of fucking Ference who takes selfish penalties.
Also, if Eakins was able to get his guys playing as hard as Hartley's team, the Oilers would be in the playoffs.
They should really send Eakins comb his hair home and get a respected coach in Edmonton.
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On March 03 2014 00:59 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 14:43 iCanada wrote:
Luke Gazdic is a monster.
o.o
I'm surprised people keep fighting him. After KOing Westgarth, he now has 4 KTFO's on the season.
Honestly, Gazdic is the brightest spot on this year for the Oilers. Reminds me of Curtis Glencross, actually. Just a much stronger fighter, maybe less hands in the crease too. Give him two years I bet he is playing 13+ minutes a night. I watched the game last night. The only Oiler who was consistently working harder than the poor Flames was Perron. This guy is giving it all on every shift. I was really impressed. They should have given him the C instead of fucking Ference who takes selfish penalties. Also, if Eakins was able to get his guys playing as hard as Hartley's team, the Oilers would be in the playoffs. They should really send Eakins comb his hair home and get a respected coach in Edmonton.
I'd agree there. Perron is probably a brighter spot than Gazdic. Gazdic just always wins, and can actually play the game of hockey. I'd honestly put him in the same class as guys like Kyle Clifford, and Ryan Reaves.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID26iClPumI
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I dont know much about him other than his fighting, but Gazdic can def throw down. Westgarth is a shit fighter though.
I really wish they'd develop tear away visors already. Not having the ability to thrown down your helmet gives him a nice advantage
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On March 02 2014 15:27 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 14:43 iCanada wrote:
Luke Gazdic is a monster.
o.o
I'm surprised people keep fighting him. After KOing Westgarth, he now has 4 KTFO's on the season.
Honestly, Gazdic is the brightest spot on this year for the Oilers. Reminds me of Curtis Glencross, actually. Just a much stronger fighter, maybe less hands in the crease too. Give him two years I bet he is playing 13+ minutes a night. Guess the Albertan fans gotta be entertained somehow.
I don't mind Gazdic only because he prevents the Oilers from having an even worse hockey player in that role. For whatever reason, the Oilers and their fan-base always need to chase a knuckle-dragger or two and Gazdic wins simply by being the lesser of many evils. He wins by virtue of being a better player than the likes of Steve McIntyre and Mike Brown - not exactly glowing praise. He's a great fighter, but that depends on what side of the fighting line you fall on.
Personally, I'd rather see a good hockey player on the fourth line rather than a marginal one who is good in a scrap. Good hockey teams don't have a constantly disastrous fourth line that gets consistently murdered when on the ice. In regards to Gazdic, well, here's the bottom end of the league's corsi chart:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6Y6e1Rl.png)
That Oilers fourth line is where hockey players go to die. This isn't all on Gazdic. Like I said, he's a better player than most coke-machines but that's not exactly elite company. He's a Zach Stortini who can fight better.
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I don't understand why any team would bother with players like Mike Brown, Zach Stortini, Colton Orr or Luke Gazdic. Those roster spot are better used on players that can skate, shoot, hit or any combination of those 3. Most of these guys can't do anything other then throw a right cross. Useless.
Need more players like Milan Lucic and Jarome Iginla.
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i always loved orr, but him still having a job in the nhl is still pretty lol. the bottom of the corsi list is pretty not surprising. im surprised there arent more calgary bottom liners on it though.
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On March 03 2014 06:54 QuanticHawk wrote:
i always loved orr, but him still having a job in the nhl is still pretty lol. the bottom of the corsi list is pretty not surprising. im surprised there arent more calgary bottom liners on it though.
Hard to not have the puck while you're on the ice when you spend 10 minutes a game in the penalty box and get 4 min ice time on good nights.
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On March 03 2014 06:15 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would bother with players like Mike Brown, Zach Stortini, Colton Orr or Luke Gazdic. Those roster spot are better used on players that can skate, shoot, hit or any combination of those 3. Most of these guys can't do anything other then throw a right cross. Useless.
Need more players like Milan Lucic and Jarome Iginla.
Because a lot of of GM and coaches are old guys who think 'heart' and 'truculence' and 'fired up after a fight' are more relevant factors than actual hockey ability. Which is why teams that load up on guys like that usually struggle.
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EPT
