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Why not Treat APM like weight classes? - Page 3

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LennoxPM
Profile Joined May 2012
Lithuania84 Posts
March 11 2013 19:25 GMT
#41
You can actually classify players on their weight as well, so desrow would play only with targa and incontrol. That would make as much sense as classifying them on their APM.

P.S. NO SENSE
Thor.Rush
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden702 Posts
March 11 2013 19:29 GMT
#42
Terrible idea. Are you trolling? Nah, but seriously.. there's too many reasons why this wouldn't work at all. Someone with high apm can lower their apm at will. Different races require different apm. There are grandmaster players with much less apm than the average high master player. etc etc etc.
| SaSe | Naniwa |Stephano | LucifroN | Mvp | MarineKing | ByuN | Polt | MC | Parting |
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
March 11 2013 19:30 GMT
#43
On March 12 2013 04:25 paladin8 wrote:
90% of the people responding here are completely missing the point of the thread. The goal is not to separate players into "more skilled" and "less skilled" groups, but to separate them into "faster" and "slower" groups and distinguish by skill within the groups. The OP is arguing that there is some correlation between APM and skill to the extent that it would be interesting to see how players with similar APMs stack up against each other, not that more APM = more skill.

Personally, I think it's a valid question to ask, but there may be various practical reasons it can't happen, e.g. player pool too small, hard to define/enforce in a reasonable way. And certainly 7 groups would be way overdoing it, but I can see an argument for 2 or even 3.


But why? There are already enough tournaments and all anyone ever wants to watch is either their fan favourite or the best there is, not many people are concerned with low skill players playing low skilled players or high skilled players playing low skilled players. (As you would get if you did this)
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-11 19:34:52
March 11 2013 19:31 GMT
#44
Bad idea, because there wouldnt be enough competition left in each category and APM is CHANGEABLE ... you could downplay your true potential just to get into an "easier" category. So there really is no point to this.

A much better way to "liven up the competition" would be to add more randomness in competitions, i.e. to NOT announce the opponent someone is going to face in the GSL a week beforehand. Maybe you could even have "mystery fights" where they dont even know the opponents name at all (just something like "one of those three") and you need to scout them first.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
March 11 2013 19:32 GMT
#45
What's stopping no limit Koreans from "descending" into lower APM divisions and intentionally play slower? I feel they can still win with 40APM vs "legitimate" 40 APM players.
Master of DalK
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Canada1803 Posts
March 11 2013 19:33 GMT
#46
Goody would win everything in his division then =p

Idk if this is a good idea, maybe if EPM was used instead of APM then I'd be intrigued to see it (EPM = efficient apm, so apm without the spam)
@MasterDalK | Maelstrom Entertainment | Streaming Every Esport Under the Sun
JMDj
Profile Joined September 2010
United States454 Posts
March 11 2013 19:37 GMT
#47
This is such a weird and honestly dumb idea/comparison. If you want to distinguish between different skill levels there is already built in ladder leagues to represent that.

Also, APM is an AVERAGE measurement of actions per minute. In MMA the fighter's weight isn't constantly changing during the fight. Are you going to punish the player if their APM goes over their 'apm cap'?
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
March 11 2013 19:38 GMT
#48
On March 12 2013 03:46 Don.681 wrote:
@USV
Yes, just like weight has nothing to with skill. But, a decent Flyweight Boxer wont stand a chance against a decent Heavyweight (they have the same "skill"), that's why they are separated by weight classes.

In the same way, a decent guy playing at 40APM wont stand a chance against a decent guy playing at 300 APM.

@Befree
Imagine a kiddie tournament with a savant kid dominating at 300+ APM. That wont be fun to watch for their parents, but imagine one where a limit is imposed. That savant kid would be at a pro or semi-pro league, and we can have some little-league competition where the kids would be happy.

I imagine, there would be a standard, coming out for the 40APM crowd in a few months.


I have regularly been beaten by protoss players with 40-50 apm while mine is 150-200. APM has no correspondence to gameplay for most people. Toss can deathball aoe with 40 apm easy, to counter it as Terran takes much more.

I would rather just seperate people by skill. So the kid has 300 apm, what is he doing with it? Is he a gold player or a grandmaster? we already have good ways of levelling the playing field for tourneys, by league is the simplest and best way to do it.

You could limit RoRo or Flash to 50 apm and they would still beat 99% of non-pros. Goody and Sjow both had sub 100 APM and were winning regularly at pro level for a long time, Goody even took games off koreans.

APM really is the worst way to define anything.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Kashll
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1117 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-11 19:41:05
March 11 2013 19:40 GMT
#49
On March 12 2013 03:55 ExO_ wrote:
Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill. APM is a byproduct, it's the effect not the cause.


Uh yes it does. Do you know what the term "correlation" even means?

Also the main problem with this proposal is that fighters get weighed BEFORE the match, whereas APM is calculated AFTER the match. And APM is much more short-term variable than weight.
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
March 11 2013 19:41 GMT
#50
I know everyone has said this but I'm going to say it again.. APM means Nothing. You can't compare Weight Classes with APM because Weight Classes actually have a major effect on the outcome. If you have a guy thats 180 lbs. of muscle and then you have a guy thats 200 lbs of muscle, even if they both have equal skill, the heavier guy is almost always going to win (if not always). In bronze - plat, I averaged around 150ish apm but would lose to people who barely scratched 60. I now average 250ish apm and still lose to people with sub 140. APM will never equal skill, even in the higher levels.
ok
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
March 11 2013 19:41 GMT
#51
On March 12 2013 04:40 Kashll wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2013 03:55 ExO_ wrote:
Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill. APM is a byproduct, it's the effect not the cause.


Uh yes it does. Do you know what the term "correlation" even means?

Also the main problem with this proposal is that fighters get weighed BEFORE the match, whereas APM is calculated AFTER the match. And APM is much more short-term variable than weight.


He meant causation obviously, as in causation != correlation.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
March 11 2013 19:43 GMT
#52
OP doesn't understand Starcraft, simple as that.
c0ldfusion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States8293 Posts
March 11 2013 19:45 GMT
#53
On March 12 2013 04:20 grush57 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2013 03:57 c0ldfusion wrote:
On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:

In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play.


The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap.

For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored.

that's retarded and no one would watch that


lol, dude it's not my idea. I'm just trying to explain how OP's idea can be implemented.
Duka08
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
3391 Posts
March 11 2013 19:47 GMT
#54
On March 12 2013 03:52 Don.681 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2013 03:50 TylerThaCreator wrote:
doesnt make any sense, a 200 apm person can beat a 300 apm one fine. apm doesnt make or break skill level


Yeah, but if you put a limit, the best @200APM would be fighting the best @200APM and that 300APM guy would just plain suck at the 300APM league.

This is so wrong though. Especially with the numbers you chose. Something about correlation and causation.

There are people using the extreme examples of <80APM versus 300, and yes there's going to be a strong trend there, but upwards of 200APM I couldn't possibly disagree more.
Valkola
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland128 Posts
March 11 2013 19:48 GMT
#55
Interesting idea certainly.
Mmm..
Gospadin
Profile Joined July 2010
United States84 Posts
March 11 2013 19:49 GMT
#56
Wouldn't the lower levels be dominated by 1-base all-in play, since large armies naturally contribute to higher APM as you move them around?
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
March 11 2013 19:49 GMT
#57
Hah, at the beginning of the post I thought you were referring to Boxer and MMA, as in the players. I don't get out much.
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
FancyCaTSC2
Profile Joined February 2013
56 Posts
March 11 2013 19:50 GMT
#58
APM is not determined by physical condition, which is why the comparion between weight classes and apm is nowhere near legit.

/thread
guN-viCe
Profile Joined March 2010
United States687 Posts
March 11 2013 19:51 GMT
#59
Sorry, I don't like this idea at all except for a joke-type of game.

What's to stop pro's from purposely lowering their APM so they can dominate the lower leagues?

Sometimes stoner thoughts should just stay as stoner thoughts
Never give up, never surrender!!! ~~ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -Sagan
sM.Zik
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada2553 Posts
March 11 2013 19:57 GMT
#60
But... Protoss would win every division.
Jaedong Fighting! | youtube.com/ZikGaming
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