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A bit out of this world, but the idea is:
1-on-1 Combat sports like Boxing and MMA classify athletes in weight classes to keep the competition skill-based. It somewhat balances finesse and mastery vs brute force and pure speed.
Weight classes limit the ceilings of speed and power at a given weight range, but there is no limit to finesse and mastery. No one can steamroll all other people in the same class unless they have mastered a sweet spot of physical prowess and technique mastery.
I believe, SC2 as an e-sport has a lot in common with combat sports. But since power is not an issue, speed is dominating the sport. Those with speed steamrolls every other type of player.
What if it didn't?
Imagine tournaments were held with APM caps. Lets say there was a referee or a software limit imposed.
1. a division at 40 APM max
2. a division at 80 APM max
3. a division at 120 APM max
4. a division at 200 APM max
5. a division at 300 APM max
6. a division at 400 APM max
7. a no limit division
We would have stars and champions at different APMs. Amateur leagues and kid leagues. Different styles dominating different divisions.
We would have more variety and, I think it would be good for the game as far as international exposure is concerned. Koreans can dominate the high and no-limit divisions because their culture allows the volume of practice needed, and other countries can try and catch up because they can setup small-time scenes with low APM tournaments.
I mean, we can be sure at the time of this posting, the #1 no-APM-limit pro is Korean. But, once you put a limit, everything changes. A guy anywhere in the world can be 40 APM champion by strategy and efficiency --without the volume of practice/traning a no-limit guy needs.
So, is this a good idea?
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APM has nothing to do with skill.
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On March 12 2013 03:41 USvBleakill wrote:
APM has nothing to do with skill.
Nor do weight classes. I don't think he argued anything remotely close to that in his post.
I can see low APM limits being interesting for some sort of single novelty match, but I can't imagine a tournament utilizing it. It'd be too awkward and would require too much practice for something non-standard.
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Goody would be world champion in the division up to 80 APM no problem. 
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@USV
Yes, just like weight has nothing to with skill. But, a decent Flyweight Boxer wont stand a chance against a decent Heavyweight (they have the same "skill"), that's why they are separated by weight classes.
In the same way, a decent guy playing at 40APM wont stand a chance against a decent guy playing at 300 APM.
@Befree
Imagine a kiddie tournament with a savant kid dominating at 300+ APM. That wont be fun to watch for their parents, but imagine one where a limit is imposed. That savant kid would be at a pro or semi-pro league, and we can have some little-league competition where the kids would be happy.
I imagine, there would be a standard, coming out for the 40APM crowd in a few months.
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On March 12 2013 03:45 Befree wrote:Nor do weight classes. I don't think he argued anything remotely close to that in his post. I can see low APM limits being interesting for some sort of single novelty match, but I can't imagine a tournament utilizing it. It'd be too awkward and would require too much practice for something non-standard.
There's a difference between APM and weight classes in fighting though. You can do just as well with 50 apm as 200. A 150 lb guy has 0 chance against a 300 lb one if they are both fully trained fighters.
On March 12 2013 03:46 Don.681 wrote:
@USV
Yes, just like weight has nothing to with skill. But, a decent Flyweight Boxer wont stand a chance against a decent Heavyweight (they have the same "skill"), that's why they are separated by weight classes.
In the same way, a decent guy playing at 40APM wont stand a chance against a decent guy playing at 300 APM.
But the 40apm guy can stand a chance. Well maybe not 40, but 60'ish or so.
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I don't like this idea, I want to see the best pro's with the best multitasking play.
And I think Koreans will still own every division...
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Because there is absolutely no reasonable comparison between APM in SC2 and weight classes in fighting.
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On March 12 2013 03:46 Don.681 wrote:
@USV
Yes, just like weight has nothing to with skill. But, a decent Flyweight Boxer wont stand a chance against a decent Heavyweight (they have the same "skill"), that's why they are separated by weight classes.
In the same way, a decent guy playing at 40APM wont stand a chance against a decent guy playing at 300 APM.
I dont thinnk you can be decent with 40apm though...
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doesnt make any sense, a 200 apm person can beat a 300 apm one fine. apm doesnt make or break skill level
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United States7481 Posts
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play.
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The scene is not big enough for these lower divisions. No one gives a shit who is the 40apm champ when you can watch koreans/top foreigners show how the game is played.
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Actually, it would be cool to have weight classes in SC2 also  Can you imagine if you saw progamer tweets of them wrapped up in plastic in a sauna on an exercise bike being like "BRO I HAVE TO CUT WEIGHT, GSL FINALS TMRW"
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
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Training to be able to execute @ 200 apm is possible while incereasing your skill, going up to 200 lbs. and improving your performance isn't for a lot of people. That's why weight divisions make a lot of sense and apm division really don't imo.
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On March 12 2013 03:50 TylerThaCreator wrote:
doesnt make any sense, a 200 apm person can beat a 300 apm one fine. apm doesnt make or break skill level
Yeah, but if you put a limit, the best @200APM would be fighting the best @200APM and that 300APM guy would just plain suck at the 300APM league.
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weight is an actual problem in boxing and MMA, but APM is not in SC. Polt has around 150 APM and he can beat any foreigner with over 400 APMs any day any time. This is a stupid discussion.
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I think this won't work because of protoss 
I played at mid to high masters with maybe 240 APM, most Z and T opponents I played were at similar APM levels but the majority of P players had way lower APM, below 200 for sure.
So suddenly the P players would get bored from getting way easier opponents and T and Z would face P players that are a lot better I think :D
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On March 12 2013 03:51 Targe wrote:
Because APM != skill?
Actually your execution speed is a big part of skill in sc2 and being able to make good desicions while playing that speed is antoerh big one. So actually, yes.
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Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill. APM is a byproduct, it's the effect not the cause.
Edit: To elaborate more people are saying APM = Speed and execution, which to some degree is true. However APM isn't a reflection of how well you execute a strategy, in fact you can have very high APM and be doing a build entirely wrong, slow, and inefficient. In a sense, there is no X amount of actions you need to be able to perform while doing any given thin in sc2 (so for instance I can't say in order to do the immortal sentry all-in vs zerg you need to have 150 apm or higher). APM is a reflection of how many things you clicked, it doesn't make those clicks meaningful.
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apm is not a constant attribute of a player, it depends on a lot of things. The same player can have higher or lower apm depending on the pace of the game, strategy, length of the game. I think you cant compare apm to weight like this.
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On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play.
The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap.
For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored.
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On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play.
I suppose it would have to be coded in. I wonder if it can be in a custom map, then all it takes is a tournament organizer to pick up the idea.
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APM has 0 to do with almost anything related to starcraft skill, especially the new meaningless APM
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On March 12 2013 03:55 ExO_ wrote:
Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill.
On March 12 2013 03:45 Befree wrote:
Nor do weight classes. I don't think he argued anything remotely close to that in his post.
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Eeu.. no.Just one of the things wrong with this is that apm alone is not an accurate representation of a players abillity to play "fast".A player with slightly less apm could still be playing "faster" and better.
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On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play.
What I am saying is that we would have guys training specifically for a given APM to be the world best at that APM. When these guys fight, APM would be regulated, so it would be the equivalent of "dynamic" weigh in.
And, i am saying these type of fights would be like undercard fights of the big tournaments where no-limit guys fight. Normal day to day ladder and stuff is still no-limit, you would just have tournaments where you have the players focus on efficiency instead of steamrolling the opponent with speed.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:53 4tre55 wrote:Actually your execution speed is a big part of skill in sc2 and being able to make good desicions while playing that speed is antoerh big one. So actually, yes.
I said that APM is not the same thing as skill, where in my post did I say that you don't need APM?
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On March 12 2013 03:45 Befree wrote:Nor do weight classes. I don't think he argued anything remotely close to that in his post. I can see low APM limits being interesting for some sort of single novelty match, but I can't imagine a tournament utilizing it. It'd be too awkward and would require too much practice for something non-standard.
But someone at 250 apm can lose to someone at 150 apm. Someone at 250 pounds will not lose to someone at 150 in a professional fight. It would be a mauling unless the 250 guy was incompetent.
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If anything, I just learned what MMA meant. So, Slayers MMA took his name from Slayers BoxeR, and changed the type of fighting sports. That's clever, and this thread taught me this.
On topic, as a spectator, I would probably only watch no limit and the lowest one (40 APM in this case). No limit for an obvious reason, and the lowest one is to see what strategies people go with such low APMs. Fine idea for non-broadcast competition, I'd say, but don't expect many viewers except for no limit division.
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While APM alone does not define someones skill, in order to compete in the pro scene successfully, especially in korea, you do need a minimum average of 300 or higher.
If you are both pros, and 1 player has higher apm, then the APM matters a tremendous amount. In the mid game, If for every action you do, if your opponent can do 4 in the same time frame, your in trouble. As theoretically, more macro and micro will be done compared to you.
Outside of the pro scene however, I would agree that apm has little meaning. This is even more true for leagues lower then masters. People spam at the beginning only to stop or slow down when the game actually starts going. People don't understand the game completely, even at masters, in-where a lower apm player can outsmart a higher apm player and win, just with strategy or positioning.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2013 04:05 Armada Vega wrote:
While APM alone does not define someones skill, in order to compete in the pro scene successfully, especially in korea, you do need a minimum average of 300 or higher.
If you are both pros, and 1 player has higher apm, then the APM matters a tremendous amount. In the mid game, If for every action you do, if your opponent can do 4 in the same time frame, your in trouble. As theoretically, more macro and micro will be done compared to you.
Outside of the pro scene however, I would agree that apm has little meaning. This is even more true for leagues lower then masters. People spam at the beginning only to stop or slow down when the game actually starts going. People don't understand the game completely, even at masters, in-where a lower apm player can outsmart a higher apm player and win, just with strategy or positioning.
whitera would like a word.
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sounds like something you thought up of cause you're slow
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On March 12 2013 04:05 Armada Vega wrote:
(...) especially in korea, you do need a minimum average of 300 or higher.(...)
Really? What's this magical rule? How come it's 300? Why not 299? or some other number.
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Wanna know why not? I have 350-380 apm avg, and I'm shit. I can barely make it past top 20 master. So that's why.
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No because apm fluxuates throughout each game
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On March 12 2013 03:57 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play. The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap. For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored.
that's retarded and no one would watch that
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elfi would have no competition at his 100 apm per game.
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90% of the people responding here are completely missing the point of the thread. The goal is not to separate players into "more skilled" and "less skilled" groups, but to separate them into "faster" and "slower" groups and distinguish by skill within the groups. The OP is arguing that there is some correlation between APM and skill to the extent that it would be interesting to see how players with similar APMs stack up against each other, not that more APM = more skill.
Personally, I think it's a valid question to ask, but there may be various practical reasons it can't happen, e.g. player pool too small, hard to define/enforce in a reasonable way. And certainly 7 groups would be way overdoing it, but I can see an argument for 2 or even 3.
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You can actually classify players on their weight as well, so desrow would play only with targa and incontrol. That would make as much sense as classifying them on their APM.
P.S. NO SENSE
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Terrible idea. Are you trolling? Nah, but seriously.. there's too many reasons why this wouldn't work at all. Someone with high apm can lower their apm at will. Different races require different apm. There are grandmaster players with much less apm than the average high master player. etc etc etc.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2013 04:25 paladin8 wrote:
90% of the people responding here are completely missing the point of the thread. The goal is not to separate players into "more skilled" and "less skilled" groups, but to separate them into "faster" and "slower" groups and distinguish by skill within the groups. The OP is arguing that there is some correlation between APM and skill to the extent that it would be interesting to see how players with similar APMs stack up against each other, not that more APM = more skill.
Personally, I think it's a valid question to ask, but there may be various practical reasons it can't happen, e.g. player pool too small, hard to define/enforce in a reasonable way. And certainly 7 groups would be way overdoing it, but I can see an argument for 2 or even 3.
But why? There are already enough tournaments and all anyone ever wants to watch is either their fan favourite or the best there is, not many people are concerned with low skill players playing low skilled players or high skilled players playing low skilled players. (As you would get if you did this)
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Bad idea, because there wouldnt be enough competition left in each category and APM is CHANGEABLE ... you could downplay your true potential just to get into an "easier" category. So there really is no point to this.
A much better way to "liven up the competition" would be to add more randomness in competitions, i.e. to NOT announce the opponent someone is going to face in the GSL a week beforehand. Maybe you could even have "mystery fights" where they dont even know the opponents name at all (just something like "one of those three") and you need to scout them first.
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What's stopping no limit Koreans from "descending" into lower APM divisions and intentionally play slower? I feel they can still win with 40APM vs "legitimate" 40 APM players.
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Goody would win everything in his division then =p
Idk if this is a good idea, maybe if EPM was used instead of APM then I'd be intrigued to see it (EPM = efficient apm, so apm without the spam)
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This is such a weird and honestly dumb idea/comparison. If you want to distinguish between different skill levels there is already built in ladder leagues to represent that.
Also, APM is an AVERAGE measurement of actions per minute. In MMA the fighter's weight isn't constantly changing during the fight. Are you going to punish the player if their APM goes over their 'apm cap'?
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On March 12 2013 03:46 Don.681 wrote:
@USV
Yes, just like weight has nothing to with skill. But, a decent Flyweight Boxer wont stand a chance against a decent Heavyweight (they have the same "skill"), that's why they are separated by weight classes.
In the same way, a decent guy playing at 40APM wont stand a chance against a decent guy playing at 300 APM.
@Befree
Imagine a kiddie tournament with a savant kid dominating at 300+ APM. That wont be fun to watch for their parents, but imagine one where a limit is imposed. That savant kid would be at a pro or semi-pro league, and we can have some little-league competition where the kids would be happy.
I imagine, there would be a standard, coming out for the 40APM crowd in a few months.
I have regularly been beaten by protoss players with 40-50 apm while mine is 150-200. APM has no correspondence to gameplay for most people. Toss can deathball aoe with 40 apm easy, to counter it as Terran takes much more.
I would rather just seperate people by skill. So the kid has 300 apm, what is he doing with it? Is he a gold player or a grandmaster? we already have good ways of levelling the playing field for tourneys, by league is the simplest and best way to do it.
You could limit RoRo or Flash to 50 apm and they would still beat 99% of non-pros. Goody and Sjow both had sub 100 APM and were winning regularly at pro level for a long time, Goody even took games off koreans.
APM really is the worst way to define anything.
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On March 12 2013 03:55 ExO_ wrote:
Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill. APM is a byproduct, it's the effect not the cause.
Uh yes it does. Do you know what the term "correlation" even means?
Also the main problem with this proposal is that fighters get weighed BEFORE the match, whereas APM is calculated AFTER the match. And APM is much more short-term variable than weight.
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I know everyone has said this but I'm going to say it again.. APM means Nothing. You can't compare Weight Classes with APM because Weight Classes actually have a major effect on the outcome. If you have a guy thats 180 lbs. of muscle and then you have a guy thats 200 lbs of muscle, even if they both have equal skill, the heavier guy is almost always going to win (if not always). In bronze - plat, I averaged around 150ish apm but would lose to people who barely scratched 60. I now average 250ish apm and still lose to people with sub 140. APM will never equal skill, even in the higher levels.
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On March 12 2013 04:40 Kashll wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 03:55 ExO_ wrote:
Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill. APM is a byproduct, it's the effect not the cause.
Uh yes it does. Do you know what the term "correlation" even means? Also the main problem with this proposal is that fighters get weighed BEFORE the match, whereas APM is calculated AFTER the match. And APM is much more short-term variable than weight.
He meant causation obviously, as in causation != correlation.
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OP doesn't understand Starcraft, simple as that.
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On March 12 2013 04:20 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 03:57 c0ldfusion wrote:On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play. The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap. For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored. that's retarded and no one would watch that
lol, dude it's not my idea. I'm just trying to explain how OP's idea can be implemented.
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On March 12 2013 03:52 Don.681 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 03:50 TylerThaCreator wrote:
doesnt make any sense, a 200 apm person can beat a 300 apm one fine. apm doesnt make or break skill level Yeah, but if you put a limit, the best @200APM would be fighting the best @200APM and that 300APM guy would just plain suck at the 300APM league.
This is so wrong though. Especially with the numbers you chose. Something about correlation and causation.
There are people using the extreme examples of <80APM versus 300, and yes there's going to be a strong trend there, but upwards of 200APM I couldn't possibly disagree more.
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Interesting idea certainly.
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Wouldn't the lower levels be dominated by 1-base all-in play, since large armies naturally contribute to higher APM as you move them around?
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Hah, at the beginning of the post I thought you were referring to Boxer and MMA, as in the players. I don't get out much.
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APM is not determined by physical condition, which is why the comparion between weight classes and apm is nowhere near legit.
/thread
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Sorry, I don't like this idea at all except for a joke-type of game.
What's to stop pro's from purposely lowering their APM so they can dominate the lower leagues?
Sometimes stoner thoughts should just stay as stoner thoughts
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But... Protoss would win every division.
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Or, maybe in a friendly showmatch between pros, something like
Game 1 = no limit
Game 2 = 200 max
Game 3 = 150 max
Game 4 = 100 max
Game 5 = 75 max
Game 6 = 50 max
Game 7 = 25 max
I would totally watch that between 2 pros like Life vs Flash today. Players can laugh at how slow they have to play in later games. It would be hilarious. Unfit for a serious tournament, but interesting for a showmatch.
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It would just be pro players doing 1 base all ins and mech/protoss. It'd be the same as now with a lower skillcap... everyone would be a master just playing slower most likely doing toss 1 base all ins since they won't be allowed the apm to manage 2+ bases.
This is a silly idea.
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On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play.
This is pretty much my thought too. I don't really see how the APM limit can or would be enforced.
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The difference between weightclass and class by apm is how you get to that number. Weight class is often determined by genetics, and that person will fight at the most optimal weight for his body type. For apm however, it is very rarely limited by any physical qualities, and will generally increase as you get better. There is no realistic way to enforce an apm cap either. Some people were saying a software cap, but that would ruin the game. Imagine spamming out 60 zerglings but then you can't do anything for 30 seconds because you've used all your actions or to a lesser extent if you were just going a little bit faster than normal and it cut out a few key actions which lost you the game. That just doesn't sound entertaining to me.
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On March 12 2013 04:30 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 04:25 paladin8 wrote:
90% of the people responding here are completely missing the point of the thread. The goal is not to separate players into "more skilled" and "less skilled" groups, but to separate them into "faster" and "slower" groups and distinguish by skill within the groups. The OP is arguing that there is some correlation between APM and skill to the extent that it would be interesting to see how players with similar APMs stack up against each other, not that more APM = more skill.
Personally, I think it's a valid question to ask, but there may be various practical reasons it can't happen, e.g. player pool too small, hard to define/enforce in a reasonable way. And certainly 7 groups would be way overdoing it, but I can see an argument for 2 or even 3. But why? There are already enough tournaments and all anyone ever wants to watch is either their fan favourite or the best there is, not many people are concerned with low skill players playing low skilled players or high skilled players playing low skilled players. (As you would get if you did this)
That's a valid question and what I interpreted to be the point of this discussion. Would viewers be interested? Would players be interested? The answer may very well be "no." I was just trying to point out that the vast majority of the replies were misunderstanding the OP.
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Can a mod please close this thread?
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On March 12 2013 03:51 Targe wrote:
Because APM != skill?
Exactly this! There a players that SPAM like crazy but still are terrible, because their Macro and decision-making sucks. Its all about efficiency. Look at Polt, he is a pretty slow player but still owns everything. :D
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Then people are just gonna "max" their APM on the easiest bracket. I want to see them try everything in their might to be able to win. Not get a diet because if you gain weight it would be too hard.
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No, it's a silly idea for a shitload of reasons already listed in some comments.
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What league would I be in then? Some games I'm at like 40APM, others at 70 or so (I suck :D, no idea what league I should be in :p), I imagine this applies to most people (ignoring those that spam to keep their APM high) depending on various things like length of game, how much pressure the other person puts on you, whether you're just macroing mainly with one big battle to end it or whether you're macroing whilst dropping everywhere because the opponent isn't handling that well etc.
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On March 12 2013 04:20 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 03:57 c0ldfusion wrote:On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote:
This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem:
In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play. The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap. For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored. that's retarded and no one would watch that
I don't know, I think it would be funny to watch matches with top-level players where they have to be below 60 APM at all times Just for the laughs though, nothing serious.
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Sure man, you go ahead and do it, but I'm not gonna be the one to tell GoOdy!
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cause zerg would be ranked higher :D
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2013 05:25 paladin8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 04:30 Targe wrote:On March 12 2013 04:25 paladin8 wrote:
90% of the people responding here are completely missing the point of the thread. The goal is not to separate players into "more skilled" and "less skilled" groups, but to separate them into "faster" and "slower" groups and distinguish by skill within the groups. The OP is arguing that there is some correlation between APM and skill to the extent that it would be interesting to see how players with similar APMs stack up against each other, not that more APM = more skill.
Personally, I think it's a valid question to ask, but there may be various practical reasons it can't happen, e.g. player pool too small, hard to define/enforce in a reasonable way. And certainly 7 groups would be way overdoing it, but I can see an argument for 2 or even 3. But why? There are already enough tournaments and all anyone ever wants to watch is either their fan favourite or the best there is, not many people are concerned with low skill players playing low skilled players or high skilled players playing low skilled players. (As you would get if you did this) That's a valid question and what I interpreted to be the point of this discussion. Would viewers be interested? Would players be interested? The answer may very well be "no." I was just trying to point out that the vast majority of the replies were misunderstanding the OP.
I agree with you on the interpretation of the OP, however it does look like the OP believes that higher APM leads to skill, whereas in reality they correlate with a large margin of deviation.
Most people in the thread are saying that APM doesn't equal skill because they don't care about what APM a player is, they care about how skilful they are.
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Or we just do divisions by age. I will dominate the 40+ division.
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APM really doesn't have much to do with skill. We said this in Brood War, we said this in WarCraft 3, and we're still saying it in StarCraft II. APM just isn't indicative of skill.
The vast majority of APM is just useless spam to either keep up the pace for when something does happen or just to fill in the blank spaces where no efficient actions can be made. If a player was totally efficient and didn't spam then their APM would be pretty low, but they'd be a great player.
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How about playtime divisions? There's folks that have demanding jobs, but would still like to play competitively. They'll almost never be able to compete with anyone who plays ten times more than them though -- even with better practice methods, simple stuff like muscle memory and experience are so important. I think it would be pretty cool for tournaments for people who play < X hours a week or something.
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On March 12 2013 05:50 dsjoerg wrote:
Or we just do divisions by age. I will dominate the 40+ division.
My hope is there's a 38.8-38.9 division.
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I like the concept, in theory, but it is too easy to manipulate APM and it is too variable (APM varies significantly depending on race, build order, strategy, etc.). The APM range would have to be expanded for each league with a firm ceiling. For example, a sub-100 APM league where a player's APM never, at any points, exceeds 100, but that would be difficult to control and at any time a player could spam or stop spamming to significantly alter their average.
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How in the world would you control this?
While you can do some funny things with your weight before/after weigh-ins and actual fights, you generally can't get from one weight class to another easily (there are checks for this in most organizations).
However, you could definitely tank your apm in any given test or trial, then play way faster in the actual game. Would you immediately end the game the second a player crests the apm cap for his class?
This could be abused worse than those league-restricted tournaments are.
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apm fluctuation has more to do with playstyle than skill imo.
some players, like me, try to have low apm (low redundant apm %) on purpose and there are others vice versa.
apm follows the skill output , skill does not follow apm (apm itself does not determine who is better/worse but rather how they're distributed, isnt there a master player using xbox controller???). apm restriction does nothing more than hampering a competent player for the sake of non competent.
its useless restriction honestly.
there are plenty of other sports that does not take "weight class" into equation, one sided view i think the OP is.
i think this is the lazy american mentality. hear me out, popular UMS(custom) maps in NA are stuff like desert strike, nexus wars where you choose unit composition and thats that, units do the work on their own. on the other hand the popular UMS maps in KR are same thing, composition based BUT you micro those spawned units. interesting phenomenon i say that makes me say americans like it lazy mode.
so, apm cap = i can compete.
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This would only work if the races had relatively similar APM ouptut at different levels. This is clearly not the case if you look at any racial statistics.
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Having "APM Classes" is pretty useless
there were D ranked players in BW with 400+ apm
the classes should be regarded by skill,like they are now - Code A,Code S etc
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Not to be critical but Ive had much better threads than this being shut down by first glance from a mod.
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I don't like this idea because:
1. APM is extremely dissociated with skill in SC2. I've heard the argument that speed is important, but APM =/= speed either. Some people can be horrendously inefficient with their APM, others can be efficient but have bad multitasking and thus not feel the full results of their APM.
2. Different races have different APM. The APM disparity between races is sometimes pretty impressive, even at the same skill level. By capping APM in a tournament, you could very easily force certain divisions to be dominated to an unfair degree by a single race.
3. Not enough players at the higher levels. While I cannot say that we don't have enough players to form stuff like a semi-pro league, that separation of players is done in such a way that actually reflects their skill. We don't have a big enough scene to just arbitrarily divide our pros into APM divisions that have very little basis on their actual skill.
4. Freaks of nature. If we make this idea a reality, we're going to have to look forward to standouts in all the divisions, whether they be a Merz fighting among top Koreans (which is unfair for Merz) or an Elfi fighting among baddies (which is unfair for everyone). Not exactly fun, especially in the latter scenario.
I could come up with way more, but this post is already getting pretty bloated.
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Weight classes exist because weight effectively gives a BIG advantage in most fighting sports.
Useless APM don't give you anything.
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Didn't even read to make this reply...
I can fake APM, can't fake my weight
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Well APM does matter its silly to say it doesnt. Its not a good consistent indicator though and its certainly not as important as the comparison to say fighting and weight classes. So its not a good idea really and its better to just put people in divisions by skill like say blizzard does it right now. APM is just one small factor not anywhere near a deciding one.
Also you would need to make the argument that the system Blizzard uses now to rank people is not working well enough. That would be a hard argument to make its very accurate.
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what happens when you just play at a low apm to weigh in and then play for real during a tournament?
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APM doesn't matter! The top pros would be just as good if they started playing with 100 apm. Captain oblivious strikes again. Obviously it helps. If there is a clown that has wrong answers for all of the problems, but he's sure of himself and likes to click a lot, then yeah, he's going to end up "losing faster." But for anyone with any idea how to play, if they're able to execute what they want faster, then, *gasp*, they're going to end up getting better results.
There's only so much you can accomplish with 100 apm, 200 apm, 300 apm, etc. I can't believe anyone would debate the concept of having an adv with more apm. Jesus... how's bronze league. The only debate is how much of an adv.
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I guess in concept it makes sense, but people spam apm, others dont, different races have different apm requirements...
dont like the idea.
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On March 12 2013 07:44 playa wrote:
APM doesn't matter! The top pros would be just as good if they started playing with 100 apm. Captain oblivious strikes again. Obviously it helps. If there is a clown that has wrong answers for all of the problems, but he's sure of himself and likes to click a lot, then yeah, he's going to end up "losing faster." But for anyone with any idea how to play, if they're able to execute what they want faster, then, *gasp*, they're going to end up getting better results.
There's only so much you can accomplish with 100 apm, 200 apm, 300 apm, etc. I can't believe anyone would debate the concept of having an adv with more apm. Jesus... how's bronze league. The only debate is how much of an adv.
Ofc more apm is better. But thats not what the thread is about.
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On March 12 2013 07:47 dpurple wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 07:44 playa wrote:
APM doesn't matter! The top pros would be just as good if they started playing with 100 apm. Captain oblivious strikes again. Obviously it helps. If there is a clown that has wrong answers for all of the problems, but he's sure of himself and likes to click a lot, then yeah, he's going to end up "losing faster." But for anyone with any idea how to play, if they're able to execute what they want faster, then, *gasp*, they're going to end up getting better results.
There's only so much you can accomplish with 100 apm, 200 apm, 300 apm, etc. I can't believe anyone would debate the concept of having an adv with more apm. Jesus... how's bronze league. The only debate is how much of an adv. Ofc more apm is better. But thats not what the thread is about.
I'm just saying, I saw some people saying APM doesn't matter. Should be banned.
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Nobody would watch it, it would be like creating a basketball league for people under six feet tall.
edit: or perhaps more accurately, people who can't dunk
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It's a cool novelty concept, too complicated for reality but still kind of interesting. I feel like any talk about APM gets negative backlash straight away though o.o, surprised at alot of the responses in this thread.
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On March 12 2013 07:48 MannerMan wrote:
Nobody would watch it, it would be like creating a basketball league for people under six feet tall.
I'd watch basketball if it was broken up into height categories. Sounds interesting.
As for your edit, no I wouldn't watch women's basketball now that Jackie Stiles is retired. No dunking, just not the same.
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I play at a lower APM than most of my opponents. Cool now I get to smurf all of the lower apm tournaments.
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i guess efli is the -50APM Champion
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On March 12 2013 03:59 ffadicted wrote:
APM has 0 to do with almost anything related to starcraft skill, especially the new meaningless APM
I hate to break it to you but apm has a lot to do with skill in regards to mechanics and unfortunately for your comment apm is more meaningful right now then it has ever been. Not only does it track actions on a real 60 second minute but it also counts camera keys as far as I know.
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A more realistic idea is to do age classes.
Age tends to effect a player in terms of style and speed (older players [i.e. nestea] play a bit slower but smarter). Age also does not tend to say if a player is good or not.
It is not like a 28 year old is bad because of his age (which is outside of his control) just like a 120 pound fighter might be an amazing fighter in the ring.
The real question is if it makes sense to break the age groups up. In my opinion, at this time, the vast majority of players fall into the same age groups and the groups would be so small (only a few years apart) that it would be weird. If players spanned a much wider group of ages (say age 13-50 had hundreds of thousands at every age and pro gamers among all ages) then it would make sense.
The idea is to break the game up based on the strain of the game. In fighting a 500 pound person vs a 200 pound person just is a bad match of strain and takes skill out of the equation. In sc2, the equivalent would be matching a 38 year old and a 15 year old that both have played the game for 5 years? (notice the ? mark) (the real question is does a persons physical attributes [age, size, speed] require special bracketing similar to how it does in the fighting world).
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I don't like this idea. In SC2, APM doesn't have a lot to do with skill. I have beaten players that have 300+ my APM, and I have seen pros with lesser APM beat pros with High APM.
The biggest problem I see with is how APM can change or manipulated. Couldn't People just play at 60APM to get qualified to the lower divisions and then play at 300 in tourney vs all the people with 60 APM? How can you keep someones APM capped and monitor it ? Players' APM can change based on injuries, condition, etc. This can happen in a matter of few days. I played games on ladder where my APM was 70, then next I had 140 APM. It is common that some days you will play higher or lower your average APM, and to use that and be placed in certain division, doesn't seem right. APM can change in matter of seconds, days. Weight on the other hand you have to workout, burn fat etc and it takes time, days and weeks. Unlike APM, you can't fake your weight
"Those with speed steamrolls every other type of player." This is most certainly not true.
Overall trying to compare weight and APM is bad idea imo.
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On March 12 2013 03:41 USvBleakill wrote:
APM has nothing to do with skill.
Not entirely true unless you're aiming at APM ''spamming''.
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I don't like this idea. It could be good maybe for ladder within a league (If you're 50 apm in silver, you get matched with other 50 apm silver players), but serious competition, forget it.
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Canada11349 Posts
Well first you would have to fix APM to mean Actions per Minute and not whatever it has been for the last 3 years...
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No, just no. I don't think you actually understand how APM works.
Go play a 5 minute game, then a 35 minute game, look at average APM.
Go look at a players APM in a 100 game spread.
APM changes.
What do you do if, at the 40 APM class, one person accidently shoots to 60 APM in just ONE intense engagement, because his adrenline is flowing? Is the game stopped, is he dqed?
APM isn't weight.
this is a really dumb discussion
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A friend of mine was rank 60 in grandmasters on NA for a long while with ~80 APM. Good decisions equal good wins. Having the speed to pull it off well is gravy
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On March 12 2013 08:33 Falling wrote:
Well first you would have to fix APM to mean Actions per Minute and not whatever it has been for the last 3 years...
They did that as of last patch
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It's way easier to gain APM than to gain weight. I don't see how someone could stay at 40 apm if they played a lot unless they were specifically trying to stay at sub 40 apm
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On March 12 2013 08:43 sUgArMaNiAc wrote:
A friend of mine was rank 60 in grandmasters on NA for a long while with ~80 APM. Good decisions equal good wins. Having the speed to pull it off well is gravy
But but that doesn't make sense! Why aren't my 300apm bronze friends at GM yet?!?
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His friend probably has korean blood, does your friend? Otherwise there is no hope
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Because unlike weight, you can fake APM. Also, APM =/= Skill, its how many actions you do per minute, a more effective stat would be EPM, but that doesn't even go into the other 90% of whats important e.g. strategy. Overall, worst idea i've heard all week.
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They're weight category in boxing because a 70kg dude could very well get physically hurt by a similary talented 100kg heavy weight.
How does that relate to e-Sports ?
There's no risk.
Besides, APM is a very weak approximation of fingers agility, and doesn't measure accuracy nor reaction time which are the 2 main pillars of skill.
A man instantly dodging storm with a single or two clicks is much more efficient that a retard freeclicking 5 secs too late and in the wrong direction.
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On March 12 2013 06:03 fourColo wrote:
How about playtime divisions? There's folks that have demanding jobs, but would still like to play competitively. They'll almost never be able to compete with anyone who plays ten times more than them though -- even with better practice methods, simple stuff like muscle memory and experience are so important. I think it would be pretty cool for tournaments for people who play < X hours a week or something.
Imagine if playtime had something to do with skill. Now, let's go out on a limb and say that skill has something to do with league... Holy crap! How about tournaments for lower leagues?!?!?
In my opinion, this thread is wasting bandwidth by being open.
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On March 12 2013 08:45 MattBarry wrote:
It's way easier to gain APM than to gain weight. I don't see how someone could stay at 40 apm if they played a lot unless they were specifically trying to stay at sub 40 apm
Would actually be quite funny. Protoss would probably be the best race, since zlot costs so much and can be 1a'd while the opponent would be APM capped and couldn't micro against it
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Because the majority of pros have high enough APM that it doesn't matter. Here's what would happen: it would be exactly the same as it is now, except some of the top pros who happen to have lower APM would win the slightly lower divisions, and people who suck at the game would win the lowest divisions and nobody would want to watch them play.
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I don't understand the comparison at all. Its like comparing apples to PCs.
Why is APM related to weight class? In your comparison, wouldn't APM be much more similar to speed/finesse of the boxer? I think you should write a thread in a boxing forum about how boxers should not be divided by weight classes but by how fast they are.
To bring the weight class thing into starcraft, we would probably have to put people into classes based on their internet connection quality and computer specs. That way, people with laggy and slow computers can compete with other people with laggy/slow computers.
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APM has only a weak correlation to performance. While weight can directly cause a certain performance in boxing.
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On March 12 2013 09:41 RifleCow wrote:
APM has only a weak correlation to performance. While weight can directly cause a certain performance in boxing.
Pretty much my thoughts. You can do all of the "smart" moves with comparably little APM....
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We already have different leagues and that keeps things competitive, so this idea is pointless.
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How has this thread been open this long? Everyone busy watching the hots stream? :X Weight correlates directly to performance (i.e. amount of weight lifted). APM does not. I'm pretty sure it's really as simple as that.
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I don't think I can control my APM. I fluctuate based on mood.
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This is the most redundant thing I've heard today... It's only 2 AM here but I think this is going to stay the most useless idea that I'm going to hear today. APM classes... Wow, gotta wrap your head around that one xD
Reminds me of that one time, when a friend of mine got kicked out of class because he was "too slow" when asked to pick up some paper from the ground...
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this idea is so out of the world .. i just dont know if the scene is big enough. who cares about some 40 apm kid champ? Everyone will be watching life tear up his enemies
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On March 12 2013 08:10 DanLee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 03:59 ffadicted wrote:
APM has 0 to do with almost anything related to starcraft skill, especially the new meaningless APM I hate to break it to you but apm has a lot to do with skill in regards to mechanics and unfortunately for your comment apm is more meaningful right now then it has ever been. Not only does it track actions on a real 60 second minute but it also counts camera keys as far as I know.
Regardless of your first argument about apm being relative to skill, no one can deny current APM means d*ck all lol
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This idea sounds fun to me, my viewing would greatly be skewed to the top players at my apm capabilities........could hurt the current pro scene though, because I believe there are many players like me that view to get better and to get new ideas, not simply for fun or to root for one team or the next
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How are you supposed to enforce an APM cap? Just stop allowing the player to issue commands until enough time has passed to keep them from going over it? Stupid...
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There was once I played against a bronze league for fun.
My keyboard broke and I could only use mouse click.
I used a warp prism dt tactics and won, I had to select the warp button and click the dt and place it to warp a single dt.
I checked the replay and he had apm over 600 moving the zerglings.
I only had 20 apm
Boxing weights limitation is there because weight affects lots of things, how heavy your punches are and how much you can take etc.
Apm doesn't, at least not as significant anyway
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APM definitely does correlate with skill. However it just isn't a definitive measure of who is the better player.
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3791 Posts
7 pages on this pointless thread?
okay let me ask you. When you determine player's APM "league" how do you prevent from playing at higher apms in the game?
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former G.s)KyO , Julyzerg ... will be a lonely league for them
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Austria24417 Posts
I don't really know if the two are comparable. I could beat a bronze player without using my keyboard, even in a 20 minute macro game probably. Having higher APM isn't necessarily connected with skill.
Also about the tournament idea, how many people would really watch a tournament of say your 40 APM division? I find online competitions with league restrictment like a Diamond or Gold League Cup more than enough. There should be more of these though, I for one had tons of fun playing in the LBNT cups for example.
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this is the most stupid thread i've seen on teamliquid in a very long time, it's simply totally dumb.
it is actually so retarded i don't even know what to say.
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On March 12 2013 16:26 Type|NarutO wrote:
former G.s)KyO , Julyzerg ... will be a lonely league for them
does he get paid to be champ in a league of 1?
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so what happens when a player goes over a certain apm? Does he just get disqualified? Does his keyboard stop working temporarily?
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3791 Posts
On March 12 2013 16:57 Chairman Ray wrote:
so what happens when a player goes over a certain apm? Does he just get disqualified? Does his keyboard stop working temporarily?
Screen goes blank for 10 seconds.
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The point of weight classes is to separate fighters who have an innate advantage over others. Kind of like how they have men's sports and women's sports. A featherweight will have little to no chance of ever beating a heavyweight, nor is there really anything he can do to put on the weight required to compete vs the heavyweight whilst still staying athletic.
How is APM an innate advantage? I don't think anyone can argue that as you improve your APM will increase (to an extent) so it is hard to argue that high APM is an inherent trait. You also can't argue against the fact that your APM may differ based on things such as race played, strategy used, whether you are tired. Not only that but it is easy for players to artificially inflate or deflate their APM if they really wanted to.
Pretty bad idea IMO and terrible comparison.
Edit: On March 12 2013 16:43 Toxi78 wrote:
this is the most stupid thread i've seen on teamliquid in a very long time, it's simply totally dumb.
it is actually so retarded i don't even know what to say.
What this guy said
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I think the apm!=skill people miss the point. The reason why weight classes exists is because weight does not equal skill. A lightweight champion is not less skilled than a heavyweight one, even if he would lose every match in direct competition.
And a 300 pound fat guy wouldn't stand a chance against a lightweight champion, just like a 300 apm bronze player wouldn't stand a chance against goody.
But i still think that it wouldn't make any sense in SC2 and i don't think that apm is the right comparison to the weight. apm is more like if you test the punch strength. There is no equation to weight in video games.
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Under your advice, it would be too easy to game the system, period. The really "close-enough" way to separate skills to play one another are based on match results. We can observe as third person and see that one player plays faster and that offers an advantage in micro or decision making, but that's an observer task. The player with high APM playing the game is facing an opponent seeded because he beats and loses to similar players.
We would have more variety and, I think it would be good for the game as far as international exposure is concerned. Koreans can dominate the high and no-limit divisions because their culture allows the volume of practice needed, and other countries can try and catch up because they can setup small-time scenes with low APM tournaments.
I mean, we can be sure at the time of this posting, the #1 no-APM-limit pro is Korean. But, once you put a limit, everything changes. A guy anywhere in the world can be 40 APM champion by strategy and efficiency --without the volume of practice/traning a no-limit guy needs.
So, is this a good idea?
How are you even close to proving that an APM system would gather more variety? A bunch of fast speed Koreans beating each other, and a bunch of mediocre players trying to improve their APM and only THEN their skill. Trolls in the lowest of the low maximizing cheese builds with absurd APM. They can farm unabated if they issue very precise commands at 50 APM.
What would even be the further point of divisions if you can win 50-50 at a higher spam speed (make no mistake, you can micro spam to defeat any EPM calculation) and get promoted? You want diamond? Just do X build with these kind of mechanics routines!! For a ladder system, it is a terrible idea.
For after-match analysis, it aint so bad. You can rate and compare Koreans with it, and foreigners as well. The possibility exists, but as yet I have not seen a forum frequenter making tiers for APM and declaring who's the best in the top 3 tiers.
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The apm of a player shouldnt be shown at all in the official sc2 client IMO. It suggests apm=skill to viewers when talked about, spamming commands in game and the measurement is messed up. (Other side effects: this thread, things like apmalert, etc.)
Please patch that thing out of the client Blizz!
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Furthermore to the points above me, it'd be impossible to police or even categorise.
APM varies. Heavily. My apm varies with intensity of game, length of game, which race I get (I play random) and all sorts, to the point where it varies between about 80-110, which would be a very broad category. If someone 2raxes/2gates me or something, then my apm is likely to be in the 150+ region for the start of the game. If I was in, say, a 80-120 APM class (which is very broad to start with), would I now be disqualified for playing above my category? It'd be like a boxer being weighed 12 months before, taking a ton of steroids and eating loads, putting on 20kg of muscle and then still fighting the same guy.
Also, you could play intentionally with a lower APM and just own every tournament cos you'd play against really bad players compared to yourself. Imagine Life or Creator etc playing at 40apm. Yeah, wouldnt be great to watch, but you can be damn sure their 40apm will be better than anyone elses!
I just don't think this is even slightly viable, there are so many holes in it as an idea.
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I disagree with you ginger. I think it's funny when specifically ST_Legend does it in GSL. Usually at the beginning of the game, where it is all just spam, and there is a huge disparity in APM #s. Notably I remember when one of the recent foreigners played in the GSL either Grubby, Mana or Stephano and it was like around 115(foreigner) to 320-400(korean), and then all you hear is the Korean casters in the background: "ooOooOoOOoo!!!" They might have a different obs than the english cast though, hard to say what they were really ooing at. But he did go back to the APM tab later that game and they were much more even.
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Apm dosen't give an advantage among professional players, weight does.
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How would you regulate that in game?
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I think a pro player would have no problem playing pretty decent with 40 apm or atleast with a ton less apm then they do. Just stop all the spamming and many of them already have half the apm most of the time.
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On March 12 2013 03:46 Don.681 wrote:
@USV
Yes, just like weight has nothing to with skill. But, a decent Flyweight Boxer wont stand a chance against a decent Heavyweight (they have the same "skill"), that's why they are separated by weight classes.
In the same way, a decent guy playing at 40APM wont stand a chance against a decent guy playing at 300 APM.
@Befree
Imagine a kiddie tournament with a savant kid dominating at 300+ APM. That wont be fun to watch for their parents, but imagine one where a limit is imposed. That savant kid would be at a pro or semi-pro league, and we can have some little-league competition where the kids would be happy.
I imagine, there would be a standard, coming out for the 40APM crowd in a few months.
Ah yea right, you have 400 apm but dumb decision making... much like your post: fast but dumb
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Baltimore, USA22253 Posts
What the hell? Fucking... no.
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EPT
