EPTEdit: To elaborate more people are saying APM = Speed and execution, which to some degree is true. However APM isn't a reflection of how well you execute a strategy, in fact you can have very high APM and be doing a build entirely wrong, slow, and inefficient. In a sense, there is no X amount of actions you need to be able to perform while doing any given thin in sc2 (so for instance I can't say in order to do the immortal sentry all-in vs zerg you need to have 150 apm or higher). APM is a reflection of how many things you clicked, it doesn't make those clicks meaningful.
Why not Treat APM like weight classes? - Page 2
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
Edit: To elaborate more people are saying APM = Speed and execution, which to some degree is true. However APM isn't a reflection of how well you execute a strategy, in fact you can have very high APM and be doing a build entirely wrong, slow, and inefficient. In a sense, there is no X amount of actions you need to be able to perform while doing any given thin in sc2 (so for instance I can't say in order to do the immortal sentry all-in vs zerg you need to have 150 apm or higher). APM is a reflection of how many things you clicked, it doesn't make those clicks meaningful. | ||
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Burgath
Hungary26 Posts
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote: This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem: In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play. The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap. For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored. | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote: This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem: In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play. I suppose it would have to be coded in. I wonder if it can be in a custom map, then all it takes is a tournament organizer to pick up the idea. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:55 ExO_ wrote: Distinguishing by APM is completely unnecessary, as not only do players APM vary by game but it does not have a direct correlation to skill. On March 12 2013 03:45 Befree wrote: Nor do weight classes. I don't think he argued anything remotely close to that in his post. | ||
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vaL4r
Germany240 Posts
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Don.681
Philippines189 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:50 Antoine wrote: This could be fun, but I do see a potential problem: In boxing, MMA, and the like, fighters are weighed once shortly before the event occurs, and there's no risk of them going way over during the fight (maybe a little over just from eating/drinking after the weighin). In StarCraft a player might normally play at like 35 APM, but have a spike in a game where they go up to, say, 43. Would it have to be average APM over the whole game? Would it be up to the player to try to ride the APM line, or should they have to go a class up if they aren't sure whether or not they'll go over the limit with normal play. What I am saying is that we would have guys training specifically for a given APM to be the world best at that APM. When these guys fight, APM would be regulated, so it would be the equivalent of "dynamic" weigh in. And, i am saying these type of fights would be like undercard fights of the big tournaments where no-limit guys fight. Normal day to day ladder and stuff is still no-limit, you would just have tournaments where you have the players focus on efficiency instead of steamrolling the opponent with speed. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:53 4tre55 wrote: Actually your execution speed is a big part of skill in sc2 and being able to make good desicions while playing that speed is antoerh big one. So actually, yes. I said that APM is not the same thing as skill, where in my post did I say that you don't need APM? | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:45 Befree wrote: Nor do weight classes. I don't think he argued anything remotely close to that in his post. I can see low APM limits being interesting for some sort of single novelty match, but I can't imagine a tournament utilizing it. It'd be too awkward and would require too much practice for something non-standard. But someone at 250 apm can lose to someone at 150 apm. Someone at 250 pounds will not lose to someone at 150 in a professional fight. It would be a mauling unless the 250 guy was incompetent. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On topic, as a spectator, I would probably only watch no limit and the lowest one (40 APM in this case). No limit for an obvious reason, and the lowest one is to see what strategies people go with such low APMs. Fine idea for non-broadcast competition, I'd say, but don't expect many viewers except for no limit division. | ||
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Armada Vega
Canada120 Posts
If you are both pros, and 1 player has higher apm, then the APM matters a tremendous amount. In the mid game, If for every action you do, if your opponent can do 4 in the same time frame, your in trouble. As theoretically, more macro and micro will be done compared to you. Outside of the pro scene however, I would agree that apm has little meaning. This is even more true for leagues lower then masters. People spam at the beginning only to stop or slow down when the game actually starts going. People don't understand the game completely, even at masters, in-where a lower apm player can outsmart a higher apm player and win, just with strategy or positioning. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2013 04:05 Armada Vega wrote: While APM alone does not define someones skill, in order to compete in the pro scene successfully, especially in korea, you do need a minimum average of 300 or higher. If you are both pros, and 1 player has higher apm, then the APM matters a tremendous amount. In the mid game, If for every action you do, if your opponent can do 4 in the same time frame, your in trouble. As theoretically, more macro and micro will be done compared to you. Outside of the pro scene however, I would agree that apm has little meaning. This is even more true for leagues lower then masters. People spam at the beginning only to stop or slow down when the game actually starts going. People don't understand the game completely, even at masters, in-where a lower apm player can outsmart a higher apm player and win, just with strategy or positioning. whitera would like a word. | ||
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FinalForm
United States450 Posts
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vaL4r
Germany240 Posts
On March 12 2013 04:05 Armada Vega wrote: (...) especially in korea, you do need a minimum average of 300 or higher.(...) Really? What's this magical rule? How come it's 300? Why not 299? or some other number. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
On March 12 2013 03:57 c0ldfusion wrote: The easy way to enforce that is just to check "continuously". (Blizzard would have to do it but it shouldn't be too bad.) Meaning, instead of trying to cap the APM for the whole game, which as you noted cannot be easily enforced, just make sure that the max APM is within the cap. For example, let's use a 60 APM cap. The game would just monitor your action second by second. If you try to perform an action within a second of your last action, it'll just be ignored. that's retarded and no one would watch that | ||
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14fighter
United States226 Posts
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paladin8
United States44 Posts
Personally, I think it's a valid question to ask, but there may be various practical reasons it can't happen, e.g. player pool too small, hard to define/enforce in a reasonable way. And certainly 7 groups would be way overdoing it, but I can see an argument for 2 or even 3. | ||
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