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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9964

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
February 23 2018 14:35 GMT
#199261
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:


Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.


Perhaps it's different in the US, but here in Sweden we would never expect a single officer to take on an unknown number of men with AR-15s with a single hand gun. The idea is that they are human beings, not hollywood characters.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21707 Posts
February 23 2018 14:36 GMT
#199262
On February 23 2018 23:35 Longshank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:


Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.


Perhaps it's different in the US, but here in Sweden we would never expect a single officer to take on an unknown number of men with AR-15s with a single hand gun. The idea is that they are human beings, not hollywood characters.

Obviously the solution is for every school to have its own swat team.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 23 2018 14:41 GMT
#199263
That also hits the nail on the head. Even if you had armed guards at the school, they won’t be carrying their own AR-15.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 23 2018 14:50 GMT
#199264
Never mind the fact that often after shootings there is mistaken identities and now imagine armed teachers, or confused guards gunning down a kid they thought was the shooter.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 23 2018 14:53 GMT
#199265
Just think of your favorite 50+ year old teacher and then give them a .45 and ask them to defend you from a kid with an AR-15.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 23 2018 14:55 GMT
#199266
On February 23 2018 23:35 Longshank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:


Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.


Perhaps it's different in the US, but here in Sweden we would never expect a single officer to take on an unknown number of men with AR-15s with a single hand gun. The idea is that they are human beings, not hollywood characters.

i'd say one key difference is how many civilians are in the area whose deaths/injuries could be averted/mitigated, especially when you're specifically assigned to guard that area. you don't need to take the assailant down to provide useful covering fire/safe zones/distraction. obviously i'ts far better to have mor enumbers when you engage; but if engaging sooner can give many others a chance to escape and will reduce overall losses then it's worth doing.
you don't need to charge in headfirst stupidly, but you can slowly approach the area of the shooter while taking cover.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
[DUF]MethodMan
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Germany1716 Posts
February 23 2018 14:56 GMT
#199267
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:
I agree that this cop is a great example of why giving "good guys guns" is such a shaky proposal. Frankly, unless you are trained to the level of a special operator in the military, or at least SWAT, I wouldn't trust you in a fire fight, let alone some well meaning teachers.

Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.

Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb.


Are you a cop? A veteran? Did you ever handle a firefight alone, nevermind outgunned? Seriously, people like you make everyone around the world look down upon the US and I bet you're even proud of it with that kind of hillbilly attitude. Who says this guy even is a genuine cop? Since when does actual police force secure schools? It's far more likely the guy is just one of the thousands of lookalike-cops you post around stores in the US rofl. "Step up during a time like that", my god.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
February 23 2018 14:56 GMT
#199268
A3th3r
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 15:01:04
February 23 2018 15:00 GMT
#199269
On February 23 2018 21:26 iamthedave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 20:17 Gorsameth wrote:
As others have said, its easy to think you will be the hero when you will never be put in his situation.
The guy is a school cop, he intimidates children by wearing a uniform and dangling cuffs infront of them. He is in no way trained to engage a maniac with a machine gun.
its easy to say you will be the hero, but go stand infront of that school while hearing the shots and screams and decide you go in there.
Guilt will destroy the rest of his life, suicide is a high probability.
Try having the tiniest bit of empathy.


Just responding to this one because there's a lot of posts that remind of this.

The problem I see with the US 'good guy with a gun' mentality is it's based on idealised fictional characters who weren't idealised in their original context.

Something that seems to have been slowly planed off the American conception of the lone gunman, the Eastwood hero, is that these people are almost always depicted as deeply damaged, lonely, barely functional human beings, permanently scarred by the lives they've lead to the point they're not able to be anything else. That's why most stories end with them riding on a horse away from civilisation into the wild west; they don't belong among people, and they know it. But it's that disconnection that allows them to be the hero so easily. They have nothing to live for, so it's easy for them to risk dying for something.

This sort of person is not a 'good guy' he's a sad, traumatised individual who has no future and little hope, and in our world would be referred to mental health services.

Even Hollywood action movie heroes don't usually present the good guy with the gun as these cool perfect dudes. Most are shown as struggling with keeping their lives together and/or to deal with things they've done in the past, before x plot reason forces them to fight again. And lets not forget that 90% of said heroes are trying to get away from lives of violence and don't actually want to fight at all.

Overall point being; the good guy with the gun mentality only works if you don't put ACTUALLY GOOD GUYS in that role. Because a lot of Actually Good Guys don't want to fire a gun at another person, and have better things to do today than risk death. Ex military people seem to be the 'right' person for these roles, ones who've actually seen combat and are both used to the idea they might get killed at any moment, and are (probably) aware of how to properly approach a known shooting location. But of course a lot of US military veterans have had quite enough of that thank you and would rather live a very normal life now.

One of the counterpoints we always hear is that 'guns don't kill people, people do'; there's truth to that. So you have to consider the people that are meant to be killing the people who absolutely are prepared to die, absolutely don't care, and aren't going to flinch when the shit goes down.

Intent. That matters a lot.


Agreed! I remember when the Columbine massacre occurred because I was in high school at the time & it really shook me up & made me take stock of things for a bit. There needs to be some changes made to the gun laws in this country
stale trite schlub
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 15:03:25
February 23 2018 15:02 GMT
#199270
On February 23 2018 23:56 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:
I agree that this cop is a great example of why giving "good guys guns" is such a shaky proposal. Frankly, unless you are trained to the level of a special operator in the military, or at least SWAT, I wouldn't trust you in a fire fight, let alone some well meaning teachers.

Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.

Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb.


Are you a cop? A veteran? Did you ever handle a firefight alone, nevermind outgunned? Seriously, people like you make everyone around the world look down upon the US and I bet you're even proud of it with that kind of hillbilly attitude. Who says this guy even is a genuine cop? Since when does actual police force secure schools? It's far more likely the guy is just one of the thousands of lookalike-cops you post around stores in the US rofl. "Step up during a time like that", my god.

odd to refer to one of the more leftist posters as having a hillbilly attitude

the actual police force secures schools in many places in america.
and by the sound of it, the people saying he's a genuine cop are the local sheriff. and if so you'd be just spouting off in total ignorance.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23250 Posts
February 23 2018 15:04 GMT
#199271
The point of putting attention on the cop that waited outside is to draw attention from the incompetent department that let the killer walk away from the school and wander town.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 15:07:32
February 23 2018 15:06 GMT
#199272
It also puts a keen point on the reality that a school shooting implicates a thick fog of war that renders any defense/counter scheme far more complicated than what seems apparent at first glance.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
February 23 2018 15:13 GMT
#199273
Man, I remember a couple of years ago when I found out about armed cops being stationed at campuses I thought it sounded like some dystopian sci fi trope.

Now people want to arm teachers... I'm sorry but the US is scarily far gone in this regard.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
February 23 2018 15:14 GMT
#199274
Does this mean we can now push for police to have somewhat decent training? No? That's insulting? Ok, thought so.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
February 23 2018 15:17 GMT
#199275
On February 23 2018 23:56 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:
I agree that this cop is a great example of why giving "good guys guns" is such a shaky proposal. Frankly, unless you are trained to the level of a special operator in the military, or at least SWAT, I wouldn't trust you in a fire fight, let alone some well meaning teachers.

Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.

Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb.


Are you a cop? A veteran? Did you ever handle a firefight alone, nevermind outgunned? Seriously, people like you make everyone around the world look down upon the US and I bet you're even proud of it with that kind of hillbilly attitude. Who says this guy even is a genuine cop? Since when does actual police force secure schools? It's far more likely the guy is just one of the thousands of lookalike-cops you post around stores in the US rofl. "Step up during a time like that", my god.


It was a real cop, not some untrained security guard. Also, police guarding schools is nothing new either, and is quite common.

If somebody thinks he shouldn't have gone in, then I assume you'd also agree schools all over the country might as well save money and fire their security officers since all it takes to make them useless is to start shooting.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23250 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 15:28:40
February 23 2018 15:26 GMT
#199276
I don't know , this cop seems pretty tough. I think he could have taken him.

+ Show Spoiler +


I guess I should say, yeah, I don't want cops in schools.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 23 2018 15:47 GMT
#199277
I would prefer local police have an officer that checks in at the school and receives training for how to communicate with students and the issues that they face. You know, like all the teachers have to do to keep their jobs. And find offices that want to fill that role. Otherwise is it just a warm body with a gun that doesn’t think the job worth their time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 15:53:46
February 23 2018 15:52 GMT
#199278
Well, you obviously need cops at schools. How else are you going to keep the slaves student athletes in check?

What the NCAA did in response to the lawsuit is as vile as anything going on in sports right now. I had to see it for myself before I believed it. At the root of its legal argument, the NCAA is relying on one particular case for why NCAA athletes should not be paid. That case is Vanskike v. Peters.

Only there’s an important detail: Daniel Vanskike was a prisoner at Stateville Correctional Center in Joliet, Illinois, and Howard Peters was the Director of the state Department of Corrections. In 1992, Vanskike and his attorneys argued that as a prisoner he should be paid a federal minimum wage for his work. The court, in its decision, cited the 13th Amendment and rejected the claim.

The 13th Amendment is commonly hailed as the law that finally ended slavery in America. But the amendment has an important carve-out: it kept involuntary service legal for those who have been convicted of a crime. “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction,” the amendment says. It’s that phrase — “except as a punishment for crime” — which allows American prisons to force their inmates to do whatever work they want or need them to do.

The use of the case stems from several other law cases alleging unpaid labor; two of them are previous lawsuits against the NCAA in which the case was cited as precedent, and the NCAA won.

The NCAA is showing an incorrigible nerve to use this case, Vanskike v. Peters, as one of its justifications for not paying student-athletes. The Vanskike case has been cited in the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals 14 times before, but in each of those 14 cases there were prisoners arguing that they should be paid a fair wage for their work.

Yet the NCAA wants to rely on this case and to call on the 13th Amendment. The body that runs college sports wants to use a justification for the slave labor of convicted criminals to justify its outrageous greed.

This is not just bad optics. It gets to the heart of what the multibillion-dollar enterprise that is the NCAA thinks not just of its athletes, but of its core business model. It is, in essence, admitting that student-athletes are working as slave laborers and as such do not deserve fair compensation.

Bigotry has a way of revealing itself. And that is exactly what the NCAA — by leaning on the case of a prisoner demanding he be paid as its justification for denying their athletes a wage of any kind — has done here. It has revealed itself to us.

Source
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 23 2018 15:57 GMT
#199279
kind of ironic south park did an episode with Cartman doing a sales pitch to the NCAA head dressed as a southern slave holder.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21707 Posts
February 23 2018 15:58 GMT
#199280
On February 24 2018 00:17 On_Slaught wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 23:56 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote:
I agree that this cop is a great example of why giving "good guys guns" is such a shaky proposal. Frankly, unless you are trained to the level of a special operator in the military, or at least SWAT, I wouldn't trust you in a fire fight, let alone some well meaning teachers.

Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo.

Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb.


Are you a cop? A veteran? Did you ever handle a firefight alone, nevermind outgunned? Seriously, people like you make everyone around the world look down upon the US and I bet you're even proud of it with that kind of hillbilly attitude. Who says this guy even is a genuine cop? Since when does actual police force secure schools? It's far more likely the guy is just one of the thousands of lookalike-cops you post around stores in the US rofl. "Step up during a time like that", my god.


It was a real cop, not some untrained security guard. Also, police guarding schools is nothing new either, and is quite common.

If somebody thinks he shouldn't have gone in, then I assume you'd also agree schools all over the country might as well save money and fire their security officers since all it takes to make them useless is to start shooting.

Ehm, yes?
I thought it was common knowledge that the rest of the world thinks that stationing cops inside schools is insane.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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