EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 9963
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
You want to know why American gun culture is so fucking awful you have a case to study right here of ordinary folks feeding into it. So many people worship the idea of being the hero without empathy or understanding, and it's hardly surprising if this attitude then leads some to murder. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23928 Posts
On February 23 2018 19:45 FuzzyJAM wrote: A police officer doesn't charge in alone against a homicidal AR-15 user and the response is "What an awful person for not going and killing him" rather than "How on Earth did we get to the stage where an ordinary police officer could be remotely expected to do that?" You want to know why American gun culture is so fucking awful you have a case to study right here of ordinary folks feeding into it. So many people worship the idea of being the hero without empathy or understanding, and it's hardly surprising if this attitude then leads some to murder. I personally don't blame the guy, the department letting the shooter walk around town for ~30 minutes after his massacre, yeah, that's a problem. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22308 Posts
The guy is a school cop, he intimidates children by wearing a uniform and dangling cuffs infront of them. He is in no way trained to engage a maniac with a machine gun. its easy to say you will be the hero, but go stand infront of that school while hearing the shots and screams and decide you go in there. Guilt will destroy the rest of his life, suicide is a high probability. Try having the tiniest bit of empathy. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On February 23 2018 20:17 Gorsameth wrote: As others have said, its easy to think you will be the hero when you will never be put in his situation. The guy is a school cop, he intimidates children by wearing a uniform and dangling cuffs infront of them. He is in no way trained to engage a maniac with a machine gun. its easy to say you will be the hero, but go stand infront of that school while hearing the shots and screams and decide you go in there. Guilt will destroy the rest of his life, suicide is a high probability. Try having the tiniest bit of empathy. Just responding to this one because there's a lot of posts that remind of this. The problem I see with the US 'good guy with a gun' mentality is it's based on idealised fictional characters who weren't idealised in their original context. Something that seems to have been slowly planed off the American conception of the lone gunman, the Eastwood hero, is that these people are almost always depicted as deeply damaged, lonely, barely functional human beings, permanently scarred by the lives they've lead to the point they're not able to be anything else. That's why most stories end with them riding on a horse away from civilisation into the wild west; they don't belong among people, and they know it. But it's that disconnection that allows them to be the hero so easily. They have nothing to live for, so it's easy for them to risk dying for something. This sort of person is not a 'good guy' he's a sad, traumatised individual who has no future and little hope, and in our world would be referred to mental health services. Even Hollywood action movie heroes don't usually present the good guy with the gun as these cool perfect dudes. Most are shown as struggling with keeping their lives together and/or to deal with things they've done in the past, before x plot reason forces them to fight again. And lets not forget that 90% of said heroes are trying to get away from lives of violence and don't actually want to fight at all. Overall point being; the good guy with the gun mentality only works if you don't put ACTUALLY GOOD GUYS in that role. Because a lot of Actually Good Guys don't want to fire a gun at another person, and have better things to do today than risk death. Ex military people seem to be the 'right' person for these roles, ones who've actually seen combat and are both used to the idea they might get killed at any moment, and are (probably) aware of how to properly approach a known shooting location. But of course a lot of US military veterans have had quite enough of that thank you and would rather live a very normal life now. One of the counterpoints we always hear is that 'guns don't kill people, people do'; there's truth to that. So you have to consider the people that are meant to be killing the people who absolutely are prepared to die, absolutely don't care, and aren't going to flinch when the shit goes down. Intent. That matters a lot. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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oBlade
United States6090 Posts
On February 23 2018 15:50 Slaughter wrote: That is one thing I chalk up to American Exceptionalism, the fact that a lot of civilians seem to think they will be useful in these types of situations when they are extreme situations that even professionals screw up on a fair amount of occasions. The NRA just capitalized on this and pushed the idea. Most gun owners I know really don't agree with the a lot of what the NRA says politically but just use them as the effective tool they are from not having their gun rights infringed upon. American exceptionalism is a concept about the country not that random Americans individually think they have especially more cool under fire and better aim. But a point of interest, mass shooters are often civilians and they seem to be effective enough. I don't blame that guy for not going in without backup, because my not knowing all that happened, his job isn't to commit suicide, but I can also imagine cases for blaming people in such situations. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On February 23 2018 22:19 oBlade wrote:But a point of interest, mass shooters are often civilians and they seem to be effective enough. I am not an expert on firearm handling but I would think the fact that a mass shooter is specifically intending collateral damage, as opposed to being obliged to avoid it, makes their task much easier. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 23 2018 22:23 Aquanim wrote: I am not an expert on firearm handling but I would think the fact that a mass shooter is specifically intending collateral damage, as opposed to being obliged to avoid it, makes their task much easier. Yes. It is way easier to use a gun if you don’t give a shit what you hit. | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
On February 23 2018 22:23 Aquanim wrote: I am not an expert on firearm handling but I would think the fact that a mass shooter is specifically intending collateral damage, as opposed to being obliged to avoid it, makes their task much easier. To add to this, you're not going to make smart decisions when you're panicking and trying to keep collateral damage low. If teachers don't care about keeping collateral damage low, then there's no reason for them to even carry a gun or even be a teacher. It would suggest a problem with their mentality. Even the police aren't even particularly good at close range encounters. To put hit ratios into perspective, the NYPD had a hit ratio of only 34 percent in the time period of 1996 to 2006. The LAPD managed similar ~30% hit ratios in 2006 as well. Around half of these shots were discharged at distances lower than 6 feet. Introducing more guns to teachers is honestly a problem waiting to happen and I don't know why people are even suggesting it. You're creating future issues related to improper firearms handling, you're introducing deadly weapons that emotional students can steal and it automatically creates an uneasy environment for everyone involved. The minute a discharge happens, people aren't going to react rationally and having a faculty full of panicking armed individuals is a recipe for disaster. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo. Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22308 Posts
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote: Again, its not unlikely at all that he thought he would be able to do it every day of his career until that fateful day.I agree that this cop is a great example of why giving "good guys guns" is such a shaky proposal. Frankly, unless you are trained to the level of a special operator in the military, or at least SWAT, I wouldn't trust you in a fire fight, let alone some well meaning teachers. Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo. Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb. No one knows how they will react in that situation until it happens to them | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On February 23 2018 23:18 On_Slaught wrote: I agree that this cop is a great example of why giving "good guys guns" is such a shaky proposal. Frankly, unless you are trained to the level of a special operator in the military, or at least SWAT, I wouldn't trust you in a fire fight, let alone some well meaning teachers. Having said that, I'm shocked people are defending this guy so much. This guy spent decades basking in the power of being a cop. If he didn't understand that the price of getting all that power is that you are to run torwards the bullets, then he is a fool, or worse. There is nothing wrong with being unsure how one would react in that situation. But we aren't cops. If you don't think you could step up during a time like that, you have no business being a cop, imo. Also, regarding protocol of waiting, his own Sheriff said he should have gone in. He knew they layout of the school and would not have been some lost lamb. Again, what kind of a crazy country expects regular police officers to get into genuine gunfights and missions to kill people by themselves? Do you not see the massive problem with this? | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22308 Posts
On February 23 2018 23:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://twitter.com/AP/status/967039174116339712 Like clockwork, roughly every 2 days. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On February 23 2018 23:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Again, what kind of a crazy country expects regular police officers to get into genuine gunfights and missions to kill people by themselves? Do you not see the massive problem with this? The United States is that kind of crazy country; it's no coincidence that Cops is one of the longest running shows on US networks. The mindset that spawns "I'm only gonna need government assistance for a few months and then I'm gonna be a millionaire; cut public benefits!" is oftentimes the same one that sees public violence and thinks, " I could have stopped him!" | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On February 23 2018 23:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://twitter.com/AP/status/967039174116339712 IIRC, there is solid science that a large part of the reason these mass shootings happen is for publicity and that if news didn't blow them up for advertisement dollars every time we'd see a lot less shooters. Not sure the cat can be put back in the bag though... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
The NPR politics podcast this week is very good and talks gives some more context to the interviews and town halls that were held. The best quote heard was that the gun debate was like putting a born against Christian and hard line atheists in a room and asking them to come to an agreement on how Jesus was. | ||
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