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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24500 Posts
December 18 2017 04:59 GMT
#191041
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 18 2017 05:50 GMT
#191042
I heard McCain won't be around to vote on the tax bill (going to hospital in Arizona). Didn't see any official source but it sounded right to me
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5082 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 07:50:42
December 18 2017 07:49 GMT
#191043
Super, super long article in Politico that is very interesting. They would have done anything for an Iran deal.

The secret backstory of how Obama let Hezbollah off the hook

In its determination to secure a nuclear deal with Iran, the Obama administration derailed an ambitious law enforcement campaign targeting drug trafficking by the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah, even as it was funneling cocaine into the United States, according to a POLITICO investigation.

The campaign, dubbed Project Cassandra, was launched in 2008 after the Drug Enforcement Administration amassed evidence that Hezbollah had transformed itself from a Middle East-focused military and political organization into an international crime syndicate that some investigators believed was collecting $1 billion a year from drug and weapons trafficking, money laundering and other criminal activities.

Over the next eight years, agents working out of a top-secret DEA facility in Chantilly, Virginia, used wiretaps, undercover operations and informants to map Hezbollah’s illicit networks, with the help of 30 U.S. and foreign security agencies.

They followed cocaine shipments, some from Latin America to West Africa and on to Europe and the Middle East, and others through Venezuela and Mexico to the United States. They tracked the river of dirty cash as it was laundered by, among other tactics, buying American used cars and shipping them to Africa. And with the help of some key cooperating witnesses, the agents traced the conspiracy, they believed, to the innermost circle of Hezbollah and its state sponsors in Iran.

But as Project Cassandra reached higher into the hierarchy of the conspiracy, Obama administration officials threw an increasingly insurmountable series of roadblocks in its way, according to interviews with dozens of participants who in many cases spoke for the first time about events shrouded in secrecy, and a review of government documents and court records. When Project Cassandra leaders sought approval for some significant investigations, prosecutions, arrests and financial sanctions, officials at the Justice and Treasury departments delayed, hindered or rejected their requests.

The Justice Department declined requests by Project Cassandra and other authorities to file criminal charges against major players such as Hezbollah’s high-profile envoy to Iran, a Lebanese bank that allegedly laundered billions in alleged drug profits, and a central player in a U.S.-based cell of the Iranian paramilitary Quds force. And the State Department rejected requests to lure high-value targets to countries where they could be arrested.

“This was a policy decision, it was a systematic decision,” said David Asher who helped establish and oversee Project Cassandra as a Defense Department illicit finance analyst. “They serially ripped apart this entire effort that was very well supported and resourced, and it was done from the top down.”
The untold story of Project Cassandra illustrates the immense difficulty in mapping and countering illicit networks in an age where global terrorism, drug trafficking and organized crime have merged, but also the extent to which competing agendas among government agencies — and shifting priorities at the highest levels — can set back years of progress.

And while the pursuit may be shadowed in secrecy, from Latin American luxury hotels to car parks in Africa to the banks and battlefields of the Middle East, the impact is not: In this case, multi-ton loads of cocaine entering the United States, and hundreds of millions of dollars going to a U.S.-designated terrorist organization with vast reach.

Obama had entered office in 2009 promising to improve relations with Iran as part of a broader rapprochement with the Muslim world. On the campaign trail, he had asserted repeatedly that the Bush administration’s policy of pressuring Iran to stop its illicit nuclear program wasn’t working, and that he would reach out to Tehran to reduce tensions.

The man who would become Obama’s top counterterrorism adviser and then CIA director, John Brennan
, went further. He recommended in a policy paper that “the next president has the opportunity to set a new course for relations between the two countries” through not only a direct dialogue, but “greater assimilation of Hezbollah into Lebanon’s political system.”

By May 2010, Brennan, then assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism, confirmed in a speech that the administration was looking for ways to build up “moderate elements” within Hezbollah.

“Hezbollah is a very interesting organization,” Brennan told a Washington conference, saying it had evolved from “purely a terrorist organization” to a militia and, ultimately, a political party with representatives in the Lebanese Parliament and Cabinet, according to a Reuters report.

“There is certainly the elements of Hezbollah that are truly a concern to us what they’re doing,” Brennan said. “And what we need to do is to find ways to diminish their influence within the organization and to try to build up the more moderate elements.”

In practice, the administration’s willingness to envision a new role for Hezbollah in the Middle East, combined with its desire for a negotiated settlement to Iran’s nuclear program, translated into a reluctance to move aggressively against the top Hezbollah operatives, according to Project Cassandra members and others.

Lebanese arms dealer Ali Fayad, a suspected top Hezbollah operative whom agents believed reported to Russian President Vladimir Putin as a key supplier of weapons to Syria and Iraq, was arrested in Prague in the spring of 2014. But for the nearly two years Fayad was in custody, top Obama administration officials declined to apply serious pressure on the Czech government to extradite him to the United States, even as Putin was lobbying aggressively against it.

Fayad, who had been indicted in U.S. courts on charges of planning the murders of U.S. government employees, attempting to provide material support to a terrorist organization and attempting to acquire, transfer and use anti-aircraft missiles, was ultimately sent to Beirut. He is now believed by U.S. officials to be back in business, and helping to arm militants in Syria and elsewhere with Russian heavy weapons.


Politico

I'd post more, but the sidebars make copy paste annoying. This is such a small part of the whole thing anyways.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
December 18 2017 08:59 GMT
#191044
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24500 Posts
December 18 2017 09:31 GMT
#191045
On December 18 2017 17:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.


Thinking it's a "safe statement" is an important part of how we got Trump in the first place.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22700 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 10:19:38
December 18 2017 10:16 GMT
#191046
On December 18 2017 13:33 m4ini wrote:
The interesting question is, does that make him a smart or a weak politician?

Genuinely btw, i'm not sure what i think of that.

Imo a politician should be willing to state what his opinion is on a bill. His constituents have a right to know how their representative would vote and an unwillingness to do that would, imo, signal that he knows he wouldn't be acting in their best interest.

On December 18 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 17:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.


Thinking it's a "safe statement" is an important part of how we got Trump in the first place.

Exactly. Remember Trump is praised by his voters for this 'strait talking', hilarious tho that concept is in the face of Trump, because politicians to often give these safe non-committal statements on where they stand.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 10:44:46
December 18 2017 10:44 GMT
#191047
On December 18 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 17:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.


Thinking it's a "safe statement" is an important part of how we got Trump in the first place.

That makes no sense to me, could you explain what you mean? What I mean is it's a safe statement as in it's not going to antagonize anyone. The election was last year, what is there to be gained by pushing (futilely) for Trump to step down *right now*?

If there was an election going on right now I would agree with you completely, but especially for someone in such a red state, it seems much smarter to pick your battles carefully to maxmize your impact.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24500 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 12:05:28
December 18 2017 11:01 GMT
#191048
On December 18 2017 19:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 17:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.


Thinking it's a "safe statement" is an important part of how we got Trump in the first place.

That makes no sense to me, could you explain what you mean? What I mean is it's a safe statement as in it's not going to antagonize anyone. The election was last year, what is there to be gained by pushing (futilely) for Trump to step down *right now*?

If there was an election going on right now I would agree with you completely, but especially for someone in such a red state, it seems much smarter to pick your battles carefully to maxmize your impact.


Gorsameth points out one aspect. Another would be this disgusting pile of human waste was just polite company and a piggy bank for the same people who told us Armageddon was coming if he was president and he was collaborating with an enemy nation just before they handed over the codes to our nuclear arsenal to him and gave him a tour of the White House with a smile. People don't take your word seriously if you do stuff like that.

There's 1000 things one could point at on either side of the aisle to see how this mealy-mouthed crap is detrimental to a properly functioning government.

On December 18 2017 20:44 micronesia wrote:
He might behave in a way you see less objectionable once he's actually sworn into his job.


Yes
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24809 Posts
December 18 2017 11:44 GMT
#191049
He might behave in a way you see less objectionable once he's actually sworn into his job.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
December 18 2017 12:51 GMT
#191050
On December 18 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 17:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.


Thinking it's a "safe statement" is an important part of how we got Trump in the first place.

I would agree with this if Republicans didn't take statements out of context and flood the air waves with propaganda about his abortion stance just a month ago. What you don't say actually is important in the fake news era.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22700 Posts
December 18 2017 12:55 GMT
#191051
On December 18 2017 21:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 17:59 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.

I don't see what positive impact taking a hard public stance on either of these things would have at this point. The accusations, as they stand right now, are not going to bring Trump out of office - he was elected with those very same accusations on full display.

I also can't really see what positive impact him saying "I'm a hard no on the tax bill" would have. If he actually ends up voting for the bill, or if there's a legitimate opportunity to get rid of Trump in the face of new evidence and he maintains this line of ambivalance, then yes there's a problem, but for now it just seems like a safe statement.


Thinking it's a "safe statement" is an important part of how we got Trump in the first place.

I would agree with this if Republicans didn't take statements out of context and flood the air waves with propaganda about his abortion stance just a month ago. What you don't say actually is important in the fake news era.

If you have no regard for the truth anything can be chopped and contorted to be say whatever you want.
If your worried about that you can't ever open your mouth. And then they will twist that to fit their narrative.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 18 2017 13:06 GMT
#191052
On December 18 2017 13:33 m4ini wrote:
The interesting question is, does that make him a smart or a weak politician?

Genuinely btw, i'm not sure what i think of that.

smart and weak don't seem to be opposing terms;
it's a very typical stance for a politician to hedge; unsurprising as hedging is generally a diplomatic move meant to avoid offending people.

while it may not be his stance; another stance one can go with is the simple: "I just got elected, i'm not even sworn in yet, and I haven't had time to fully look over the legislation yet." + some words about how some people like it and some are deeply concerned.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
December 18 2017 14:42 GMT
#191053
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that conservative state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I'm not venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


We get a Southern Dem/ Blue Dog elected and he's not even sworn in yet and we're gonna shit on him. Classic liberal/ Democrat/ left.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 14:53:12
December 18 2017 14:53 GMT
#191054
On December 18 2017 23:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that conservative state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I'm not venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


We get a Southern Dem/ Blue Dog elected and he's not even sworn in yet and we're gonna shit on him. Classic liberal/ Democrat/ left.

Meanwhile, people on the right complain about RINOs.
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
December 18 2017 16:02 GMT
#191055
On December 18 2017 23:53 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 23:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that conservative state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I'm not venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


We get a Southern Dem/ Blue Dog elected and he's not even sworn in yet and we're gonna shit on him. Classic liberal/ Democrat/ left.

Meanwhile, people on the right complain about RINOs.


It's the hipster effect on politics. I hated Jones before you guys did.
I am, therefore I pee
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Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
December 18 2017 16:06 GMT
#191056
On December 19 2017 01:02 Trainrunnef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 23:53 Gahlo wrote:
On December 18 2017 23:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that conservative state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I'm not venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


We get a Southern Dem/ Blue Dog elected and he's not even sworn in yet and we're gonna shit on him. Classic liberal/ Democrat/ left.

Meanwhile, people on the right complain about RINOs.


It's the hipster effect on politics. I hated Jones before you guys did.


I see it as uh the opposite. It's people complaining the lefty dems aren't acting like a lot of the republican base/alt-right and only caring about winning as if it was all some sort of game where it's just a matter of winning or losing.
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DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46679 Posts
December 18 2017 16:53 GMT
#191057
On December 18 2017 23:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that conservative state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I'm not venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


We get a Southern Dem/ Blue Dog elected and he's not even sworn in yet and we're gonna shit on him. Classic liberal/ Democrat/ left.


What do you mean by this? It sounds like you're saying it's very common for liberals to not give potential allies a chance and preemptively hate on them or dismiss them, more frequently than conservatives (or a different political group) might jump to conclusions about these kinds of things.

What other examples do you have of this that would make this a serious stereotype for Democrats? From what I've seen with Obama and some other Democratic leaders, their idealism often times makes them more open to seeking bipartisan compromise or at least welcoming more people into the conversation (for better or for worse), which I feel isn't consistent with your statement that rejecting potential allies is a "classic liberal" move.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46679 Posts
December 18 2017 16:57 GMT
#191058
On December 18 2017 13:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2017 13:57 Aquanim wrote:
I don't think it's inherently wrong or a betrayal for Jones to make some concessions to his more conservative Alabama electorate in the hopes of getting re-elected. An Alabama senator voting with the Democrats sometimes is better than one that doesn't at all, and the notion that a generally conservative state can elect a Democrat and said Democrat won't immediately turn around and take a dump all over that red state's policy preferences doesn't seem like a bad notion to cultivate for any similar situations that occur in the future.

That being said, I don't feel like venturing an opinion on whether this tax bill is the time or place for such a thing. Just saying that I disagree with the absolute hardline approach which some here may or may not espouse.


I take the general point but find it pretty irrelevant to this situation.

It's not like either the sexual abuse or the tax scam is "taking a hard line" it's just being a remotely decent human being.


I understand Aquanim's perspective from a practical sense, and I also agree with you that if Doug Jones actually takes the time to lay out why he's against some of the conservative propositions- specifically explaining how it's bad for Alabama and how it's his job to support and not screw over his constituents- it would hopefully be accepted by some Alabamans as a position of being a "remotely decent human being" as opposed to him just blindly voting with the other Democrats. That communication is probably easier said than done though, so I think being cautious is good.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-18 17:15:43
December 18 2017 17:04 GMT
#191059
Jones needs to pick him moment to talk about the tax bill and other conservatives positions. He also can't appear to be attempting to please far left democrats outside his state. He can't just go grab the mic like he is interrupting T Swift.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 18 2017 17:29 GMT
#191060
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