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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
December 02 2017 17:13 GMT
#187921
On December 03 2017 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 01:51 kollin wrote:
On December 03 2017 01:46 Sermokala wrote:
On December 03 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:
The most important and impactful feature of the tax bill is the slashing of corporate tax rates, which needs to happen. Most everything else is a comparative rounding error. All of the hysteria surrounding this bill is grossly unwarranted.

But xdaunt if they don't pass a budget at all for the ten years the worst thing that will happen is that the debt will go up by a whole trillion dollars. That means america will be a third world nation and civil war will happen. Don't forget great depression guaranteed if they don't pass a new budget for the next few years for some reason.

Is it not 1.5 trillion to the budget deficit, which is effectively tripling it?


I'm reading it as "Will add ~1.5 trillion to the deficit by 2027" not the debt as well.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/costestimate/reconciliationrecommendationssfc.pdf

EDIT: The point is to use the deficit to justify social cuts anyway.

Create the crisis and demand we solve it their way.

The arrogance of right-wingers oblivious to reality never, ever ceases to amaze. Though of course you're right.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
December 02 2017 17:13 GMT
#187922
Remind me how long the ACA was up for scrutiny again? How many hearings were had, how much analysis was done, how many changes were made because Republicans didn't want it to pass unabated?

It's a complete disgrace. This thing was slapped together as a slap in the face, scribbled on throughout the day by lobbyists, and passed in the middle of the night so that nobody would notice. Pardon me if I don't feel terribly inspired by our GOP representatives right now.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42455 Posts
December 02 2017 17:15 GMT
#187923
We'll see what emerges from House/Senate reconciliation but as it stands the tax exempted income for poor families is being reduced (despite what Danglars says) and the lowest tax bracket is being raised from 10% to 12%. So if you're poor and have kids then more of your income is being taxed, and at a 20% higher rate.

Taxing noncash employee benefits as if they were cash is pretty fucked up too. A tax bill on money you never actually got. Most of you probably get employer paid/subsidized health insurance, or at the very least have your contributions taken out pre-tax. It'd be like if they started calling all of that income, and charged you your marginal tax rate on it.

Also there's some weird stuff like raising the child tax credit limits so people in the richest 10% of families can get it, and taxing university scholarship funds.

It's all just fucked up.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5491 Posts
December 02 2017 17:18 GMT
#187924
On December 03 2017 01:52 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:
The most important and impactful feature of the tax bill is the slashing of corporate tax rates, which needs to happen. Most everything else is a comparative rounding error. All of the hysteria surrounding this bill is grossly unwarranted.


And why does the slashing of corporate tax rate need to happen? Or do you just say that because of your "uhm a republican, eye need dis!" mentality? Or do you have a reasonable and for once FACTUAL reason for saying this?

Taxes should be one of the most sterile and boring policy issues to disagree about, one of the least potentially offensive. You should not operate from an attitude that there's not a reasonable way for someone to disagree with your side, or worse with he status quo, about something so basic.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 02 2017 17:19 GMT
#187925
On December 03 2017 02:05 Nevuk wrote:
Did any corporation actually pay the full tax rate anyways?

no.
the effective rate is much lower than the nominal rate; just how much lower is disputed. maybe half as much or thereabouts.

there's of course bound to be some corp somewhere paying something close to the full rate.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 02 2017 17:21 GMT
#187926
On December 03 2017 02:18 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 01:52 hunts wrote:
On December 03 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:
The most important and impactful feature of the tax bill is the slashing of corporate tax rates, which needs to happen. Most everything else is a comparative rounding error. All of the hysteria surrounding this bill is grossly unwarranted.


And why does the slashing of corporate tax rate need to happen? Or do you just say that because of your "uhm a republican, eye need dis!" mentality? Or do you have a reasonable and for once FACTUAL reason for saying this?

Taxes should be one of the most sterile and boring policy issues to disagree about, one of the least potentially offensive. You should not operate from an attitude that there's not a reasonable way for someone to disagree with your side, or worse with he status quo, about something so basic.

and he did not operate from such an attitude, so while your point is sound, i'm not seeing the relevance of it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42455 Posts
December 02 2017 17:23 GMT
#187927
A lot of the criticism of things like Facebook tax dodging is simply because they moved the tax burden to the executives through overpaying them. The executives then paid income tax and so the IRS still got its due. But you wouldn't realize that from the news reported.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 02 2017 17:31 GMT
#187928
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8033 Posts
December 02 2017 18:14 GMT
#187929
On December 03 2017 02:31 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/937007006526959618


I too lie when I have nothing to hide.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 02 2017 18:15 GMT
#187930
trump complaining about people lying, ahahahahaha.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 18:42:53
December 02 2017 18:42 GMT
#187931
On December 03 2017 03:14 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 02:31 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/937007006526959618


I too lie when I have nothing to hide.


To be fair Flynn and Trump are both potentially dumb enough to lie when they have nothing to hide. It's basically a character trait for them. Flynn especially is like Manafort, but far far dumber.

Doubt they did here though.
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 18:52:21
December 02 2017 18:51 GMT
#187932
On December 03 2017 02:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 01:51 kollin wrote:
On December 03 2017 01:46 Sermokala wrote:
On December 03 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:
The most important and impactful feature of the tax bill is the slashing of corporate tax rates, which needs to happen. Most everything else is a comparative rounding error. All of the hysteria surrounding this bill is grossly unwarranted.

But xdaunt if they don't pass a budget at all for the ten years the worst thing that will happen is that the debt will go up by a whole trillion dollars. That means america will be a third world nation and civil war will happen. Don't forget great depression guaranteed if they don't pass a new budget for the next few years for some reason.

Is it not 1.5 trillion to the budget deficit, which is effectively tripling it?


I'm reading it as "Will add ~1.5 trillion to the deficit by 2027" not the debt as well.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/costestimate/reconciliationrecommendationssfc.pdf

EDIT: The point is to use the deficit to justify social cuts anyway.

Create the crisis and demand we solve it their way. Then the next Bill Clinton is supposed to oblige them again.

It's to the debt. Adding 1.4t to the deficit would be insane. The macro impact of the bill really us not as large as people make it.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 18:59:41
December 02 2017 18:58 GMT
#187933
On December 03 2017 02:31 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/937007006526959618


The saddest part is that his voters will take him at his word.

I will give him credit though, this was a pretty coherently written tweet. I suspect it wasn't written by him.
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
December 02 2017 19:00 GMT
#187934
On December 03 2017 01:52 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:
The most important and impactful feature of the tax bill is the slashing of corporate tax rates, which needs to happen. Most everything else is a comparative rounding error. All of the hysteria surrounding this bill is grossly unwarranted.


And why does the slashing of corporate tax rate need to happen? Or do you just say that because of your "uhm a republican, eye need dis!" mentality? Or do you have a reasonable and for once FACTUAL reason for saying this?

The treatment of corporate taxes in the bill isn't as simple as just cutting the tax rate, though that's part of it. The current tax system is 30 years old, which means it was designed for a different economy and corporations have had 30 years to figure out how to play around it. Consequently, the status quo provides (and corporations take advantage of) all sorts of backwards incentives not to invest in the US and to shift intellectual property overseas.

Saying "we're at full employment" is sort of a red herring. More investment opportunities still means a more dynamic economy because workers have more choices in employment opportunities, and the employers with the most productive opportunities can pay more to attract workers.
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 19:03:55
December 02 2017 19:03 GMT
#187935
On December 03 2017 02:31 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/937007006526959618


"...he lied to the Vice President AND THE FBI"

He literally just said that he knew Flynn had lied to the FBI BEFORE he fired him. Hence the pressure on comey to let it go. Holy shit. Lawyers will have a field day with this tweet when the time comes.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7879 Posts
December 02 2017 19:15 GMT
#187936
Sooo, they pulled their usual great heist. “A party that exploit white resentment to get elected by people they screw over in order to fill the pockets of a class of extremely wealthy donors” sums up as well as ever the GOP. Now you would have thought Frankenstein’s monster had escaped his creator when white resentment became an end in itself and got elected, but apparently Trump has no problem being both a convinced populist and a cleptocrat.

I guess rural america will keep getting shittier, people will keep blaming the liberal elite and not the fuckers who took their healthcare and reversed robin hood them and will keep voting for cynical clowns that will tell them it’s all because of the muslims and the mexicans.

Human misery.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 02 2017 19:15 GMT
#187937
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
December 02 2017 19:27 GMT
#187938
On December 03 2017 04:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/937017680787394567


Lol exactly what I just said 😂
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-02 19:42:01
December 02 2017 19:35 GMT
#187939
On December 03 2017 04:00 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2017 01:52 hunts wrote:
On December 03 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:
The most important and impactful feature of the tax bill is the slashing of corporate tax rates, which needs to happen. Most everything else is a comparative rounding error. All of the hysteria surrounding this bill is grossly unwarranted.


And why does the slashing of corporate tax rate need to happen? Or do you just say that because of your "uhm a republican, eye need dis!" mentality? Or do you have a reasonable and for once FACTUAL reason for saying this?

The treatment of corporate taxes in the bill isn't as simple as just cutting the tax rate, though that's part of it. The current tax system is 30 years old, which means it was designed for a different economy and corporations have had 30 years to figure out how to play around it. Consequently, the status quo provides (and corporations take advantage of) all sorts of backwards incentives not to invest in the US and to shift intellectual property overseas.

Saying "we're at full employment" is sort of a red herring. More investment opportunities still means a more dynamic economy because workers have more choices in employment opportunities, and the employers with the most productive opportunities can pay more to attract workers.


You have it fundamentally backward. Investment is totally driven by profitability. A short supply of labor increases labor costs and hurts profitability. There won't simply be "more employment opportunities" because nobody invests in something without a clear idea of whether it will be profitable. This is why your "I'm a statistics expert and I am using simple logic to explain how capitalism works" (while accusing everyone else, mind you, of being ideologically brainwashed) is so ironic. You need to update your analytical ideas toolbox.

The irony is doubled because your rationale for the corporate tax overhaul is that it is 30 years old and "outdated" but you still believe that capitalism fundamentally operates in the same way as it did 150 years ago. Arguably, 300 years ago, when America had a labor shortage, a vast frontier with untapped natural resources, and established and growing(!) markets to sell new products, your argument might have had some truth in it. Now you are just operating on blind faith, without even the benefit of having read and synthesized the fundamental insights (Adam Smith, Hayek, etc.) from which your "logical" arguments derive.

As an aside, I have no idea what your reference to intellectual property is even about. Intellectual property is immaterial. It can't be "shifted" anywhere. Only legitimated. And by all accounts the American intellectual property regime is the broadest and most expansive in the world.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 02 2017 19:40 GMT
#187940
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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