|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Even post-Trump, the GOP has managed to find a new low. If they only had the expediency, care, and passion for protecting democracy as they do for giving "economic freedom" to billionaire inheritances. The GOP is now simply a shill-organization for international money. Probably has been for decades. If you're not exporting jobs to your factory in Bangladesh, and you're still acting like a Republican, you are a colossal, meaningless moron.
|
On December 02 2017 20:06 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 20:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 02 2017 19:40 Kyadytim wrote:On December 02 2017 19:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 02 2017 19:11 Kyadytim wrote:On December 02 2017 18:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 02 2017 18:34 Kyadytim wrote:On December 02 2017 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:
If you don't elect a progressive in 2020 I think the world should just give up on your country, to be honest I just spent about an hour talking about this with a few liberal friends. We were trying to work out ways in which the country doesn't collapse or become a hellhole until after we've died, and it wasn't really good. Reality doesn't seem to matter in elections anymore, reasonable economic ideas can all be slandered as communism, people are voting for Moore because they're convinced Democrats are pure evil, and it seems like Republicans can trump any economic platform with appeals to moral panic or racist attacks. One of the guys involved in the discussion has this theory that the rich are eventually going to exterminate most of the rest of us via enforcement of property rights and owning literally everything, which this tax bill just took a big step in helping to come true. I don't really feel like trying to explain the whole thing, but it was really hard to argue against the idea that in some fashion in the next 30 to 40 years the US is going to either fall apart or become a third world-ish hell where the only people with decent lives are the aristocrats and the people working for them while everyone else struggles to survive on the scraps. Electing a progressive to President isn't good enough. We need to elect a progressive Congress, too, and start making immediate and large movements towards less inequality, less money in politics, and a stronger safety net. Problem is, progressive economics has been slandered as communism for so long, and Democrats as a whole aren't a progressive party. Back in 2016, before the election, I thought things have been getting worse and Clinton would at least slow the bleeding, and so wasn't terrible. Now the bleeding is a hemorrhage, and the sort of policies Clinton espoused aren't going to cut it. Republicans have been using this "we need to stop liberalism here or we're lost" rhetoric, but I'm starting to become convinced that if liberals don't stop the Republican economic-political engine in it's tracks by the end of the 2020 elections, it's going to become an unstoppable force. At the very least, that sort of apocalyptic rhetoric has worked for Republicans, so it can't hurt for liberals to adopt it. One consensus issue between all of us is that we're probably looking at another great depression by around 2030 if this tax bill doesn't get more or less totally reversed in 2021. Well, there's the vague hope that the House and Senate can't manage to agree on anything and it never becomes law, but this isn't like healthcare where they knew that what they said they were doing was terrible but had promised to do it and were hoping to be able to offload the blame. This time, they wholeheartedly want this. They totally sold out America to the rich, and they didn't even try to hide it. Worse, they did it in the sort of rapid, secretive process that belongs in banana republics, not America. Just, fuck. Welcome to the revolution  Ah... I've been in the revolution, so to speak, since somewhere in the middle of Bush the second's term of office. Right now, I'm just despairing at how futile it seems. I've been frustrated by Democrats unwillingness to adopt the rules of engagement Republicans have been using for years - their attacks on a shared understanding of reality, the ceaseless villainizing of prominent figures, etc. - and that's finally come home to roost. States are gerrymandered to hell, McConnell is using Trump to pack the courts with lifetime appointments of barely qualified judges in their 30s. There's all the ways Republicans have conceived of to depress voter turnout amongst Democrats. We're barely a functional democracy at this point, and the partisan split is so wide and so vicious that I don't really see this ending without civil war. I am unconvinced that if Trump loses in 2020 he will actually give up rather than trying to void the election somehow with accusations of fraud or something. I don't see the current congress impeaching him even if we somehow got video evidence of him talking to Putin about repaying Putin's help in the election or something. I believe that Trump could indeed stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and unless it was someone the Republican base approves of, he wouldn't get impeached. The only way I see things not being terrible is if Democrats somehow end up turning out something like 10% more of the eligible voters than normal in 2018 and 2020, totally crushing Republicans in elections across the country, get control of the Senate and the House, and start totally rewriting the tax code, workers' rights, somehow overturn citizens united, completely reform campaign finance, and possibly criminalize a politician knowingly deceiving constituents. It's a pipe dream. The Revolution knows giving power to Democrats (as they currently exist) just prolongs the problems and decorates them in ways we prefer. It took everything the Democrats had not to start celebrating again like they did when Republicans tried to kill a bunch of people with their "healthcare" bill. They'd much rather a Republican boogieman than Republicans that wanted to pass everything they wanted to and then some, because then they wouldn't have a job. If you looked at what I wanted them to do, it's not something Democrats would actually do, probably? That's why I said it's a pipe dream. But practically speaking, the only alternative to Republicans is the Democrats, so the first step is to have the Democrats crush the Republicans in an election. Then, we can use the overwhelming victory as leverage to drag the party toward the left by threatening primaries against moderates who won by a landslide. Also, winning landslides in 2018 and 2020 gives Democrats control of redistricting. As much as I hate the Tea Party obstructionist shit, the general practice of gerrymandering and then running primary challenges from the outside of center was unquestionably effective in giving the active core of the base substantial control over the party without actually costing them national power. But the first step is working with the party to give them that overwhelming control at so many levels of government to skew things in their favor. Well, we'll be here when you're ready to realize that's not going to work. Who's this "we" and what's your great plan that is going to work?
The international proletariat revolution
|
On December 02 2017 20:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 20:06 Aquanim wrote:On December 02 2017 20:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 02 2017 19:40 Kyadytim wrote:On December 02 2017 19:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 02 2017 19:11 Kyadytim wrote:On December 02 2017 18:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 02 2017 18:34 Kyadytim wrote:On December 02 2017 18:06 Nebuchad wrote:
If you don't elect a progressive in 2020 I think the world should just give up on your country, to be honest I just spent about an hour talking about this with a few liberal friends. We were trying to work out ways in which the country doesn't collapse or become a hellhole until after we've died, and it wasn't really good. Reality doesn't seem to matter in elections anymore, reasonable economic ideas can all be slandered as communism, people are voting for Moore because they're convinced Democrats are pure evil, and it seems like Republicans can trump any economic platform with appeals to moral panic or racist attacks. One of the guys involved in the discussion has this theory that the rich are eventually going to exterminate most of the rest of us via enforcement of property rights and owning literally everything, which this tax bill just took a big step in helping to come true. I don't really feel like trying to explain the whole thing, but it was really hard to argue against the idea that in some fashion in the next 30 to 40 years the US is going to either fall apart or become a third world-ish hell where the only people with decent lives are the aristocrats and the people working for them while everyone else struggles to survive on the scraps. Electing a progressive to President isn't good enough. We need to elect a progressive Congress, too, and start making immediate and large movements towards less inequality, less money in politics, and a stronger safety net. Problem is, progressive economics has been slandered as communism for so long, and Democrats as a whole aren't a progressive party. Back in 2016, before the election, I thought things have been getting worse and Clinton would at least slow the bleeding, and so wasn't terrible. Now the bleeding is a hemorrhage, and the sort of policies Clinton espoused aren't going to cut it. Republicans have been using this "we need to stop liberalism here or we're lost" rhetoric, but I'm starting to become convinced that if liberals don't stop the Republican economic-political engine in it's tracks by the end of the 2020 elections, it's going to become an unstoppable force. At the very least, that sort of apocalyptic rhetoric has worked for Republicans, so it can't hurt for liberals to adopt it. One consensus issue between all of us is that we're probably looking at another great depression by around 2030 if this tax bill doesn't get more or less totally reversed in 2021. Well, there's the vague hope that the House and Senate can't manage to agree on anything and it never becomes law, but this isn't like healthcare where they knew that what they said they were doing was terrible but had promised to do it and were hoping to be able to offload the blame. This time, they wholeheartedly want this. They totally sold out America to the rich, and they didn't even try to hide it. Worse, they did it in the sort of rapid, secretive process that belongs in banana republics, not America. Just, fuck. Welcome to the revolution Ah... I've been in the revolution, so to speak, since somewhere in the middle of Bush the second's term of office. Right now, I'm just despairing at how futile it seems. I've been frustrated by Democrats unwillingness to adopt the rules of engagement Republicans have been using for years - their attacks on a shared understanding of reality, the ceaseless villainizing of prominent figures, etc. - and that's finally come home to roost. States are gerrymandered to hell, McConnell is using Trump to pack the courts with lifetime appointments of barely qualified judges in their 30s. There's all the ways Republicans have conceived of to depress voter turnout amongst Democrats. We're barely a functional democracy at this point, and the partisan split is so wide and so vicious that I don't really see this ending without civil war. I am unconvinced that if Trump loses in 2020 he will actually give up rather than trying to void the election somehow with accusations of fraud or something. I don't see the current congress impeaching him even if we somehow got video evidence of him talking to Putin about repaying Putin's help in the election or something. I believe that Trump could indeed stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and unless it was someone the Republican base approves of, he wouldn't get impeached. The only way I see things not being terrible is if Democrats somehow end up turning out something like 10% more of the eligible voters than normal in 2018 and 2020, totally crushing Republicans in elections across the country, get control of the Senate and the House, and start totally rewriting the tax code, workers' rights, somehow overturn citizens united, completely reform campaign finance, and possibly criminalize a politician knowingly deceiving constituents. It's a pipe dream. The Revolution knows giving power to Democrats (as they currently exist) just prolongs the problems and decorates them in ways we prefer. It took everything the Democrats had not to start celebrating again like they did when Republicans tried to kill a bunch of people with their "healthcare" bill. They'd much rather a Republican boogieman than Republicans that wanted to pass everything they wanted to and then some, because then they wouldn't have a job. If you looked at what I wanted them to do, it's not something Democrats would actually do, probably? That's why I said it's a pipe dream. But practically speaking, the only alternative to Republicans is the Democrats, so the first step is to have the Democrats crush the Republicans in an election. Then, we can use the overwhelming victory as leverage to drag the party toward the left by threatening primaries against moderates who won by a landslide. Also, winning landslides in 2018 and 2020 gives Democrats control of redistricting. As much as I hate the Tea Party obstructionist shit, the general practice of gerrymandering and then running primary challenges from the outside of center was unquestionably effective in giving the active core of the base substantial control over the party without actually costing them national power. But the first step is working with the party to give them that overwhelming control at so many levels of government to skew things in their favor. Well, we'll be here when you're ready to realize that's not going to work. Who's this "we" and what's your great plan that is going to work? The international proletariat revolution
That's not a plan its just a nice sentiment.
|
...
wow
it passed
So, let me get this right, aside from all the shit tax stuff, the ACA individual mandate is getting repealed?
Without removing the pre-existing conditions clause?
So Healthcare in the US is now dead?
fuck me America, I didn't think your Congressmen were actually this stupid.
Can't wait for all the Trumpers to see their new premiums skyrocket. Schadenfreude
My condolences to those not in perfect health.
|
Only in America are people so selfish, that they would gladly engage in collective self-destructive behavior to deny others a right in the name of liberty.
|
The fact that America is considered a 1st world country is laughable to me.
|
On December 02 2017 18:10 mozoku wrote:
So what is your guys' main opposition to the bill? I hear a lot of vague assertions about how it's the worst thing ever, but not very many specific complaints. I'm not a fan of it's handling of grad school tuition waivers, but that's only a small piece of the overall changes.
it increases the debt. and there's no clear benefit to counterweight that.
also all the usual stuff about its giveaways to the ultrarich; as well as the process with which it was handled.
|
taxes and gdp growth are loosely correlated so we will just have to see how this plays out. The more interesting thing to me is the repeal of mandate and keeping pre-existing coverage protection. Those go hand in hand so I think pre existing coverage protection will have to be slashed next since the former passed
|
yeah, it's basically a troll way of forcing through the dismantling. shameful. if they want a full repeal they should vote on that directly instead of trying to win by sabotage.
|
To me its a 'Repeal and no replace' bill disguised as a tax cut for the rich.
Which is why I didn't believe they would actually pass it.
|
|
|
I don't know if it's the contents and consequences of the bill, or the way they rammed it through with last-minute additions marked with pen just to give them a victory this year after the ACA disaster that annoys me more.
|
it's not a full victory yet; they still have to reconcile the house/senate versions; which usually happens, but if enough heat can be generated, you might be able to get enough folk to block the reconciled version from passing.
|
On December 02 2017 22:25 zlefin wrote:
it's not a full victory yet; they still have to reconcile the house/senate versions; which usually happens, but if enough heat can be generated, you might be able to get enough folk to block the reconciled version from passing.
There were several points of contention between them as well. It's unclear how well that was planned for in these Senate amendments.
|
On December 02 2017 21:46 biology]major wrote:
taxes and gdp growth are loosely correlated so we will just have to see how this plays out. The more interesting thing to me is the repeal of mandate and keeping pre-existing coverage protection. Those go hand in hand so I think pre existing coverage protection will have to be slashed next since the former passed
Gdp does not tell the whole story of a nations economy.
America could totally open it's borders and let 100 million + migrants in per year, unrestricted, and gdp would increase. The strength of the economy though would probably collapse.
In this situation, as automation continues to be adopted I see very little reason for increased employment, and a lot more reason for increased dividends and share buy backs.
We will see, I just think that in 15 years or so America will be in an awful lot of pain from this bill.
|
So, knowing that the next depression is starting in the US, how should i protect my living standard against the tanking of world wide economy?
|
On December 02 2017 23:13 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, knowing that the next depression is starting in the US, how should i protect my living standard against the tanking of world wide economy?
Slowly begin to roll back your lifestyle. Anything that was a frivolous buy in the past should be scrapped. Anything considered non-essential to surviving (because at this point, that's all we can do) should be scrapped. No more vacations. No more purchases that don't add to your long term survival. I'd say invest but who knows when the market will correct itself or collapse entirely. Basically, prepare as if tomorrow you could lose your job and plan towards that.
|
So does this mean housing will get more affordable? Lol, forgive me for trying to look on the bright side x_x
|
Seeing this level of panic reminds me of a few things. First of all, it has been years since people have seen the GOP get to make and pass their own even somewhat important legislation. That must be an odd feeling contributing to the doom and gloom.
Second, supposedly Collins (I think it was her) got a concession on doing Alexander-Murray before the year is done. This bill is meant to stabilize the exchanges (remember when it was being floated). Now on this topic I'd prefer the Ted Cruz idea that if gov is going to be taxing citizens to subsidize healthcare they be more honest about it and just use tax money directly. But there you have it.
Given the level of wailing you'd think they had just foisted a large, expensive, fundamentally new law on us like Obamacare. Indeed, I wish what they did was at least as important.
Third, I enjoy seeing Democrats now concerned about debt. The we-are-out-of-power-now-we-care never fails. And in case it isn't clear, I've said they should be cutting spending for a while. It's just an amusing phenomenon that always occus.
edit:also the grad school change and the endowment amendment (not just taken by Hillsdale) didn't make it into this version, so far as I know.
|
Uh, Americans have been universally obsessed with debt since I can remember. Democrats are not now concerned about debt, they've been concerned about debt from the time they adopted the third way. Shit, Clinton is probably best known and detested for gutting welfare and marginalizing the most vulnerable from those actually on the left instead of this so-called left that you call the Democratic Party.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
