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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
That Hobbsian style of 1900 government was already tested by the US and many others. It leads to mass inequality, which leads to instability and unrest. The system that is being promoted is only fair in the sense that the government doesn’t get involved beyond preserving the wealth of those who have it. The part that many conservatives over look is that era was amazingly violent due to the inequality. Social services make our nation safer, because desperate people do desperate things.
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Canada11586 Posts
I suspect it's not so much that society isn't responsible so much as, should it be the government that's doing it rather than charities, volunteerism, etc.
However, I generally think a certain level of social services is the best long term method of the wealthy keeping their wealth. They don't get quite as much, but you also prevent violent revolution, in which the wealthy would lose everything, including their lives. So I think a certain level of social services are to the benefit of the poor and the rich, though for different reasons.
I think wealth isn't simply measured in dollar$, but also in terms of safety: do you need to put up giant walls with spikes and broken glass and can your children venture out without the daily fear of kidnapping? Such is often the case where the disparity is to the extremes. A peaceful and orderly society has some costs attached.
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United States44203 Posts
On October 27 2017 03:37 Danglars wrote:
I think America has gone too far to your end of the spectrum (high rates of taxation, high and growing rates of government spending), which already has hurt economic growth and social mobility. I'll add that our education system is the real doom of the poor, with piss-poor results and entrenched interests not focused on educational achievement.
I see your system as creating more invisible victims than my preference.
I think the idea that social policies incentivise dysfunction is both absurd and counterfactual. Nobody is getting divorced or becoming a single mother for the benefits, that shit is hard, it's always been hard. The idea that there used to be a perfect past filled with nuclear families until feminism came along is simply false, families still broke up, it's just that nobody was counting the women and children who struggled in poverty. You cannot change human nature through economic policy, no more than the Soviets could when they tried to. Humans are not rational economic actors, the best we can do is build an economic policy to fit the shit that humans are going to do anyway.
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United States44203 Posts
On October 27 2017 03:55 Plansix wrote:
That Hobbsian style of 1900 government was already tested by the US and many others. It leads to mass inequality, which leads to instability and unrest. The system that is being promoted is only fair in the sense that the government doesn’t get involved beyond preserving the wealth of those who have it. The part that many conservatives over look is that era was amazingly violent due to the inequality. Social services make our nation safer, because desperate people do desperate things.
A time when the US army was actively involved in union busting as a lost age of government non intervention in wealth distribution and the free markets.
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On October 27 2017 04:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2017 03:55 Plansix wrote:
That Hobbsian style of 1900 government was already tested by the US and many others. It leads to mass inequality, which leads to instability and unrest. The system that is being promoted is only fair in the sense that the government doesn’t get involved beyond preserving the wealth of those who have it. The part that many conservatives over look is that era was amazingly violent due to the inequality. Social services make our nation safer, because desperate people do desperate things. A time when the US army was actively involved in union busting as a lost age of government non intervention in wealth distribution and the free markets.
An era that taught us the workers should be thankful to have jobs and hard work was the path of the God. Those who did not work hard feel from the path into vice and sin. And if those people happen to be a minority group, that fall from grace is a reflection on poor culture and family values. The perfect meritocracy as God intended.
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I can't explain a billionaire thinking they need a tax cut with veterans on the street and kids going hungry in the wealthiest country in the world other than addiction.
Addiction can generate some elaborate and superficially sensible rationalizations for one's actions, which I'm sure someone will offer, but they don't stand up to examination. If you look at wealthy people arguing they need more wealth as addicts, suddenly their actions make sense (if you've ever known addicts).
When the people shall have nothing more to eat, they will eat the rich.
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Louisiana will introduce new sentencing and parole reforms beginning November 1 of this year. But not everyone’s happy about that.
Caddo Parish Sheriff Steve Prator held a press conference earlier this month to noisily bemoan the new laws and guidelines.
His complaints were multiple and varied. That press conference ran for well over 20 minutes. Chief among Prator’s concerns was the loss of labor that the new release guidelines would potentially spell for the state’s prison system.
Slave labor, or prison labor, is expressly allowed by the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Prator was quite upfront about the loss of such labor: it stands to negatively impact his office’s bottom line. He noted that a great deal of the state’s 64 sheriffs fatten their office budgets by housing inmates from other parts of the state and putting them to work.
Prator drew a distinction between “good” and “bad” inmates. The former could be used in work-release programs beneficial to his office budget, while the latter could not. He said:
In addition to the bad ones — in addition to them — they are releasing some good ones that we use every day to wash cars, to change the oil in our cars, to cook in the kitchen — to do all that where we save money… [The good ones are] the ones you can work. That’s the one that you can have pick up trash or work the police programs. But guess what? Those are the ones that they are releasing.
Criminal justice advocates responded by being appalled. The ACLU of Louisiana’s Executive Director Marjorie Esman, said, “Jails are not supposed to incarcerate people just because they need work done – that is slavery. Sheriff Prator’s comments demonstrate a shocking disregard for the very principles on which our justice system is based and raise serious concerns about his department’s approach to public safety.”
In response to the outrage, Prator noted that prison labor–slavery–is actually a long-established practice in the United States. He issued a statement which read, “It is a fact that state inmates serving a hard-labor sentence can be required to work as part of their court-ordered sentence in Louisiana. The term ‘good’ inmates was in reference to state prisoners who are eligible to work but have lesser felony charges compared to others facing release who have criminal histories including murder, domestic violence, and battery.”
During his initial press conference, the Republican sheriff also claimed the reforms were a threat to public safety and ill-considered. While acknowledging the need for reform generally, he said:
It’s been long said that we were the number one leader in the United States for incarcerating criminals in our criminal justice system. Well, let’s face it, somebody’s got to be number one and we’ve got some bad dudes around here. We got some folks that need to be in jail
lawnewz.com
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stupid sheriffs. not suprising though; I wonder what you hear if you talk to the median sheriffs, rather than the ones speaking up.
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On October 27 2017 05:29 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +Louisiana will introduce new sentencing and parole reforms beginning November 1 of this year. But not everyone’s happy about that.
Caddo Parish Sheriff Steve Prator held a press conference earlier this month to noisily bemoan the new laws and guidelines.
His complaints were multiple and varied. That press conference ran for well over 20 minutes. Chief among Prator’s concerns was the loss of labor that the new release guidelines would potentially spell for the state’s prison system.
Slave labor, or prison labor, is expressly allowed by the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Prator was quite upfront about the loss of such labor: it stands to negatively impact his office’s bottom line. He noted that a great deal of the state’s 64 sheriffs fatten their office budgets by housing inmates from other parts of the state and putting them to work.
Prator drew a distinction between “good” and “bad” inmates. The former could be used in work-release programs beneficial to his office budget, while the latter could not. He said:
In addition to the bad ones — in addition to them — they are releasing some good ones that we use every day to wash cars, to change the oil in our cars, to cook in the kitchen — to do all that where we save money… [The good ones are] the ones you can work. That’s the one that you can have pick up trash or work the police programs. But guess what? Those are the ones that they are releasing.
Criminal justice advocates responded by being appalled. The ACLU of Louisiana’s Executive Director Marjorie Esman, said, “Jails are not supposed to incarcerate people just because they need work done – that is slavery. Sheriff Prator’s comments demonstrate a shocking disregard for the very principles on which our justice system is based and raise serious concerns about his department’s approach to public safety.”
In response to the outrage, Prator noted that prison labor–slavery–is actually a long-established practice in the United States. He issued a statement which read, “It is a fact that state inmates serving a hard-labor sentence can be required to work as part of their court-ordered sentence in Louisiana. The term ‘good’ inmates was in reference to state prisoners who are eligible to work but have lesser felony charges compared to others facing release who have criminal histories including murder, domestic violence, and battery.”
During his initial press conference, the Republican sheriff also claimed the reforms were a threat to public safety and ill-considered. While acknowledging the need for reform generally, he said:
It’s been long said that we were the number one leader in the United States for incarcerating criminals in our criminal justice system. Well, let’s face it, somebody’s got to be number one and we’ve got some bad dudes around here. We got some folks that need to be in jail lawnewz.com
Since even conservatives seem to agree that constitution never allowed slavery and the founders/government agencies acted in blatant disregard of the constitution by allowing slavery to persist, we should repeal the 13th Amendment since it's only real purpose is to make slavery constitutional (despite clearly conflicting with the rest of the document).
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Just think how these folks will respond to criminal justice reform and removing the three strikes rule. Addicted to using forced labor to balance their budgets, and by extension, benefit themselves.
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On October 27 2017 05:37 Plansix wrote:
Just think how these folks will respond to criminal justice reform and removing the three strikes rule. Addicted to using forced labor to balance their budgets, and by extension, benefit themselves.
It's a widespread bipartisan issue. Remember Bill's announcement at a prison, the massive money from the PIC and Hillary's own description of the slaves at the governors mansion with her.
Hell, one of the single worst prisons in the entire country is in true blue New York. Though their problems are more just inhumanity and indefinitely holding people without trial. Though it does have a history (and namesake) that many would probably be surprised to learn.
EDIT: Almost forgot the "progressive" front runner from the Democratic party (Kamala Harris) is a champion of three strikes laws.
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The problem with prisons stems from the problem with over sentencing. Having the highest prison population in the world and state governments that have no interest assuring prisons are function is a disaster. On top of that, we have media that literally cannot focus long enough to dig into the issue or bring attention to it. I don’t believe there is a way to handle this on the federal level any more. It will have to be a state by state effort to correct the problem. We are trying to do it in MA and we are already getting push back from law enforcement.
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On October 27 2017 05:29 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +Louisiana will introduce new sentencing and parole reforms beginning November 1 of this year. But not everyone’s happy about that.
Caddo Parish Sheriff Steve Prator held a press conference earlier this month to noisily bemoan the new laws and guidelines.
His complaints were multiple and varied. That press conference ran for well over 20 minutes. Chief among Prator’s concerns was the loss of labor that the new release guidelines would potentially spell for the state’s prison system.
Slave labor, or prison labor, is expressly allowed by the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Prator was quite upfront about the loss of such labor: it stands to negatively impact his office’s bottom line. He noted that a great deal of the state’s 64 sheriffs fatten their office budgets by housing inmates from other parts of the state and putting them to work.
Prator drew a distinction between “good” and “bad” inmates. The former could be used in work-release programs beneficial to his office budget, while the latter could not. He said:
In addition to the bad ones — in addition to them — they are releasing some good ones that we use every day to wash cars, to change the oil in our cars, to cook in the kitchen — to do all that where we save money… [The good ones are] the ones you can work. That’s the one that you can have pick up trash or work the police programs. But guess what? Those are the ones that they are releasing.
Criminal justice advocates responded by being appalled. The ACLU of Louisiana’s Executive Director Marjorie Esman, said, “Jails are not supposed to incarcerate people just because they need work done – that is slavery. Sheriff Prator’s comments demonstrate a shocking disregard for the very principles on which our justice system is based and raise serious concerns about his department’s approach to public safety.”
In response to the outrage, Prator noted that prison labor–slavery–is actually a long-established practice in the United States. He issued a statement which read, “It is a fact that state inmates serving a hard-labor sentence can be required to work as part of their court-ordered sentence in Louisiana. The term ‘good’ inmates was in reference to state prisoners who are eligible to work but have lesser felony charges compared to others facing release who have criminal histories including murder, domestic violence, and battery.”
During his initial press conference, the Republican sheriff also claimed the reforms were a threat to public safety and ill-considered. While acknowledging the need for reform generally, he said:
It’s been long said that we were the number one leader in the United States for incarcerating criminals in our criminal justice system. Well, let’s face it, somebody’s got to be number one and we’ve got some bad dudes around here. We got some folks that need to be in jail lawnewz.com
It really took me like... reading through 3/4 of this to realize that this isn't pardoy or a joke article made up completly but actually someone who said this. A Sheriff no less...
It isn't parody à la The Onion, right?
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Yeah, Kamala Harris was a prosecutor, so of course she liked three strikes laws. And she likely didn’t abuse them too. But the three strikes rules are so easily abused by DAs that just want to throw black men in jail for minor drug charges.
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On October 27 2017 05:51 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2017 05:29 Nevuk wrote:Louisiana will introduce new sentencing and parole reforms beginning November 1 of this year. But not everyone’s happy about that.
Caddo Parish Sheriff Steve Prator held a press conference earlier this month to noisily bemoan the new laws and guidelines.
His complaints were multiple and varied. That press conference ran for well over 20 minutes. Chief among Prator’s concerns was the loss of labor that the new release guidelines would potentially spell for the state’s prison system.
Slave labor, or prison labor, is expressly allowed by the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Prator was quite upfront about the loss of such labor: it stands to negatively impact his office’s bottom line. He noted that a great deal of the state’s 64 sheriffs fatten their office budgets by housing inmates from other parts of the state and putting them to work.
Prator drew a distinction between “good” and “bad” inmates. The former could be used in work-release programs beneficial to his office budget, while the latter could not. He said:
In addition to the bad ones — in addition to them — they are releasing some good ones that we use every day to wash cars, to change the oil in our cars, to cook in the kitchen — to do all that where we save money… [The good ones are] the ones you can work. That’s the one that you can have pick up trash or work the police programs. But guess what? Those are the ones that they are releasing.
Criminal justice advocates responded by being appalled. The ACLU of Louisiana’s Executive Director Marjorie Esman, said, “Jails are not supposed to incarcerate people just because they need work done – that is slavery. Sheriff Prator’s comments demonstrate a shocking disregard for the very principles on which our justice system is based and raise serious concerns about his department’s approach to public safety.”
In response to the outrage, Prator noted that prison labor–slavery–is actually a long-established practice in the United States. He issued a statement which read, “It is a fact that state inmates serving a hard-labor sentence can be required to work as part of their court-ordered sentence in Louisiana. The term ‘good’ inmates was in reference to state prisoners who are eligible to work but have lesser felony charges compared to others facing release who have criminal histories including murder, domestic violence, and battery.”
During his initial press conference, the Republican sheriff also claimed the reforms were a threat to public safety and ill-considered. While acknowledging the need for reform generally, he said:
It’s been long said that we were the number one leader in the United States for incarcerating criminals in our criminal justice system. Well, let’s face it, somebody’s got to be number one and we’ve got some bad dudes around here. We got some folks that need to be in jail lawnewz.com It really took me like... reading through 3/4 of this to realize that this isn't pardoy or a joke article made up completly but actually someone who said this. A Sheriff no less... It isn't parody à la The Onion, right?
Welcome to America.
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On October 27 2017 01:49 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2017 01:37 IgnE wrote:On October 27 2017 00:46 farvacola wrote:On October 27 2017 00:39 kollin wrote:On October 25 2017 12:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 25 2017 10:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 25 2017 10:57 xDaunt wrote:On October 25 2017 10:52 Plansix wrote:
Again, the opposition. Red team vs blue team. There is no goal of homogeneity, only division and opposition. Co-existence with the left is impossible for the modern conservative. Dominance is the only end game they accept. It's not about us vs them. It's about policy and principle. My relentless criticism of the GOP should make that obvious. You need to ditch this stupid theory of yours. Genuinely curious what principles you're talking about? The central tenets of conservativism can be broadly distilled down to 1) individual liberty, 2) importance of family, 3) national strength, 4) capitalism, and 5) civic virtue and morality. The GOP has talked a very big game on Nos 1 and 4, but have badly failed to deliver. I don't see how this distinctly differs from leftism (Clinton is not a leftist). One way in which it differs from leftism deals in number 3, the likes of which is utterly incoherent for anyone who supports anything conservative here in the States. "National strength" is a laughably hollow proxy for overfunded, contract employee ridden military with enough social services to keep old people happy and voting; the rest of pretty much everything conservative, no matter where on the spectrum, prioritizes enhancing the rights of states at the expense of an effectively strong federal government. uh what about 4 in any case citing 1, 2, and 5 without irony or qualification deserves a pause What qualifications would you think are necessary to 1, 2, and 5?
Well I'm more for freedom FROM family for individuals than I am for freedom FROM government for families. The patriarcho-feudal arrangements of conservative mythic families don't seem to offer a whole lot of "individual liberty," and which is further dampened by conservative notions of familial obligations, at least as distinct from "society." There is a peculiar and somewhat arbitrary break in obligations between what is owed towards the family and what is owed towards the neighbor.
Likewise it's a bit peculiar to talk about "individual liberty" at the same time as you argue for the importance of "civic virtue and morality," or what is necessarily the imposition of social norms as a pure restraint on individual liberty. Those norms necessarily restrict the possibilities of an individual's becoming, as such, but have also historically been rooted in religious and cultural norms that I find particularly objectionable.
I would rather rephrase this chimeric amalgamation of 1, 2, and 5 as principles concerned with 1) the maximization of despotic property rights for the individual and 2) the atomization of society into nuclear families (wherein the principal property owner, or head of household, exerts great power over the dependents).
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On October 27 2017 05:55 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, Kamala Harris was a prosecutor, so of course she liked three strikes laws. And she likely didn’t abuse them too. But the three strikes rules are so easily abused by DAs that just want to throw black men in jail for minor drug charges.
Arguing they should continue to exist is abusing them and more importantly your citizens. I'm sure others did worse, but don't just give her and Democrats a pass on this. They are an integral part of the problem.
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On October 27 2017 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2017 05:55 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, Kamala Harris was a prosecutor, so of course she liked three strikes laws. And she likely didn’t abuse them too. But the three strikes rules are so easily abused by DAs that just want to throw black men in jail for minor drug charges. Arguing they should continue to exist is abusing them and more importantly your citizens. I'm sure others did worse, but don't just give her and Democrats a pass on this. They are an integral part of the problem.
She isn’t a stupid woman, someone should convince her otherwise. We have a bunch of DAs saying that three strike laws are great in my stated. And a group of friends and I are working local justice reform groups to make calls and convince them that three strikes laws to easy to abuse. Or convince their bosses if that doesn’t work. No one said it was going to be easy.
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On October 27 2017 06:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2017 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 27 2017 05:55 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, Kamala Harris was a prosecutor, so of course she liked three strikes laws. And she likely didn’t abuse them too. But the three strikes rules are so easily abused by DAs that just want to throw black men in jail for minor drug charges. Arguing they should continue to exist is abusing them and more importantly your citizens. I'm sure others did worse, but don't just give her and Democrats a pass on this. They are an integral part of the problem. She isn’t a stupid woman, someone should convince her otherwise. We have a bunch of DAs saying that three strike laws are great in my stated. And a group of friends and I are working local justice reform groups to make calls and convince them that three strikes laws to easy to abuse. Or convince their bosses if that doesn’t work. No one said it was going to be easy.
I'm just saying your first statement made it sound like you didn't/wouldn't vote for someone who helped perpetuate, suffered from, (and magnified) the problem you were identifying.
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On October 27 2017 05:51 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2017 05:29 Nevuk wrote:Louisiana will introduce new sentencing and parole reforms beginning November 1 of this year. But not everyone’s happy about that.
Caddo Parish Sheriff Steve Prator held a press conference earlier this month to noisily bemoan the new laws and guidelines.
His complaints were multiple and varied. That press conference ran for well over 20 minutes. Chief among Prator’s concerns was the loss of labor that the new release guidelines would potentially spell for the state’s prison system.
Slave labor, or prison labor, is expressly allowed by the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Prator was quite upfront about the loss of such labor: it stands to negatively impact his office’s bottom line. He noted that a great deal of the state’s 64 sheriffs fatten their office budgets by housing inmates from other parts of the state and putting them to work.
Prator drew a distinction between “good” and “bad” inmates. The former could be used in work-release programs beneficial to his office budget, while the latter could not. He said:
In addition to the bad ones — in addition to them — they are releasing some good ones that we use every day to wash cars, to change the oil in our cars, to cook in the kitchen — to do all that where we save money… [The good ones are] the ones you can work. That’s the one that you can have pick up trash or work the police programs. But guess what? Those are the ones that they are releasing.
Criminal justice advocates responded by being appalled. The ACLU of Louisiana’s Executive Director Marjorie Esman, said, “Jails are not supposed to incarcerate people just because they need work done – that is slavery. Sheriff Prator’s comments demonstrate a shocking disregard for the very principles on which our justice system is based and raise serious concerns about his department’s approach to public safety.”
In response to the outrage, Prator noted that prison labor–slavery–is actually a long-established practice in the United States. He issued a statement which read, “It is a fact that state inmates serving a hard-labor sentence can be required to work as part of their court-ordered sentence in Louisiana. The term ‘good’ inmates was in reference to state prisoners who are eligible to work but have lesser felony charges compared to others facing release who have criminal histories including murder, domestic violence, and battery.”
During his initial press conference, the Republican sheriff also claimed the reforms were a threat to public safety and ill-considered. While acknowledging the need for reform generally, he said:
It’s been long said that we were the number one leader in the United States for incarcerating criminals in our criminal justice system. Well, let’s face it, somebody’s got to be number one and we’ve got some bad dudes around here. We got some folks that need to be in jail lawnewz.com It really took me like... reading through 3/4 of this to realize that this isn't pardoy or a joke article made up completly but actually someone who said this. A Sheriff no less... It isn't parody à la The Onion, right?
iirc that site isn't parody. in fairness of course there's a lot of different sheriffs in a state, some are gonna make more outrageous statements than others, and the boring ones won't get reprinted, only the screwups will be.
america does have some rather crazy people in it; I mean, someone as extreme as Arpaio can get reelected (and sheriff is an elected position), so this kind of stuff sounds like normal rhetoric.
in further fairness (regardless of if its warranted); america often doesn't give adequate funding to its prisons, so with a lower % of prisoners eligible to do the prison labor, their costs will go up, and they will probably not be giving funding to make up the difference.
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EPT
