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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
October 24 2017 01:49 GMT
#180941
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.


Obama did neither of those things.
Never Knows Best.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 24 2017 01:54 GMT
#180942
On October 24 2017 10:46 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 10:40 KwarK wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.


Did you mean bush? Because I can agree that Bush had a worse impact on the world than what Trump has had so far. However I can't even begin to imagine what Trump's response to 9/11 would have been.

Bragging about the tallest building in Manhattan and making up cheering crowds. Basically a normal day.

Tsk tsk, he's only among the top 5 most morally repugnant Presidents in the last 150 years and is not a literal mass murdering head of a dictatorial fascist state. We're clearly being too hard on him.

And we are at 9 months. It took other presidents like 2 full terms to get to this point.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 24 2017 02:07 GMT
#180943
Trump's stupidities are mostly self-caused, rather than a result of a poor response to external events. The world has been remarkably tranquil over the past few months, so he's mostly not had to deal with those yet. Though he didn't do great the few times he did.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 24 2017 02:14 GMT
#180944
Puerto Rico might disagree with that assessment.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32761 Posts
October 24 2017 02:23 GMT
#180945
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-24 02:45:56
October 24 2017 02:38 GMT
#180946
On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.

Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 24 2017 03:13 GMT
#180947
Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-Ariz.) on Monday seized on the deadly ambush in Niger to call for a new congressional authorization for U.S. military operations overseas.

McCain told reporters Monday that he and the Armed Services panel’s top Democrat, Rhode Island Sen. Jack Reed, are working on a proposal to update the broad war powers Congress gave the commander in chief after the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

The deaths of four U.S. soldiers in Niger earlier this month have stoked fresh interest in a new war powers vote, which the Trump administration has indicated it would not oppose — although it says it has all the legal authority it needs to conduct anti-terrorism operations under the existing 2001 authorization.

“We’re going to have to have” an updated authorization for the use of military force, said McCain, who has previously called for a new war powers resolution.

Still, the new momentum may not translate into floor time for a debate any time soon. Previous attempts this year to repeal or rewrite the law have fallen flat among congressional GOP leaders.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee had already been scheduled to hold an Oct. 30 hearing on the president’s war powers, spurred on by Sens. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) and Tim Kaine (D-Va.), sponsors of a new war authorization proposal. Chairman Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) described the hearing as “excellent” timing Thursday, but he remains unsure about any practical movement on an updated war powers measure.

“I don’t know,” Corker told reporters. “I mean, there are so many bigger issues. I mean, it’s the beginning of a much larger conversation.”

Indeed, lawmakers as well as senior Pentagon officials are still getting up to speed on critical facts regarding the Oct. 4 attack that killed four members of the U.S. Army Special Forces. Armed Services panel members are set for a Thursday briefing on the ambush in Niger, where the Pentagon’s Africa Command has stepped up its efforts against militants affiliated with the Islamic State terrorist group.

McCain told reporters Monday that “we expect more information” about the deadly battle. “We are getting some cooperation and information — which we were not getting before.”

Senior senators in both parties, including Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), said on Sunday that they were unaware of the size of the U.S. military presence in Niger, though the White House formally notified the Hill about troops in Niger in June.

Lawmakers are now pressing to know more about the events of Oct. 4, and Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Joe Dunford pledged on Monday to provide those details.

“We owe the families as much information as we can find out about what happened,” the four-star Marine general said.

“With regard to Congress and the criticism we’re not providing enough information, … if the Congress doesn’t believe that they’re not getting sufficient information, then I need to double my efforts to provide them with information,” Dunford added.

Defense Secretary James Mattis last week said the type of attack that occurred in Niger was “considered unlikely,” but he nonetheless promised to “rapidly” release the findings of an investigation into the incident.

The United States, Dunford said, has 800 troops in Niger, with most assisting local forces against the threat of ISIS. In all, he said, more than 6,000 U.S troops are in 53 nations in Africa.

Kaine acknowledged in a Monday interview that securing floor time for a war powers debate from Republican leaders will be difficult, noting that a military authorization “really needs some space on its own” rather than getting debated as part of Congress’ crowded year-end schedule.

“Time on the floor is tough — this isn’t something that has a year-end” deadline, said Kaine, a longtime advocate for a new war powers debate. Nevertheless, he added, the Niger ambush “ups the stakes for finally trying to get this right," and added in a statement that he and Flake "have seen an increase in interest among our colleagues" in having a new war powers debate after the Niger attack.

This year’s previous pitches to update the 2001 war authorization have been attached to other legislation, and have failed to come to fruition. A proposal to repeal the authorization by Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) was added to annual House defense spending legislation in June, but removed from the bill by House GOP leadership before it went to the floor.

And an attempt in September by Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) to add a repeal of the 2001 and 2002 war authorizations to the must-pass National Defense Authorization Act was rebuffed by the Senate.

Lee, the only lawmaker to vote against the 2001 war authorization, called moves by Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) to derail her proposal “undemocratic.”

“People are asking, ‘Why are we in Niger?’ Rightfully so,” Lee said in an interview with Politico. “Well, a debate would provide information and answer a lot of questions and put Congress back in the mix in terms of us doing our job, because certainly we’re not.”

One of the Democratic senators who voted to table Paul’s repeal proposal, however, suggested on Monday that he is now open to a new war powers vote.

“This should be a debate on the Senate floor,” Sen. Bob Casey (D-Pa.) told CNN. “At least for a couple of weeks or a number of days. And then have a vote at the end of it.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 24 2017 03:49 GMT
#180948
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 24 2017 04:41 GMT
#180949
On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.

Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do.

You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
October 24 2017 05:46 GMT
#180950
On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.

Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do.

You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why.


When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 24 2017 06:34 GMT
#180951
On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.

Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do.

You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why.


When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly.

Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare!

I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Furikawari
Profile Joined February 2014
France2522 Posts
October 24 2017 06:37 GMT
#180952
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round...
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8222 Posts
October 24 2017 06:57 GMT
#180953
On October 24 2017 10:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 09:56 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:32 ticklishmusic wrote:
On October 24 2017 05:19 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 05:02 ticklishmusic wrote:
eh. i think kim is probably a more 'rational' actor, but the difference b/w him and trump comes down to norms. we expect kim to do and say all sorts of crazy things because he's a north korean dictator. otoh, there is a different sort of standard set by previous presidents of the united states.

What about a narcissist with braggadocio that habitually lies? He has a rational interest in using low media credibility to defend his ego. He was elected to cause chaos within his own party, for it's wrongs, so he rationally takes them apart. He's known for his reality tv and NY playboy persona, so he argues with his own staff (homage to You're Fired) and lunges from one corner of the political battlefield to the other ruffling feathers. You give Kim too much credit.


you're arguing that trump can/ should/ does act like a realty tv show guy. i'm arguing he's supposed to act like a president in the mold of the ones who came before him.

So the office makes the man? Kim gets a nice elevation because giant work camps and killings are rational acts for him, but Trump gets none of that because that's how comparisons work in 2017? Let's say Trump is a necessary evil for his time and he was elected to not behave like his immediate predecessors. He might not even be the most personally morally repugnant in the last 150 years ... though maybe I could give you top five.


i haven't made any moral equivalence between trump and kim. since it seems necessary to state it for you, i obviously think work camps and executing people with anti aircraft guns are completely awful. nothing trump has done compares to that.

however, kim is acting in the long tradition of dictators. for a dictator, he is more or less normal, awful as that normal is. trump is not acting like a president.

this is not a complicated thing dude. i worry for you.

Danglar apparently glitched and got stuck in a strawman loop where everyone says that Trump is worse than Kim even though everyone repeats him it makes no sense to compare the two because it's comparing apple and oranges.

Too complicated or something.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8222 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-24 07:13:05
October 24 2017 07:12 GMT
#180954
On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round...

I also struggle to understand why a party that is all about how white men are obviously victims, have their fringe march with swastikas and confederate flags to defend white supremacy and is traumatised by minorities and those horrible, horrible sjw and other feminists asking for equal right complains all day long about the left's "identity politics".
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
October 24 2017 07:31 GMT
#180955
On October 24 2017 16:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round...

I also struggle to understand why a party that is all about how white men are obviously victims, have their fringe march with swastikas and confederate flags to defend white supremacy and is traumatised by minorities and those horrible, horrible sjw and other feminists asking for equal right complains all day long about the left's "identity politics".


Because most peoole don't pay attention or straight up don't care about politics so they scream these things to motivate these low information voters into their corner.
Never Knows Best.
Furikawari
Profile Joined February 2014
France2522 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-24 07:51:31
October 24 2017 07:51 GMT
#180956
On October 24 2017 15:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 10:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
On October 24 2017 09:56 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:32 ticklishmusic wrote:
On October 24 2017 05:19 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 05:02 ticklishmusic wrote:
eh. i think kim is probably a more 'rational' actor, but the difference b/w him and trump comes down to norms. we expect kim to do and say all sorts of crazy things because he's a north korean dictator. otoh, there is a different sort of standard set by previous presidents of the united states.

What about a narcissist with braggadocio that habitually lies? He has a rational interest in using low media credibility to defend his ego. He was elected to cause chaos within his own party, for it's wrongs, so he rationally takes them apart. He's known for his reality tv and NY playboy persona, so he argues with his own staff (homage to You're Fired) and lunges from one corner of the political battlefield to the other ruffling feathers. You give Kim too much credit.


you're arguing that trump can/ should/ does act like a realty tv show guy. i'm arguing he's supposed to act like a president in the mold of the ones who came before him.

So the office makes the man? Kim gets a nice elevation because giant work camps and killings are rational acts for him, but Trump gets none of that because that's how comparisons work in 2017? Let's say Trump is a necessary evil for his time and he was elected to not behave like his immediate predecessors. He might not even be the most personally morally repugnant in the last 150 years ... though maybe I could give you top five.


i haven't made any moral equivalence between trump and kim. since it seems necessary to state it for you, i obviously think work camps and executing people with anti aircraft guns are completely awful. nothing trump has done compares to that.

however, kim is acting in the long tradition of dictators. for a dictator, he is more or less normal, awful as that normal is. trump is not acting like a president.

this is not a complicated thing dude. i worry for you.

Danglar apparently glitched and got stuck in a strawman loop where everyone says that Trump is worse than Kim even though everyone repeats him it makes no sense to compare the two because it's comparing apple and oranges.

Too complicated or something.


At least it's easy to know who is the orange one
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
October 24 2017 08:50 GMT
#180957
On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.

Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do.

You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why.


When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly.

Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare!

I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views.


The irony is you should feel guilty, but not for the past, for the disgusting way which you behave today.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8222 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-24 10:10:25
October 24 2017 10:10 GMT
#180958
On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:
On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.

You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea.


Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years.

Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison.

Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do.

You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why.


When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly.

Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare!

I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views.

I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here.

Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
October 24 2017 10:38 GMT
#180959
Are there any Trump supporters in this thread?
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 24 2017 11:01 GMT
#180960
WASHINGTON — Fires, floods and hurricanes are already costing the federal government tens of billions of dollars a year and climate change will drive those costs ever higher in coming years, a new federal study warns.

The report by the Government Accountability Office, Congress’s auditing arm, urges the Trump administration to take climate change risks seriously and begin formulating a response.

The study, scheduled to be released Tuesday, says that different sectors of the economy and different parts of the country will be harmed in ways that are difficult to predict. But one estimate projects that rising temperatures could cause losses in labor productivity of as much as $150 billion by 2099, while changes in some crop yields could cost as much as $53 billion. The Southwest will suffer more costly wildfires, the Southeast will see more heat-related deaths and the Northwest must prepare for diminished shellfish harvests.

The report acknowledges that it is difficult to pinpoint the costs of disasters that can be directly attributed to climate change. And the projected fiscal burden remains less than 1 percent of the current $3.8 trillion federal budget.

But Senators Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington, and Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, who jointly requested the report, said between the lines of a conservative government audit was an urgent economic message that Washington should heed.

“The Government Accountability Office — if you will, the chief bean counter — is basically telling us that this is costing us a lot of money,” Ms. Cantwell said. “We need to understand that as stewards of the taxpayer that climate is a fiscal issue, and the fact that it’s having this big a fiscal impact on our federal budget needs to be dealt with.”

The report, two years in the making, comes as the Senate prepares to vote this week on a $36.5 billion disaster-relief package to fund hurricane relief, a flood insurance program and wildfire recovery efforts in the West.

Ms. Cantwell and Ms. Collins noted that the White House Office of Management and Budget had calculated that extreme weather events over the past decade cost the federal government $350 billion.

Both asserted that the study should help move Congress and the administration past partisan fights over the science of global warming and toward a search for solutions — something they said could be problematic given that the Trump administration is rolling back many of former President Barack Obama’s climate change initiatives.

“My hope is the administration will take a look at this report and realize there is an economic impact here that is significant,” Ms. Collins said. “We simply cannot afford the billions of dollars in additional funding that’s going to be needed if we do not take into account the consequences of climate change.”

The G.A.O. study draws on interviews with 26 scientific and economic experts and 30 studies, though it focuses most heavily on the only two national-scale studies analyzing the economic effects of climate change. One of them is an ongoing research project being produced by the Environmental Protection Agency, and the other is a study by several organizations led by the Rhodium Group that analyzed the potential costs associated with climate change in coastal property, health, agriculture, energy, labor productivity and crime.

Trevor Houser, a partner at the Rhodium Group, which led the American Climate Prospectus study, said the accounting was on the conservative side. The agriculture analysis, for example, looked only at how changes in temperature and precipitation would affect four commodity crops. It did not study the fiscal fallout of events like wildfires and did not take into account the costs of infectious diseases linked to climate change.

“Climate change is clear and present danger to the U.S. economy and the fiscal health of the U.S. government, and that risk is really unevenly spread,” Mr. Houser said. “It needs to be actively managed by the federal government.”

J. Alfredo Gomez, one of the lead authors of the G.A.O. study, said the federal government had identified climate change as a significant economic risk since 2013. This study, he said, asks the administration to use the detailed data to prepare for the inevitable.

Robert N. Stavins, an economist at Harvard University, said he doubted the study would convince either Republicans in Congress or the White House to act.

“The G.A.O. study is conservative, it’s not alarmist, it’s realistic and balanced and they go out of their way to point out all of the uncertainties involved,” Mr. Stavins said. “I don’t see any likelihood it’s going to be taken seriously.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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