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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 24 2017 19:38 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Are there any Trump supporters in this thread?
Are there any outside of r/the_donald anywhere?
The best you get is people hating on everything they see as "liberal" for "reasons", being an actual trump supporter at this point just meanst that you are an absolute asshole yourself.
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Norway28923 Posts
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both.
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On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both.
A good way to stop people from considering you to be an idiot or an asshole is to stop being an idiot or an asshole.
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William M. Tweed would be proud.
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On October 24 2017 22:22 Plansix wrote:
William M. Tweed would be proud.
Folks would do well to remember that it wasn't his corruption (oft as bold as could be) that did him in, but his inability to control the people he was paid to control.
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well, the good news is that they do seem to be getting the job done, albeit at a fairly exorbitant rate. they're pretty much subcontracting out all the work through IBEW (the electrician's union) so obviously the people on the ground mostly know their shit. the bad news is kinda everything else.
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The government could have gone right tot the union and cut out the middle man. But I guess someone has to make some windfall profits, so why not just two people?
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On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round...
That would be the competing narrative ...
On October 24 2017 19:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.
You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea. Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years. Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison. Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do. You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why. When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly. Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare! I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views. I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here. Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time.
Yeah, it's the "trollish bullshit" of the salon, slate, motherjones, thinkprogress style. Those thoughts obviously resonate a lot more with the leftists in this thread.
I've yet to see interesting discussions arising from the proposition that this country was built on the backs of exploited people and a pressing social need is to acknowledge your own white privilege and stop exploitation. It's built on so many fallacies and reductionism that you have to unpack every three words. Even then, it's likely the opposite side isn't open to accepting the country is so much more because there's been too many years of indoctrination that the country (and sometimes all western civ) is largely exploitative.
On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both.
Probably for the same reason I presume people here don't post a lot on conservative internet outlets and The_Donald. You get called racists and white supremacists in this forum (or at least advocating those ideologies), and you'd get called cucks and globalists in places like the_Donald. It's whether you want to stand the abuse and either practice or observe.
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This is another reason I doubt small tax cuts will get passed. Corker is already disgraced and retired instead of losing his primary. He's going in it with nothing to lose and only accolades from RINOs/leftists to gain. Trump doesn't need to waste his breath until the failed vote, and even then most elected Republicans will be more worried with their own re-election campaigns having failed ACA repeal, tax cuts, and immigration. Trump's criticism has got to be lowest on the line of priorities.
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On October 24 2017 23:18 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round... That would be the competing narrative ... Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 19:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.
You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea. Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years. Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison. Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do. You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why. When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly. Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare! I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views. I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here. Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time. Yeah, it's the "trollish bullshit" of the salon, slate, motherjones, thinkprogress style. Those thoughts obviously resonate a lot more with the leftists in this thread. I've yet to see interesting discussions arising from the proposition that this country was built on the backs of exploited people and a pressing social need is to acknowledge your own white privilege and stop exploitation. It's built on so many fallacies and reductionism that you have to unpack every three words. Even then, it's likely the opposite side isn't open to accepting the country is so much more because there's been too many years of indoctrination that the country (and sometimes all western civ) is largely exploitative. Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both. Probably for the same reason I presume people here don't post a lot on conservative internet outlets and The_Donald. You get called racists and white supremacists in this forum (or at least advocating those ideologies), and you'd get called cucks and globalists in places like the_Donald. It's whether you want to stand the abuse and either practice or observe.
Pointing out when people make racist posts or advocate white supremacy isn't abuse.
I find it amusing you talk of indoctrination like all of US history wasn't indoctrinating people to think like you do despite reality.
You probably really believe TJ would have written the declaration/constitution if he wasn't born rich and stayed rich because he and his family exploited people in the worst ways imaginable. That's a categorically stupid (but popular in your circles I imagine) notion.
It's your (and others who say this trash) refusal to come to grips with the reality of how America got where it is and only wanting to remember the parts that make you feel righteous in your ignorance that are at the core of this terribly misguided victim complex.
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I love the attacks against Corker, who did the thing most Americans want: Not worry about re-election and stand by his principles and what he thinks is best for the county. Of course, this type of conviction goes against the power of populism, which seizes on the fears of losing a primary to push its agenda.
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On October 24 2017 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 23:18 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round... That would be the competing narrative ... On October 24 2017 19:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2017 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:
To me it really is about expectations. As horrible as Trump is, no policy he has advocated is even remotely close to as bad as the policy Kim continuously executes. To claim otherwise you really have to be completely blind to just how terrible North Korea is. But whereas Kim III is basically the same as Kim I and II, Trump is by a tremendously huge margin the worst American president of my lifetime. I think they're both fairly rational from their own pov, but Trump is less competent with regard to fulfilling his agenda than Kim is with regard to fulfilling his. And then, even with rapid decline of American influence and the rapid increase of North Korean nuclear capabilities, the US still continues to be a much more significant global actor. North Korea's terribleness saddens me on behalf of all North Koreans, but not beyond that. Trump's America makes the entire world a less safe and worse place to be.
You could probably argue that if you had someone with Trump's personality installed as a North Korean dictator, he'd rival the Kims. But there's still a world of difference between what flies in the US and what flies in North Korea. Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years. Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison. Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do. You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why. When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly. Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare! I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views. I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here. Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time. Yeah, it's the "trollish bullshit" of the salon, slate, motherjones, thinkprogress style. Those thoughts obviously resonate a lot more with the leftists in this thread. I've yet to see interesting discussions arising from the proposition that this country was built on the backs of exploited people and a pressing social need is to acknowledge your own white privilege and stop exploitation. It's built on so many fallacies and reductionism that you have to unpack every three words. Even then, it's likely the opposite side isn't open to accepting the country is so much more because there's been too many years of indoctrination that the country (and sometimes all western civ) is largely exploitative. On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both. Probably for the same reason I presume people here don't post a lot on conservative internet outlets and The_Donald. You get called racists and white supremacists in this forum (or at least advocating those ideologies), and you'd get called cucks and globalists in places like the_Donald. It's whether you want to stand the abuse and either practice or observe. Pointing out when people make racist posts or advocate white supremacy isn't abuse. I find it amusing you talk of indoctrination like all of US history wasn't indoctrinating people to think like you do despite reality. You probably really believe TJ would have written the declaration/constitution if he wasn't born rich and stayed rich because he and his family exploited people in the worst ways imaginable. That's a categorically stupid (but popular in your circles I imagine) notion. It's your (and others who say this trash) refusal to come to grips with the reality of how America got where it is and only wanting to remember the parts that make you feel righteous in your ignorance that are at the core of this terribly misguided victim complex.
You embody this very elite opinion that only what you say counts as stigmatic and abusive should count as samesuch. Similarly, that your conception and conclusion about the history of the US since it's founding, that it's accurately summed up as built on oppression, is the only conception and conclusion possible. Same on class warfare, which I'd call "categorically stupid." I instead thing you're dead wrong on all these fronts. Slavery was a bad chapter and we fought a very bloody war over it, and like Frederick Douglass came to believe, the constitution was always intolerant of slavery. We can stay here all day and tell the other, essentially, you're living in a different reality and mine is the truer telling of the story.
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Except then after the civil war, we have the Reconstruction Era, where the North tried to rebuild the south and deal with the aftermath of slavery. And the instant that era ended, the Jim Crow and KKK era of US history began in the south. The cycle of progress away from racism is always followed by a snap back to horrible racist policies. Civil rights is followed by Nixon and the war on drugs(blacks). Obama is followed by the rise of white nationalism back into US politics. GH is right that the US can’t get over its history of racism, because it is baked into our culture. And its pretty hard to un-bake something.
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But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism.
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On October 25 2017 00:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 23:18 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round... That would be the competing narrative ... On October 24 2017 19:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:On October 24 2017 10:30 GoTuNk! wrote:
[quote]
Trump might not be as elocuent as Obama, but he is yet to destroy the middle east or stagnate the U.S. economy for multiple years. Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison. Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do. You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why. When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly. Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare! I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views. I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here. Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time. Yeah, it's the "trollish bullshit" of the salon, slate, motherjones, thinkprogress style. Those thoughts obviously resonate a lot more with the leftists in this thread. I've yet to see interesting discussions arising from the proposition that this country was built on the backs of exploited people and a pressing social need is to acknowledge your own white privilege and stop exploitation. It's built on so many fallacies and reductionism that you have to unpack every three words. Even then, it's likely the opposite side isn't open to accepting the country is so much more because there's been too many years of indoctrination that the country (and sometimes all western civ) is largely exploitative. On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both. Probably for the same reason I presume people here don't post a lot on conservative internet outlets and The_Donald. You get called racists and white supremacists in this forum (or at least advocating those ideologies), and you'd get called cucks and globalists in places like the_Donald. It's whether you want to stand the abuse and either practice or observe. Pointing out when people make racist posts or advocate white supremacy isn't abuse. I find it amusing you talk of indoctrination like all of US history wasn't indoctrinating people to think like you do despite reality. You probably really believe TJ would have written the declaration/constitution if he wasn't born rich and stayed rich because he and his family exploited people in the worst ways imaginable. That's a categorically stupid (but popular in your circles I imagine) notion. It's your (and others who say this trash) refusal to come to grips with the reality of how America got where it is and only wanting to remember the parts that make you feel righteous in your ignorance that are at the core of this terribly misguided victim complex. You embody this very elite opinion that only what you say counts as stigmatic and abusive should count as samesuch. Similarly, that your conception and conclusion about the history of the US since it's founding, that it's accurately summed up as built on oppression, is the only conception and conclusion possible. Same on class warfare, which I'd call "categorically stupid." I instead thing you're dead wrong on all these fronts. Slavery was a bad chapter and we fought a very bloody war over it, and like Frederick Douglass came to believe, the constitution was always intolerant of slavery. We can stay here all day and tell the other, essentially, you're living in a different reality and mine is the truer telling of the story.
You're just wrong.
First you didn't read/comprehend what I originally stated. This country was built on the backs of exploited people. That's not up for debate and you can find people throughout history (founders included) that not just acknowledge it, but argue it's necessity.
This doesn't get to be a difference of opinion. It's a fact of history period. Now you naturally (and I can't totally blame you) ignored that I was clearly including exploited white people.
Slavery wasn't "a bad chapter", it was just when we tend to start the clock. The Rolling Stones were on tour the last time the FBI collaborated with Police and the justice system to assassinate a black social leader and make sure no one went to prison, spoiler alert, they are still on tour.
You should just keep Fredrick Douglass' name out your mouth since you have no idea what he was talking about. You're right in that we are in different realities, but I you know I won't let you spread that trash unchallenged.
On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism.
The country was founded on the backs of exploited people.
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Here's the thing that confuses me. Trump supporters are an amorphous group without public statements or actions for us to scrutinize and determine what they believe. It's hard enough to demonstrate whether someone is racist or not when you can look at their words and actions; it's probably impossible to have a good evidence-based discussion on whether Trump supporters are racists or not.
But it's not hard to show Trump said a lot of racially inflammatory things (i.e. things many of us liberals would consider racist). That was a constant theme of his campaign, so the obvious question is, why? I can imagine a few explanations:
1) Trump's not racist, he's just an idiot who says dumb (sometimes racially inflammatory) stuff; and Trump supporters don't like it, but they tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
2) Trump's racist, so he says racially inflammatory stuff; but his supporters don't like it, they just tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
3) Trump's not racist, but he says racially inflammatory stuff because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
4) Trump's a racist, but he only says racially inflammatory stuff openly because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
Looking at how both the primary and general went, I see little evidence that Trump's racially inflammatory comments were a detriment to his campaign. The Judge Curiel thing maybe hurt him a little in the polls, and the Khizr Khan stuff seemed like it did, but that might have just been the convention bounce for Hillary. Meanwhile "they're rapists and drug dealers," dragging victims of violent crimes committed by Hispanics out in front of rallies, etc. didn't seem to hurt him at all. Nor did people pointing out his buildings discriminating against blacks in the 70's. Nor did people bringing up the "Black guys counting my money! I hate it" stuff.
At a certain point, you have to consider the possibility that either 3 or 4 was at least partially true – that part of Trump's surprising success stemmed from people underestimating how much people wanted to hear their politicians say racist stuff. This isn't to say that all Trump supporters are racist, or that racism is the primary reason Trump won, but it is to say that if race doesn't factor into your explanation of Trump winning, or if it does only in the form of "non-racist people were tired of being called racist so they voted for a guy that says racist stuff," you're missing something.
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