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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
There's a book in zlefin's sig that I feel you would all benefit from reading, if you haven't done so already. ("Denmocracy for realists".)
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Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke has directed millions of dollars in political contributions since 2014 to a network of Washington operatives that prominent conservatives have accused of profiting by misleading donors.
Beneficiaries of Zinke’s largesse include groups linked to Washington-area political operative Scott B. Mackenzie, organizer of a Virgin Islands GOP political action committee that hosted the secretary at a St. Croix fundraiser in March. Before that, when Zinke was a Republican congressman from Montana, his political operation steered significant portions of its spending to a handful of Washington, D.C.-area consulting firms that also have had ties to Mackenzie and his associates.
Zinke has continued this relationship even as other Republicans have recoiled from dealing with Mackenzie, whose critics say he operates "scam PACs" that raise small-dollar donations from conservative voters but then spend the bulk of the money on consultants and overhead. The critics include former Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, who filed a suit accusing Mackenzie and other defendants of running a “national fundraising scam” after they gave his 2013 campaign for governor less than a half percent of the money they had raised in his name.
Similarly, Zinke’s own leadership PAC also relied heavily on small donors while spending heavily on consultants, in a departure from how most members of Congress operate those kinds of groups.
The details about Zinke's fundraising and spending practices have not been previously reported, nor has his years-long relationship with Mackenzie’s Virgin Islands Republican Party, a group that some Republicans in the Caribbean island chain have accused of misrepresenting itself to donors. POLITICO’s analysis of Federal Election Commission filings, plus interviews with campaign finance lawyers and people familiar with the Virgin Islands group’s fundraising, offer a deeper picture of the political activism of the retired Navy SEAL who serves in President Donald Trump’s Cabinet.
None of the records indicate that Zinke violated the law or received any direct compensation from his association with Mackenzie, the Virgin Islands PAC or its consultants. But one campaign finance expert said the information shows that Zinke was not behaving like a typical politician.
“To say the least, this is highly unusual,” said Karl Sandstrom, a former Democratic FEC commissioner who now works at the law firm Perkins Coie.
An Interior Department spokeswoman declined to comment on the assistance Zinke has offered to the Virgin Islands group or his use of political consultants. Mackenzie declined to be interviewed, and officials from the Virgin Islands organization — also known as VIGOP — did not respond to requests for comment.
Zinke is separately facing investigations by Interior's internal watchdog and the independent Office of Special Counsel over his habit of mixing politics and official business.
Legal limits on Zinke’s partisan activities have tightened now that he’s Interior secretary, and he has cut ties with his PACs since being sworn in. Still, he has kept up appearances at fundraisers and other political events — averaging more than one per month — a pace that is unusual for a Cabinet member. Those include his appearance at the March fundraiser in the Virgin Islands, which occurred during a taxpayer-funded trip less than a month after he became secretary.
Complaints among Republicans about “scam PACS” have been on the rise for years, focusing on groups that target conservative voters as a source for donations. Those complaints have repeatedly focused on Mackenzie, the founder of a number of GOP-leaning PACs that have used slogans such as “Stop Hillary Clinton” to raise money from conservatives — then appeared to do little actual politicking.
Such groups make use of what past FEC leaders have described as a loophole in campaign finance law. The commission declined to take action against one of Mackenzie’s Virginia-based PACs, the Conservative StrikeForce, after former Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.) complained in 2012 that it had been “fraudulent” in raising money from his supporters while falsely implying it would aid his reelection campaign. While the PAC’s actions were "troubling," the commission’s attorneys wrote, they didn’t violate any laws or rules that the FEC has the power to enforce.
Cuccinelli made similar criticisms in his 2014 lawsuit, which accused Mackenzie, Conservative StrikeForce and other defendants of using the bulk of the money they had raised in his name to “enrich themselves.” The case was eventually settled, with Conservative StrikeForce agreeing to pay Cuccinelli's campaign $85,000 and turn over its donor lists.
Conservative commentator Erick Erickson warned campaigns as far back as 2010 that he might not endorse any Republican candidate who used one Mackenzie-linked consulting firm, then known as Base Connect and now called ForthRight Strategy. Montana Democrats accused Zinke of facilitating a "political Ponzi scheme" with his connections to Mackenzie-linked firms during his 2014 congressional campaign, though the charges apparently gained little traction.
Source
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On October 25 2017 00:57 Danglars wrote:
It's only in a corrupt Republican party that doesn't understand the base's views on immigration (and wants it to forget the Reagan amnesty sellout that never gave the promised accompanying border security) that made Trump necessary.
Take note that here you are not blaming Democrats for Trump. There is inconsistency in your overall assessment of Trump - before saying that he's just detestable in every way but not being Hillary, but here saying that he's "necessary," was asking the "right questions," and "single handedly" moved the immigration debate. Your attempt to piggyback on the travesty of the election of Donald Trump, which was the fault of Republicans, fails to recognize that the overwhelming thrust of Trump's presidency is negative and counterproductive - and that those who cast votes for him are responsible.
And no, Trump's racially inflammatory rhetoric does NOT simply come out in the wash of his overall inflammatory rhetoric. Rhetoric that is obviously racially inflammatory does not get nullified by that fact that you think liberals misperceive the race issue (hurr durr Trump didn't purposely say "they're rapists, they're criminals, and some, I assume, are good people").
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On October 25 2017 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick. I have to give you credit for getting all the mileage you can out of that quote. You know it's the same thing Frederick Douglass was saying when you tried to pretend you understood him before? EDIT: Take the L, I'm getting secondhand embarrassment.
Dude, just read Frederick Douglass if you missed his statements on the constitution. I can find the pdf later tonight if you really want to rediscover him.
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On October 25 2017 01:05 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick. It is almost like the world isn't black and white and you can be proud of some things and disappointed in others.... it is almost like that..... Lets put it this way, I love my girlfriend but I hate that she likes league of legends over dota. I still love her and there are so many great things about her, but she has a dark spot I can't ignore. Same with America
Does your girlfriend think the flag is representative of the oppression of black people? Does she think the proper take on police is that there's bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? This isn't a really benign thing, like maybe my belief that African American communities are less able to respond to police brutality even though police brutality affects everyone and whites get shot in far larger numbers than blacks. Also, read the past couple pages because you might have an opinion about American being built on the back of oppression. That's a pretty black and white statement if you ask me.
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Seriously, Trump, you're uniquely blessed by the quality of your enemies. You'd be below 20 approval without them. Find your next focus for the outrage cycle.
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...are you saying that Corker is what Trump accused him of being? Namely, a liddle' incompetent lightweight who turned into sour grapes over Trump's "refusal" to endorse him?
Corker said in an interview today that Trump told him 4 times that he would endorse Corker if he ran again. Corker decided not to run anyways. I know which one of Trump and Corker I find more credible.
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On October 25 2017 01:22 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:05 IyMoon wrote:On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick. It is almost like the world isn't black and white and you can be proud of some things and disappointed in others.... it is almost like that..... Lets put it this way, I love my girlfriend but I hate that she likes league of legends over dota. I still love her and there are so many great things about her, but she has a dark spot I can't ignore. Same with America Does your girlfriend think the flag is representative of the oppression of black people? Does she think the proper take on police is that there's bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? This isn't a really benign thing, like maybe my belief that African American communities are less able to respond to police brutality even though police brutality affects everyone and whites get shot in far larger numbers than blacks. Also, read the past couple pages because you might have an opinion about American being built on the back of oppression. That's a pretty black and white statement if you ask me.
Does might white middle class girlfriend think that? Probably not. Do my black friends think that? They might, I will ask them.
Any nation that starts with slavery is clearly built on the back of oppression, there is no way around that. The grey part is that America did a lot of great things while also having this really shitty past. The oppression is the dark part, the good things are the light, we mix them together and get the grey!
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On October 25 2017 01:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote:...are you saying that Corker is what Trump accused him of being? Namely, a liddle' incompetent lightweight who turned into sour grapes over Trump's "refusal" to endorse him? Corker said in an interview today that Trump told him 4 times that he would endorse Corker if he ran again. Corker decided not to run anyways. I know which one of Trump and Corker I find more credible.
Anyone who believes a single thing Trump said is either a moron or trolling. I know that sounds like hyperbole but it isn't at all. His track record is of consistent lying about absolutely everything and anything, and then doubling down on those lies. Even most of his supporters know he is lying and the rest must lack the ability to think critically about anything.
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There's something almost Chinese or Russia about Danglars inability to understand that you can love your country and be proud of its accomplishments yet be critical of its past actions and history.
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On October 25 2017 01:39 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:22 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:05 IyMoon wrote:On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick. It is almost like the world isn't black and white and you can be proud of some things and disappointed in others.... it is almost like that..... Lets put it this way, I love my girlfriend but I hate that she likes league of legends over dota. I still love her and there are so many great things about her, but she has a dark spot I can't ignore. Same with America Does your girlfriend think the flag is representative of the oppression of black people? Does she think the proper take on police is that there's bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? This isn't a really benign thing, like maybe my belief that African American communities are less able to respond to police brutality even though police brutality affects everyone and whites get shot in far larger numbers than blacks. Also, read the past couple pages because you might have an opinion about American being built on the back of oppression. That's a pretty black and white statement if you ask me. Does might white middle class girlfriend think that? Probably not. Do my black friends think that? They might, I will ask them. Any nation that starts with slavery is clearly built on the back of oppression, there is no way around that. The grey part is that America did a lot of great things while also having this really shitty past. The oppression is the dark part, the good things are the light, we mix them together and get the grey!
So if I get this right, you bring up your white middle class girlfriend for making a choice between two preferences in video games, but won't trot her out for flags symbolizing oppression, bodies in the street, cops getting away with murder. I wonder why you bring her up in the first place if you're willing to see there's a difference in magnitude.
I see the constitution and colonists making a great nation with checks and balances that is largely responsible for its future success (xDaunt might add some about western civilization and blessings from God, but this probably isn't the forum that can understand that perspective). Slavery was valuable to the economies of the south but played a minimal role in the institutions and freedoms that defined American success. We payed a very bloody price for not revolting against the world's standards at that time. It crippled the South for a generation or more. There isn't as much grey area if you think history demonstrates slavery wasn't an important building block in the foundation of the country. There's plenty of reason to oppose this notion because of the lengths racial zealots will go to to criticize America's founding and the constitution that made the nation.
Let me know the results from talking to your black friends (Does the flag stand for oppression? Was the nation built on oppression? Is it accurate to describe policing as bodies in the streets and cops getting away with murder sitting on pensions? Hell, let me know if you can explain to your white middle-class girlfriend your take on the grey area .. that league of legends vs dota is kind of like the grey area between our luminous founders and the bad slaveholders.
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On October 25 2017 01:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's something almost Chinese or Russia about Danglars inability to understand that you can love your country and be proud of its accomplishments yet be critical of its past actions and history.
There's really something very rejecting of reality to draw big implications of racists then retreat to calling others too black and white. I'll make you a shit sandwich with only 50% shit and tell you to not be so black and white, because the other 50% is some delectable roast beef. Eat up or you're a Chinese/Russian.
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On October 25 2017 01:49 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:39 IyMoon wrote:On October 25 2017 01:22 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:05 IyMoon wrote:On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick. It is almost like the world isn't black and white and you can be proud of some things and disappointed in others.... it is almost like that..... Lets put it this way, I love my girlfriend but I hate that she likes league of legends over dota. I still love her and there are so many great things about her, but she has a dark spot I can't ignore. Same with America Does your girlfriend think the flag is representative of the oppression of black people? Does she think the proper take on police is that there's bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? This isn't a really benign thing, like maybe my belief that African American communities are less able to respond to police brutality even though police brutality affects everyone and whites get shot in far larger numbers than blacks. Also, read the past couple pages because you might have an opinion about American being built on the back of oppression. That's a pretty black and white statement if you ask me. Does might white middle class girlfriend think that? Probably not. Do my black friends think that? They might, I will ask them. Any nation that starts with slavery is clearly built on the back of oppression, there is no way around that. The grey part is that America did a lot of great things while also having this really shitty past. The oppression is the dark part, the good things are the light, we mix them together and get the grey! So if I get this right, you bring up your white middle class girlfriend for making a choice between two preferences in video games, but won't trot her out for flags symbolizing oppression, bodies in the street, cops getting away with murder. I wonder why you bring her up in the first place if you're willing to see there's a difference in magnitude. I see the constitution and colonists making a great nation with checks and balances that is largely responsible for its future success (xDaunt might add some about western civilization and blessings from God, but this probably isn't the forum that can understand that perspective). Slavery was valuable to the economies of the south but played a minimal role in the institutions and freedoms that defined American success. We payed a very bloody price for not revolting against the world's standards at that time. It crippled the South for a generation or more. There isn't as much grey area if you think history demonstrates slavery wasn't an important building block in the foundation of the country. There's plenty of reason to oppose this notion because of the lengths racial zealots will go to to criticize America's founding and the constitution that made the nation. Let me know the results from talking to your black friends (Does the flag stand for oppression? Was the nation built on oppression? Is it accurate to describe policing as bodies in the streets and cops getting away with murder sitting on pensions? Hell, let me know if you can explain to your white middle-class girlfriend your take on the grey area .. that league of legends vs dota is kind of like the grey area between our luminous founders and the bad slaveholders.
Dude, you're going way too hard on this comparison of mine when I was trying to dumb down something you did not seem to be getting.
So you are saying the ends justify the means when it comes to americas past? That because it did some good things that it is okay that it was built on a lot of shit? That you dont even see it as bad because of what happened?
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One thing I've been wondering: Based on everything I know about social programs intended to empower poor communities so that lowly people are able to go to college and have jobs that generate a lot of tax revenue, wouldn't that mean slavery actually hurt us? It isn't that the US was able to siphon productivity from slaves, right? What really happened is that we lost productive members of society by only allowing them a limited scope of contribution.
If we taught the slaves to be scientists, engineers, agricultural designers and shit like that, wouldn't the US have actually benefitted more than by using slaves? If so, wouldn't that mean that "built on slavery" actually set us back?
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On October 25 2017 01:53 Mohdoo wrote:
One thing I've been wondering: Based on everything I know about social programs intended to empower poor communities so that lowly people are able to go to college and have jobs that generate a lot of tax revenue, wouldn't that mean slavery actually hurt us? It isn't that the US was able to siphon productivity from slaves, right? What really happened is that we lost productive members of society by only allowing them a limited scope of contribution.
If we taught the slaves to be scientists, engineers, agricultural designers and shit like that, wouldn't the US have actually benefitted more than by using slaves? If so, wouldn't that mean that "built on slavery" actually set us back?
While I think your hypo goes down a path with far too many moving parts to be of much use, I think you are right to suggest that our nation's inability to answer the slavery question during its foundation and relative youth absolutely stifled our progress to some degree.
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On October 25 2017 01:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's something almost Chinese or Russia about Danglars inability to understand that you can love your country and be proud of its accomplishments yet be critical of its past actions and history. There's really something very rejecting of reality to draw big implications of racists then retreat to calling others too black and white. I'll make you a shit sandwich with only 50% shit and tell you to not be so black and white, because the other 50% is some delectable roast beef. Eat up or you're a Chinese/Russian.
What??? Whenever you type, I get the feeling I am missing some sort of cultural context I am not aware of.
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On October 25 2017 01:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:50 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's something almost Chinese or Russia about Danglars inability to understand that you can love your country and be proud of its accomplishments yet be critical of its past actions and history. There's really something very rejecting of reality to draw big implications of racists then retreat to calling others too black and white. I'll make you a shit sandwich with only 50% shit and tell you to not be so black and white, because the other 50% is some delectable roast beef. Eat up or you're a Chinese/Russian. What???
I've read it four times and I still don't get it. But I think it boils down to something being shit and he is being told to eat it. Or something.
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On October 25 2017 01:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:50 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's something almost Chinese or Russia about Danglars inability to understand that you can love your country and be proud of its accomplishments yet be critical of its past actions and history. There's really something very rejecting of reality to draw big implications of racists then retreat to calling others too black and white. I'll make you a shit sandwich with only 50% shit and tell you to not be so black and white, because the other 50% is some delectable roast beef. Eat up or you're a Chinese/Russian. What??? Whenever you type, I get the feeling I am missing some sort of cultural context I am not aware of.
You're not missing anything, the incredulity you speak of knows no cultural bounds.
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On October 25 2017 01:52 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:49 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:39 IyMoon wrote:On October 25 2017 01:22 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:05 IyMoon wrote:On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick. It is almost like the world isn't black and white and you can be proud of some things and disappointed in others.... it is almost like that..... Lets put it this way, I love my girlfriend but I hate that she likes league of legends over dota. I still love her and there are so many great things about her, but she has a dark spot I can't ignore. Same with America Does your girlfriend think the flag is representative of the oppression of black people? Does she think the proper take on police is that there's bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder? This isn't a really benign thing, like maybe my belief that African American communities are less able to respond to police brutality even though police brutality affects everyone and whites get shot in far larger numbers than blacks. Also, read the past couple pages because you might have an opinion about American being built on the back of oppression. That's a pretty black and white statement if you ask me. Does might white middle class girlfriend think that? Probably not. Do my black friends think that? They might, I will ask them. Any nation that starts with slavery is clearly built on the back of oppression, there is no way around that. The grey part is that America did a lot of great things while also having this really shitty past. The oppression is the dark part, the good things are the light, we mix them together and get the grey! So if I get this right, you bring up your white middle class girlfriend for making a choice between two preferences in video games, but won't trot her out for flags symbolizing oppression, bodies in the street, cops getting away with murder. I wonder why you bring her up in the first place if you're willing to see there's a difference in magnitude. I see the constitution and colonists making a great nation with checks and balances that is largely responsible for its future success (xDaunt might add some about western civilization and blessings from God, but this probably isn't the forum that can understand that perspective). Slavery was valuable to the economies of the south but played a minimal role in the institutions and freedoms that defined American success. We payed a very bloody price for not revolting against the world's standards at that time. It crippled the South for a generation or more. There isn't as much grey area if you think history demonstrates slavery wasn't an important building block in the foundation of the country. There's plenty of reason to oppose this notion because of the lengths racial zealots will go to to criticize America's founding and the constitution that made the nation. Let me know the results from talking to your black friends (Does the flag stand for oppression? Was the nation built on oppression? Is it accurate to describe policing as bodies in the streets and cops getting away with murder sitting on pensions? Hell, let me know if you can explain to your white middle-class girlfriend your take on the grey area .. that league of legends vs dota is kind of like the grey area between our luminous founders and the bad slaveholders. Dude, you're going way too hard on this comparison of mine when I was trying to dumb down something you did not seem to be getting. So you are saying the ends justify the means when it comes to americas past? That because it did some good things that it is okay that it was built on a lot of shit? That you dont even see it as bad because of what happened?
Nope. I'm identifying very different areas for describing how America was built and what was responsible for its future success. If you describe it as being built on oppression, you're very much missing the big picture, though you'd be right to call attention to it to criticize the three fifths compromise, the wealth of the South, and the origins of the Civil War. I don't really see why you have to retreat to grey areas if the original statements are pretty black and white, as described by me in the second post.
Let me know the results from talking to your black friends on the questions. Also, I take it you don't think your white girlfriend ignorant enough to learn of these issues facing the country when you described her as white and middle-class. Maybe see how she reacts too. I don't want to think her upbringing makes her blind to deciding one way or another after a decent time reading articles from both sides, though you did call attention to her race and class to conclude "Probably not."
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On October 25 2017 01:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 01:50 Danglars wrote:On October 25 2017 01:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's something almost Chinese or Russia about Danglars inability to understand that you can love your country and be proud of its accomplishments yet be critical of its past actions and history. There's really something very rejecting of reality to draw big implications of racists then retreat to calling others too black and white. I'll make you a shit sandwich with only 50% shit and tell you to not be so black and white, because the other 50% is some delectable roast beef. Eat up or you're a Chinese/Russian. What??? Whenever you type, I get the feeling I am missing some sort of cultural context I am not aware of.
The issue is that it's not a simple criticism of its past actions and history, it is a broad characterization of what they were and mean. If you think the size of importance and broad construal is a load of shit, maybe you can understand why subjecting that to criticism isn't some Chinese or Russian blind love of country and pride in its accomplishments. You're mixing a shit sandwich and telling people because it's only 50% shit, rejecting the sandwich is tantamount to ignoring criticism of the country. It's not the purity of the nation's history, it's the ahistorical race and class warfare bullshit that's being peddled as criticism. But if you can't see the two (All criticism is just an emanation of correct criticism) then our problem is understanding nuance and not anything else.
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EPT
