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On October 24 2017 23:22 Danglars wrote:This is another reason I doubt small tax cuts will get passed. Corker is already disgraced and retired instead of losing his primary. He's going in it with nothing to lose and only accolades from RINOs/leftists to gain. Trump doesn't need to waste his breath until the failed vote, and even then most elected Republicans will be more worried with their own re-election campaigns having failed ACA repeal, tax cuts, and immigration. Trump's criticism has got to be lowest on the line of priorities.
Came into this thread expecting criticism of Corker for responding to that tweet from Trump (because obviously Corker should let that tweet stand). Was not disappointed.
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On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism.
We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor.
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On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor.
But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past?
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On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor.
While the south was definitely fighting to keep their slaves, the north wasn't fighting to free them (until the end of the war sorta).
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
Lincoln was fighting to save the union, slavery was a bargaining chip.
On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings". The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past?
There's a lot of space between celebrating history and celebrating fairy tale retellings.
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On October 25 2017 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:07 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 23:18 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round... That would be the competing narrative ... On October 24 2017 19:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:On October 24 2017 11:23 PhoenixVoid wrote:
[quote]
Placing the blame on Obama for what Bush Jr. did isn't a reasonable comparison. Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do. You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why. When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly. Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare! I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views. I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here. Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time. Yeah, it's the "trollish bullshit" of the salon, slate, motherjones, thinkprogress style. Those thoughts obviously resonate a lot more with the leftists in this thread. I've yet to see interesting discussions arising from the proposition that this country was built on the backs of exploited people and a pressing social need is to acknowledge your own white privilege and stop exploitation. It's built on so many fallacies and reductionism that you have to unpack every three words. Even then, it's likely the opposite side isn't open to accepting the country is so much more because there's been too many years of indoctrination that the country (and sometimes all western civ) is largely exploitative. On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both. Probably for the same reason I presume people here don't post a lot on conservative internet outlets and The_Donald. You get called racists and white supremacists in this forum (or at least advocating those ideologies), and you'd get called cucks and globalists in places like the_Donald. It's whether you want to stand the abuse and either practice or observe. Pointing out when people make racist posts or advocate white supremacy isn't abuse. I find it amusing you talk of indoctrination like all of US history wasn't indoctrinating people to think like you do despite reality. You probably really believe TJ would have written the declaration/constitution if he wasn't born rich and stayed rich because he and his family exploited people in the worst ways imaginable. That's a categorically stupid (but popular in your circles I imagine) notion. It's your (and others who say this trash) refusal to come to grips with the reality of how America got where it is and only wanting to remember the parts that make you feel righteous in your ignorance that are at the core of this terribly misguided victim complex. You embody this very elite opinion that only what you say counts as stigmatic and abusive should count as samesuch. Similarly, that your conception and conclusion about the history of the US since it's founding, that it's accurately summed up as built on oppression, is the only conception and conclusion possible. Same on class warfare, which I'd call "categorically stupid." I instead thing you're dead wrong on all these fronts. Slavery was a bad chapter and we fought a very bloody war over it, and like Frederick Douglass came to believe, the constitution was always intolerant of slavery. We can stay here all day and tell the other, essentially, you're living in a different reality and mine is the truer telling of the story. You're just wrong. First you didn't read/comprehend what I originally stated. This country was built on the backs of exploited people. That's not up for debate and you can find people throughout history (founders included) that not just acknowledge it, but argue it's necessity.
If only you were the czar of what is and isn't up to debate. Remember what I said? That we're both going to point across the aisle and say the other lives in an alternate reality? Yes. You live in an alternate reality.
This doesn't get to be a difference of opinion. It's a fact of history period. Now you naturally (and I can't totally blame you) ignored that I was clearly including exploited white people.
Slavery wasn't "a bad chapter", it was just when we tend to start the clock. The Rolling Stones were on tour the last time the FBI collaborated with Police and the justice system to assassinate a black social leader and make sure no one went to prison, spoiler alert, they are still on tour.
You should just keep Fredrick Douglass' name out your mouth since you have no idea what he was talking about. You're right in that we are in different realities, but I you know I won't let you spread that trash unchallenged.
Yes, and there was injustice against minorities through the civil rights era. And there was also great things done by Americans including PoC such as American involvement in two world wars, a vibrant economy that made our poor the envy of the world, and a technology boom that never really ended. We're the immigrant destination for the world not because of the flaws (usually by not always overhyped by you), but because they know this is a land of opportunity and largely rewards hard work for the next generation. I might think you had an argument if the world's shitholes stayed away from our country because of how it supposedly treats its underclass.
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On October 25 2017 00:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. While the south was definitely fighting to keep their slaves, the north wasn't fighting to free them (until the end of the war sorta). "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." Lincoln was fighting to save the union, slavery was a bargaining chip. Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings". The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? There's a lot of space between celebrating history and celebrating fairy tale retellings.
So do you think if Lincoln could have ended the war a year or two earlier if he was willing to accept slavery continuing he would have done it?
On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings". The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past?
There's a lot of space between celebrating history and celebrating fairy tale retellings.[/QUOTE]
So whats acceptable to you to celebrate any part of history? Do you want disclaimers a page deep on every monument and every history class to be mostly disclaimers on everything the people did bad throughout history to do the few things they did good?
On October 25 2017 00:43 farvacola wrote:
In addition to being ambivalent on slavery at best, most of the Union military leadership followed up on the North's victory with incredible acts of brutality as they pushed natives out of land taken back while the Civil War was fought, Philip Sheridan especially.
And everyone seems to be okay with ignoring Shermans march to the sea as being one of the largest war crimes ever fully documented and contributing a lot to the souths economic troubles after the civil war.
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In addition to being ambivalent on slavery at best, most of the Union military leadership followed up on the North's victory with incredible acts of brutality as they pushed natives out of land taken back while the Civil War was fought, Philip Sheridan especially.
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On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings". The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past?
I never said I wasn’t happy with my country’s past. I love history and studying it. I got an entire degree in US history, knowing full well this country was founded on the backs of oppressed people. We are also the oldest democracy in the world. We have become the home to one of the most diverse populations in the world. There are plenty of things to champion about the US.
So the answer is no. We will never stop talking about the history of racism in the US. And we will never stop fighting racism, because it will always try to come back. Once we stop searching for victory over racism, it becomes a lot easier to see it as a duty to make sure it doesn’t take root in seats of power.
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On October 25 2017 00:27 ChristianS wrote:
Here's the thing that confuses me. Trump supporters are an amorphous group without public statements or actions for us to scrutinize and determine what they believe. It's hard enough to demonstrate whether someone is racist or not when you can look at their words and actions; it's probably impossible to have a good evidence-based discussion on whether Trump supporters are racists or not.
But it's not hard to show Trump said a lot of racially inflammatory things (i.e. things many of us liberals would consider racist). That was a constant theme of his campaign, so the obvious question is, why? I can imagine a few explanations:
1) Trump's not racist, he's just an idiot who says dumb (sometimes racially inflammatory) stuff; and Trump supporters don't like it, but they tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
2) Trump's racist, so he says racially inflammatory stuff; but his supporters don't like it, they just tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
3) Trump's not racist, but he says racially inflammatory stuff because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
4) Trump's a racist, but he only says racially inflammatory stuff openly because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
Looking at how both the primary and general went, I see little evidence that Trump's racially inflammatory comments were a detriment to his campaign. The Judge Curiel thing maybe hurt him a little in the polls, and the Khizr Khan stuff seemed like it did, but that might have just been the convention bounce for Hillary. Meanwhile "they're rapists and drug dealers," dragging victims of violent crimes committed by Hispanics out in front of rallies, etc. didn't seem to hurt him at all. Nor did people pointing out his buildings discriminating against blacks in the 70's. Nor did people bringing up the "Black guys counting my money! I hate it" stuff.
At a certain point, you have to consider the possibility that either 3 or 4 was at least partially true – that part of Trump's surprising success stemmed from people underestimating how much people wanted to hear their politicians say racist stuff. This isn't to say that all Trump supporters are racist, or that racism is the primary reason Trump won, but it is to say that if race doesn't factor into your explanation of Trump winning, or if it does only in the form of "non-racist people were tired of being called racist so they voted for a guy that says racist stuff," you're missing something.
In all those cases your either a racist, or an enabler of racists.
When your supporting 'your guy' and on one side of you stands a member of the KKK and on the other a Nazi waving a swastika maybe you should consider what your supporting and how the public will view your support of that person, even if you did so with the best of intentions.
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On October 25 2017 00:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:27 ChristianS wrote:
Here's the thing that confuses me. Trump supporters are an amorphous group without public statements or actions for us to scrutinize and determine what they believe. It's hard enough to demonstrate whether someone is racist or not when you can look at their words and actions; it's probably impossible to have a good evidence-based discussion on whether Trump supporters are racists or not.
But it's not hard to show Trump said a lot of racially inflammatory things (i.e. things many of us liberals would consider racist). That was a constant theme of his campaign, so the obvious question is, why? I can imagine a few explanations:
1) Trump's not racist, he's just an idiot who says dumb (sometimes racially inflammatory) stuff; and Trump supporters don't like it, but they tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
2) Trump's racist, so he says racially inflammatory stuff; but his supporters don't like it, they just tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
3) Trump's not racist, but he says racially inflammatory stuff because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
4) Trump's a racist, but he only says racially inflammatory stuff openly because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
Looking at how both the primary and general went, I see little evidence that Trump's racially inflammatory comments were a detriment to his campaign. The Judge Curiel thing maybe hurt him a little in the polls, and the Khizr Khan stuff seemed like it did, but that might have just been the convention bounce for Hillary. Meanwhile "they're rapists and drug dealers," dragging victims of violent crimes committed by Hispanics out in front of rallies, etc. didn't seem to hurt him at all. Nor did people pointing out his buildings discriminating against blacks in the 70's. Nor did people bringing up the "Black guys counting my money! I hate it" stuff.
At a certain point, you have to consider the possibility that either 3 or 4 was at least partially true – that part of Trump's surprising success stemmed from people underestimating how much people wanted to hear their politicians say racist stuff. This isn't to say that all Trump supporters are racist, or that racism is the primary reason Trump won, but it is to say that if race doesn't factor into your explanation of Trump winning, or if it does only in the form of "non-racist people were tired of being called racist so they voted for a guy that says racist stuff," you're missing something. In all those cases your either a racist, or an enabler of racists. When your supporting 'your guy' and on one side of you stands a member of the KKK and on the other a Nazi waving a swastika maybe you should consider what your supporting and how the public will view your support of that person, even if you did so with the best of intentions.
though for the sake of a reality check- doing so to stick it to the blues is not the best of intentions.
@Sermo- what? who here is trying to celebrate Gen Sherman? or even saying the shit he did is ok?
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William Tecumseh Sherman is an incredibly interesting and highly divisive fellow, but the notion that his scorched earth tactics played a figurative role in the economic problems facing the postbellum South simply doesn't square with the other systemic and far more significant problems inherent to trying to build a society on the back of slave-based agrarian industry and little more. Sherman could have necktied every rail in the South and it still wouldn't have measured up.
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On October 25 2017 00:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 25 2017 00:07 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 23:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 23:18 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 15:37 Furikawari wrote:
That's strange, because seen from here it's more like trumpets are all about white privilege/supremacy, not the other way round... That would be the competing narrative ... On October 24 2017 19:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 24 2017 15:34 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 14:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 24 2017 13:41 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2017 11:38 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Neither is responding to claims of Trumpist love for Breitbart and Infowars with "but WaPo and CNN are just as bad!", but hey, what can ya do. You've got to laugh at politics more. He does absurd things and he'll do damage as a quasi-leader (more of a symbol) of a rebellious movement to politics. The movement's real and the problems are real. You're still stuck on the figurehead and not why he's up behind podiums. I don't consider taking the easy way out by blaming malicious moron voters or race is actually trying to find out the why. When you build a country on the backs of exploited people, and you want to continue to enjoy that privilege, you eventually have to choose between exploiting more of the in-group and/or exploiting the out-group more ruthlessly. Well, that’s the reductive and detestable opinion that did its part to elect Trump. Hate your country, think slavery is its original sin and life force? Sign up for the Democratic Party where it’s all in for white guilt and class and race warfare! I had to double check the poster name to make sure it wasn’t a parody of sincerely held views. I was gonna answer something then i realized we really could be having a fairly interesting discussion if it was not for you spitting this kind of trollish bullshit. It's not fucking Breitbart here. Can you stop, please? Thanks in advance. If you have something to contribute with, feel free. With this kind of post, you are just wasting everyone's time. Yeah, it's the "trollish bullshit" of the salon, slate, motherjones, thinkprogress style. Those thoughts obviously resonate a lot more with the leftists in this thread. I've yet to see interesting discussions arising from the proposition that this country was built on the backs of exploited people and a pressing social need is to acknowledge your own white privilege and stop exploitation. It's built on so many fallacies and reductionism that you have to unpack every three words. Even then, it's likely the opposite side isn't open to accepting the country is so much more because there's been too many years of indoctrination that the country (and sometimes all western civ) is largely exploitative. On October 24 2017 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not too hard to see why few of the Trump supporters leave their echo chambers tbh, people probably aren't too fond of being considered a) idiots b) assholes c) both. Probably for the same reason I presume people here don't post a lot on conservative internet outlets and The_Donald. You get called racists and white supremacists in this forum (or at least advocating those ideologies), and you'd get called cucks and globalists in places like the_Donald. It's whether you want to stand the abuse and either practice or observe. Pointing out when people make racist posts or advocate white supremacy isn't abuse. I find it amusing you talk of indoctrination like all of US history wasn't indoctrinating people to think like you do despite reality. You probably really believe TJ would have written the declaration/constitution if he wasn't born rich and stayed rich because he and his family exploited people in the worst ways imaginable. That's a categorically stupid (but popular in your circles I imagine) notion. It's your (and others who say this trash) refusal to come to grips with the reality of how America got where it is and only wanting to remember the parts that make you feel righteous in your ignorance that are at the core of this terribly misguided victim complex. You embody this very elite opinion that only what you say counts as stigmatic and abusive should count as samesuch. Similarly, that your conception and conclusion about the history of the US since it's founding, that it's accurately summed up as built on oppression, is the only conception and conclusion possible. Same on class warfare, which I'd call "categorically stupid." I instead thing you're dead wrong on all these fronts. Slavery was a bad chapter and we fought a very bloody war over it, and like Frederick Douglass came to believe, the constitution was always intolerant of slavery. We can stay here all day and tell the other, essentially, you're living in a different reality and mine is the truer telling of the story. You're just wrong. First you didn't read/comprehend what I originally stated. This country was built on the backs of exploited people. That's not up for debate and you can find people throughout history (founders included) that not just acknowledge it, but argue it's necessity. If only you were the czar of what is and isn't up to debate. Remember what I said? That we're both going to point across the aisle and say the other lives in an alternate reality? Yes. You live in an alternate reality. Show nested quote +This doesn't get to be a difference of opinion. It's a fact of history period. Now you naturally (and I can't totally blame you) ignored that I was clearly including exploited white people.
Slavery wasn't "a bad chapter", it was just when we tend to start the clock. The Rolling Stones were on tour the last time the FBI collaborated with Police and the justice system to assassinate a black social leader and make sure no one went to prison, spoiler alert, they are still on tour.
You should just keep Fredrick Douglass' name out your mouth since you have no idea what he was talking about. You're right in that we are in different realities, but I you know I won't let you spread that trash unchallenged. Yes, and there was injustice against minorities through the civil rights era. And there was also great things done by Americans including PoC such as American involvement in two world wars, a vibrant economy that made our poor the envy of the world, and a technology boom that never really ended. We're the immigrant destination for the world not because of the flaws (usually by not always overhyped by you), but because they know this is a land of opportunity and largely rewards hard work for the next generation. I might think you had an argument if the world's shitholes stayed away from our country because of how it supposedly treats its underclass.
Yeah, you're just making an obviously and objectively ignorant argument trying to suggest the country wasn't built on the backs of exploited people.
None of what you're saying in any way at all refutes that. Just take the L.
On October 25 2017 00:42 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. While the south was definitely fighting to keep their slaves, the north wasn't fighting to free them (until the end of the war sorta). "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." Lincoln was fighting to save the union, slavery was a bargaining chip. On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings". The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? There's a lot of space between celebrating history and celebrating fairy tale retellings. So do you think if Lincoln could have ended the war a year or two earlier if he was willing to accept slavery continuing he would have done it? Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings". The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? There's a lot of space between celebrating history and celebrating fairy tale retellings.
So whats acceptable to you to celebrate any part of history? Do you want disclaimers a page deep on every monument and every history class to be mostly disclaimers on everything the people did bad throughout history to do the few things they did good?
On October 25 2017 00:43 farvacola wrote:
In addition to being ambivalent on slavery at best, most of the Union military leadership followed up on the North's victory with incredible acts of brutality as they pushed natives out of land taken back while the Civil War was fought, Philip Sheridan especially.
And everyone seems to be okay with ignoring Shermans march to the sea as being one of the largest war crimes ever fully documented and contributing a lot to the souths economic troubles after the civil war. [/quote]
Not disclaimers. Teach history in a way that isn't formulated around maintaining white supremacy.
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On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past?
Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past.
The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love.
Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine.
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On October 25 2017 00:27 ChristianS wrote:
Here's the thing that confuses me. Trump supporters are an amorphous group without public statements or actions for us to scrutinize and determine what they believe. It's hard enough to demonstrate whether someone is racist or not when you can look at their words and actions; it's probably impossible to have a good evidence-based discussion on whether Trump supporters are racists or not.
I think you should spend some more time rereading myself and xDaunt's comments explaining what happened. You might push past what's hard to scrutinize and learn from left-wing sources and help demonstrate your own flawed thinking. Start around the RNC convention and read through to a couple months past the inauguration. If your interaction is to dismiss people on the right stating why the Trump-lovers and reluctant Trump voters made their choice, maybe you prefer to live in the dark or set too high of standards for discussion.
But it's not hard to show Trump said a lot of racially inflammatory things (i.e. things many of us liberals would consider racist). That was a constant theme of his campaign, so the obvious question is, why? I can imagine a few explanations:
1) Trump's not racist, he's just an idiot who says dumb (sometimes racially inflammatory) stuff; and Trump supporters don't like it, but they tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
2) Trump's racist, so he says racially inflammatory stuff; but his supporters don't like it, they just tolerate it because he has other things going for him.
3) Trump's not racist, but he says racially inflammatory stuff because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
4) Trump's a racist, but he only says racially inflammatory stuff openly because his supporters like it when he says that stuff.
Looking at how both the primary and general went, I see little evidence that Trump's racially inflammatory comments were a detriment to his campaign. The Judge Curiel thing maybe hurt him a little in the polls, and the Khizr Khan stuff seemed like it did, but that might have just been the convention bounce for Hillary. Meanwhile "they're rapists and drug dealers," dragging victims of violent crimes committed by Hispanics out in front of rallies, etc. didn't seem to hurt him at all. Nor did people pointing out his buildings discriminating against blacks in the 70's. Nor did people bringing up the "Black guys counting my money! I hate it" stuff.
At a certain point, you have to consider the possibility that either 3 or 4 was at least partially true – that part of Trump's surprising success stemmed from people underestimating how much people wanted to hear their politicians say racist stuff. This isn't to say that all Trump supporters are racist, or that racism is the primary reason Trump won, but it is to say that if race doesn't factor into your explanation of Trump winning, or if it does only in the form of "non-racist people were tired of being called racist so they voted for a guy that says racist stuff," you're missing something.
It's not hard to show he violates politically correct norms in ten ways. I'll give you a breathtakingly obvious opinion: He says derogatory things about everything and everyone, including people that work for him. It's just you want to box in one type of statements and say this alone should be considered without looking at the whole. It makes talking about categorizations with you a remarkably fruitless exercise. I'll even give you the Arpaio pardon as an overtly racist act--too early, too insensitive of his actual acts, and a rather simple case study. For the rest, he never said "they're rapists and drug dealers," the American media ignored repeat offenders of people that got deported and jogged back in multiple times (build the wall), and it makes sense to point out that illegal immigrants aren't screened.
You're missing everything here. It's pretty sad. I want to say you have an open mind behind all these missed opportunities to see both sides, but I keep hearing evidence to the contrary in every post. The dialogue had fallen flat, so America picked the wrong man asking the right questions. The other option was essentially ChristianS's view--you don't understand the basics of what's going on, you look back and can't properly re-examine what made you missed the train, and people have started giving up convincing the race-narrative types of the errors of their ways.
Trump single handedly took the dialogue from discussing what type of amnesty when to when will border security be implemented and what kind. It's only in a corrupt Republican party that doesn't understand the base's views on immigration (and wants it to forget the Reagan amnesty sellout that never gave the promised accompanying border security) that made Trump necessary. That includes what flies as inflammatory now (you have a point behind several layers), and that includes why Trump gained over Romney in the hispanic vote.
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I like Sherman for the military tactics. Removing the morality of it, it's interesting to read. But then again, there are military leaders throughout history that do some really horrid shit. So take it for what it's worth.
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On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine.
Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick.
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On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick.
It is almost like the world isn't black and white and you can be proud of some things and disappointed in others.... it is almost like that.....
Lets put it this way, I love my girlfriend but I hate that she likes league of legends over dota. I still love her and there are so many great things about her, but she has a dark spot I can't ignore. Same with America
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Every time a Trump supporter tries to turn patriotism into a black and white "don't you make me see the grey in my country" ultimatum, a football coach gets his social studies teacher wings.
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On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick.
I have to give you credit for getting all the mileage you can out of that quote. You know it's the same thing Frederick Douglass was saying when you tried to pretend you understood him before?
EDIT: Take the L, I'm getting secondhand embarrassment.
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On October 25 2017 01:02 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2017 00:56 Seuss wrote:On October 25 2017 00:38 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2017 00:28 Plansix wrote:On October 25 2017 00:20 Sermokala wrote:
But its pretty shitty to say that its the most important or even in the very least the foundation of the country. Other things were important and happened outside of racism. We champion the Roman Empire as something worth study and review, even though they engaged in blood sports and slavery. The conflict over slavery was an undercurrent to many of the conflicts among the founding fathers. The US did many worthwhile things that are worth championing, but only if we are honest about our short comings. We fought one of the bloodiest civil wars in all of human history over slavery, but the South never admitted they were wrong. And now we fight over the monuments they created to “states rights” and their heritage. A heritage of fighting for the oppression of an entire race of people through slave labor. But where is the line of "being honest about our short comings"? The minority of people who are fighting for the heritage of opressing people through slave labor is always going to be there. There will always be racism and discrimination based on race. Is there ever going to be an end point where it will be okay to celebrate or be happy about anything in the past? Nobody is saying don't celebrate or be happy about good things from our past. The problem for a lot of people is that things they're used to celebrating have turned out to be less than good. I personally am still struggling with how I feel about Bill Cosby's upcoming trial. His comedy was absolutely definitive and incredibly important to how my sense of humor developed as a child, and even today I can practically recite "Himself" or "To my brother Russel, whom I slept with" from memory. Yet the source of that comedy may be convicted of some really vile actions, and it's hard for me to separate that from the comedy I love. Think about the divide people have on Cosby and then realize that southern pride is so much bigger and more complex that we're over a century into sorting it out and are still largely in the denial stage of processing it. It's not that there aren't good things the South can be proud about, but culturally we haven't actually taken the time to process the bad things that are closely tied to the good things. It doesn't help that our cultural tendency is to sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine. Why celebrate the founding of America if America was built on oppression? You absolutely have to explain that for everybody because that's a pretty overreaching narrative and incredibly dismissive of the nation's accomplishments. Maybe in the 1950s the tendency was to "sweep these sorts of problems under the rug and pretend everything is fine," but nowadays we can see the black marks with the rest but a certain section was to overemphasize them to the exclusion of all the good. " I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." - Kaepernick.
That issue has persisted well beyond the 1950s. Most of your posts in this thread are a shining example of that. Racism and injustice is something your grandparents and parents dealt with so you don’t have to.
And frankly, you really need to stop abusing my and other’s more nuanced understanding of US history. I’m sorry it offends you, but you should take the time to understand US history. It is getting borderline offensive that you fill the thread with this whining every time someone tries to discussion the history of racism. You devolve the discussion into your own personal outrage theater.
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EPT
