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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8989

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
October 13 2017 17:04 GMT
#179761
His poor base won't care until he actually ends the subsidies to individuals, which even he probably isn't dumb enough to do.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 13 2017 17:12 GMT
#179762
Just tuned in to the very end of Trump's Iran shpeal. Did he say he's actually doing something?
mortyFromRickAndMort
Profile Blog Joined September 2017
85 Posts
October 13 2017 17:20 GMT
#179763
On October 14 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 01:22 Nevuk wrote:
On October 14 2017 01:20 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump's hardcore base will see his subsidy cut as a good thing I think. Because these people are more concerned with virtue signaling than actually making positive change, they see Trump sticking it to healthcare as a disrespect to Obama. They will say if the ACA weren't such a mess, these subsidies wouldn't hurt Americans. Trump is doing the right thing by getting rid of costly subsidies, since they are Obama spending. The negative effects of the subsidies being removed only exist because of Obama.

I actually doubt this. People virtue signal etc. Right up until it hits their wallets. His rich supporters won't care, but much of his base is poorer.


Consider how many of these sub-par rural folks blame big government for their low wages and inability to support a family.


Consider how many of these sub-par rural folks are against the estate tax.
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32761 Posts
October 13 2017 17:21 GMT
#179764


Sure no one worships government, but you also have a duty to remain secular.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 13 2017 17:24 GMT
#179765
The US is a country where you can buy out of the shittiness of government with sufficient money, e.g. some of the best healthcare in the world is available to moneyed individuals. I assume those will weather the storm of a shit healthcare system.

Obamacare is a stopgap. It is not a sustainable long term solution. It will die eventually, but unfortunately the folk in power can only make worse. But it helps the most vulnerable individuals at the cost of everyone else and that can't last forever.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12185 Posts
October 13 2017 17:33 GMT
#179766
On October 14 2017 02:24 LegalLord wrote:
The US is a country where you can buy out of the shittiness of government with sufficient money, e.g. some of the best healthcare in the world is available to moneyed individuals. I assume those will weather the storm of a shit healthcare system.

Obamacare is a stopgap. It is not a sustainable long term solution. It will die eventually, but unfortunately the folk in power can only make worse. But it helps the most vulnerable individuals at the cost of everyone else and that can't last forever.


Isn't that the basic idea behind a centralised healthcare system? The masses pay for the high costs of the individual. It is a lottery since most people lose money on it but you don't know the result until the drawing at end of life.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 13 2017 17:36 GMT
#179767
That is the basic concept of insurance. The system prior to the ACA was just as broken and would be super broken if it was in place today.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12185 Posts
October 13 2017 17:37 GMT
#179768
On October 14 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
That is the basic concept of insurance. The system prior to the ACA was just as broken and would be super broken if it was in place today.


Insurance is to add another layer on the system. Overall pretty much the same, agreed.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 13 2017 17:47 GMT
#179769
On October 14 2017 02:33 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 02:24 LegalLord wrote:
The US is a country where you can buy out of the shittiness of government with sufficient money, e.g. some of the best healthcare in the world is available to moneyed individuals. I assume those will weather the storm of a shit healthcare system.

Obamacare is a stopgap. It is not a sustainable long term solution. It will die eventually, but unfortunately the folk in power can only make worse. But it helps the most vulnerable individuals at the cost of everyone else and that can't last forever.


Isn't that the basic idea behind a centralised healthcare system? The masses pay for the high costs of the individual. It is a lottery since most people lose money on it but you don't know the result until the drawing at end of life.

Ideally it would systematically reduce overall costs rather than work like insurance. The US fails to do this; countries with saner healthcare do not.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 13 2017 17:49 GMT
#179770
On October 14 2017 02:33 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 02:24 LegalLord wrote:
The US is a country where you can buy out of the shittiness of government with sufficient money, e.g. some of the best healthcare in the world is available to moneyed individuals. I assume those will weather the storm of a shit healthcare system.

Obamacare is a stopgap. It is not a sustainable long term solution. It will die eventually, but unfortunately the folk in power can only make worse. But it helps the most vulnerable individuals at the cost of everyone else and that can't last forever.


Isn't that the basic idea behind a centralised healthcare system? The masses pay for the high costs of the individual. It is a lottery since most people lose money on it but you don't know the result until the drawing at end of life.


There's also the fact that centralizing cuts an insane amount of costs, though. 100 companies each paying to do the same thing is as a whole a lot more expensive than having 1 giant company. Centralized databases, centralized billing, centralized everything makes a big difference. There's also the bargaining perspective. The US government has significantly more bargaining power than this and that insurance company.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-13 17:55:40
October 13 2017 17:50 GMT
#179771
Single payer is a long way off and won't work if states continue to fuck with the system in an effort to destroy what they see as goverment healthcare.

Edit: Trump said we get to say "Marry Christmas" this year. Because I was waiting for the government's approval on what to say.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
October 13 2017 17:59 GMT
#179772
On October 14 2017 02:50 Plansix wrote:
Single payer is a long way off and won't work if states continue to fuck with the system in an effort to destroy what they see as goverment healthcare.

Edit: Trump said we get to say "Marry Christmas" this year. Because I was waiting for the government's approval on what to say.

Add the War on Christmas to the list of recent American defeats.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 13 2017 18:03 GMT
#179773
The whole war on Christmas thing is brain dead, but people getting whiny about someone saying Merry Christmas is also brain dead. Perhaps even more brain dead. You have to be mind bogglingly shitty to correct someone to say "actually, I don't celebrate christmas"
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
October 13 2017 18:04 GMT
#179774
On October 14 2017 03:03 Mohdoo wrote:
The whole war on Christmas thing is brain dead, but people getting whiny about someone saying Merry Christmas is also brain dead. Perhaps even more brain dead. You have to be mind bogglingly shitty to correct someone to say "actually, I don't celebrate christmas"


The war on christmas isnt that people care that you say merry christmas... It is that some people who say merry christmas lose their mind over someone saying happy holidays
Something witty
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28923 Posts
October 13 2017 18:10 GMT
#179775
On October 14 2017 03:04 IyMoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 03:03 Mohdoo wrote:
The whole war on Christmas thing is brain dead, but people getting whiny about someone saying Merry Christmas is also brain dead. Perhaps even more brain dead. You have to be mind bogglingly shitty to correct someone to say "actually, I don't celebrate christmas"


The war on christmas isnt that people care that you say merry christmas... It is that some people who say merry christmas lose their mind over someone saying happy holidays


Yeah. Nobody cares about someone saying merry christmas, it's just that some people prefer to say happy holidays, and that makes some people pissed off. I'd like to think that this is a reverse leftist strawman (that there aren't actually anyone who gets pissed off about people saying happy holidays), but sadly I think that is not the case.
Moderator
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 13 2017 18:10 GMT
#179776
This article is fascinating:

What Facebook Did to American Democracy

Its a bit long, but some highlights:

In late 2014, The Daily Dot called attention to an obscure Facebook-produced case study on how strategists defeated a statewide measure in Florida by relentlessly focusing Facebook ads on Broward and Dade counties, Democratic strongholds. Working with a tiny budget that would have allowed them to send a single mailer to just 150,000 households, the digital-advertising firm Chong and Koster was able to obtain remarkable results. “Where the Facebook ads appeared, we did almost 20 percentage points better than where they didn’t,” testified a leader of the firm. “Within that area, the people who saw the ads were 17 percent more likely to vote our way than the people who didn’t. Within that group, the people who voted the way we wanted them to, when asked why, often cited the messages they learned from the Facebook ads.”


Media begins to realize that Facebook can both lift them up and destroy them. And that Facebook likely wouldn't do it in purpose.

At The Atlantic, we ran a series of experiments that showed, pretty definitively from our perspective, that most of the stuff that looked like “dark social” was, in fact, traffic coming from within Facebook’s mobile app. Across the landscape, it began to dawn on people who thought about these kinds of things: Damn, Facebook owns us. They had taken over media distribution.

Why? This is a best guess, proffered by Robinson Meyer as it was happening: Facebook wanted to crush Twitter, which had drawn a disproportionate share of media and media-figure attention. Just as Instagram borrowed Snapchat’s “Stories” to help crush the site’s growth, Facebook decided it needed to own “news” to take the wind out of the newly IPO’d Twitter.


Of course, Breitbart.

Through this messy, chaotic, dynamic situation, a new media rose up through the Facebook burst to occupy the big filter bubbles. On the right, Breitbart is the center of a new conservative network. A study of 1.25 million election news articles found “a right-wing media network anchored around Breitbart developed as a distinct and insulated media system, using social media as a backbone to transmit a hyper-partisan perspective to the world.”

Breitbart, of course, also lent Steve Bannon, its chief, to the Trump campaign, creating another feedback loop between the candidate and a rabid partisan press. Through 2015, Breitbart went from a medium-sized site with a small Facebook page of 100,000 likes into a powerful force shaping the election with almost 1.5 million likes. In the key metric for Facebook’s News Feed, its posts got 886,000 interactions from Facebook users in January. By July, Breitbart had surpassed The New York Times’ main account in interactions. By December, it was doing 10 million interactions per month, about 50 percent of Fox News, which had 11.5 million likes on its main page. Breitbart’s audience was hyper-engaged.


And of course Russia:

As more details about the Russian disinformation campaign come to the surface through Facebook’s continued digging, it’s fair to say that it’s not just the state that did not switch on its self-defense mechanisms. The influence campaign just happened on Facebook without anyone noticing.

As many people have noted, the 3,000 ads that have been linked to Russia are a drop in the bucket, even if they did reach millions of people. The real game is simply that Russian operatives created pages that reached people “organically,” as the saying goes. Jonathan Albright, research director of the Tow Center for Digital Journalism at Columbia University, pulled data on the six publicly known Russia-linked Facebook pages. He found that their posts had been shared 340 million times. And those were six of 470 pages that Facebook has linked to Russian operatives. You’re probably talking billions of shares, with who knows how many views, and with what kind of specific targeting.


They built big brother and used it to make money. They basically sell control of people's news feeds to the highest bidder.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 13 2017 18:12 GMT
#179777
On October 14 2017 03:04 IyMoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 03:03 Mohdoo wrote:
The whole war on Christmas thing is brain dead, but people getting whiny about someone saying Merry Christmas is also brain dead. Perhaps even more brain dead. You have to be mind bogglingly shitty to correct someone to say "actually, I don't celebrate christmas"


The war on christmas isnt that people care that you say merry christmas... It is that some people who say merry christmas lose their mind over someone saying happy holidays


It might be my overexposure to far left bullshit as a result of living in Portland, but my understanding is that there is some group of people who see businesses or whatever having a blanket statement of "merry christmas" as imposing Christian ideals or culture on people who do not subscribe to those beliefs.

However, the right then takes this and says "We, as a group of millions need to unite against this like 5000 people". It's just another example of the entire right uniting against some small group of people being offended. But this group of people getting offended by "Merry Christmas" really does exist. It is basically the same group of people wildly insecure with their heritage. Far left groups of minorities get so insecure that any little detail that reminds them they are a minority is met with extreme resentment and revolt.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44439 Posts
October 13 2017 18:13 GMT
#179778
One side wishes to entrench religious Christian social norms as American social norms while the other wants to recognize that while we all share a society that celebrates secular traditions rooted in Christianity, Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, nor the default religion of all true Americans.

The debate is over the secularization of culture.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
October 13 2017 18:14 GMT
#179779
On October 14 2017 03:03 Mohdoo wrote:
The whole war on Christmas thing is brain dead, but people getting whiny about someone saying Merry Christmas is also brain dead. Perhaps even more brain dead. You have to be mind bogglingly shitty to correct someone to say "actually, I don't celebrate christmas"


Literally never had that happen to me. I have however, had a fair amount of people being pissy when using happy holidays.
Never Knows Best.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-13 18:19:38
October 13 2017 18:18 GMT
#179780
On October 14 2017 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2017 03:04 IyMoon wrote:
On October 14 2017 03:03 Mohdoo wrote:
The whole war on Christmas thing is brain dead, but people getting whiny about someone saying Merry Christmas is also brain dead. Perhaps even more brain dead. You have to be mind bogglingly shitty to correct someone to say "actually, I don't celebrate christmas"


The war on christmas isnt that people care that you say merry christmas... It is that some people who say merry christmas lose their mind over someone saying happy holidays


It might be my overexposure to far left bullshit as a result of living in Portland, but my understanding is that there is some group of people who see businesses or whatever having a blanket statement of "merry christmas" as imposing Christian ideals or culture on people who do not subscribe to those beliefs.

However, the right then takes this and says "We, as a group of millions need to unite against this like 5000 people". It's just another example of the entire right uniting against some small group of people being offended. But this group of people getting offended by "Merry Christmas" really does exist. It is basically the same group of people wildly insecure with their heritage. Far left groups of minorities get so insecure that any little detail that reminds them they are a minority is met with extreme resentment and revolt.


This war on christmas thing dates back to the 1990s. People said that “saying happy holidays was a nice way to wish someone a merry Xmas if you’re sure they celebrate Xmas.” It was nice. It was thoughtful.

But some people didn’t want to be thought of as being “not thoughtful” if they said merry Christmas. They felt it was bad that companies and people had imposed this burden on them. They were just saying “merry Christmas,” that didn’t make them bad! They felt abused and bad because they were good people and didn’t want the burden of having to think about changing their ways. No one told them they were bad, they told themselves people would think they are bad. They just want to say Merry Christmas and they don't want anyone to say "I don't celebrate Christmas," because those people should just be happy.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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