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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1987 Posts
October 09 2017 21:00 GMT
#179121
On October 10 2017 05:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2017 05:01 Danglars wrote:
On October 10 2017 03:37 Nevuk wrote:

LA city council voted to rename it. Proves they can view the totality of indigenous peoples despite cannibalism, human sacrifice, slavery, and mutilation, but won’t extend the same treatment to Columbus. Thankfully, polling shows (Marist) that Americans aren’t as swayed as certain leadership councils.

Happy Columbus Day, everyone.


This doesn't just sound bigoted, it sounds remarkably stupid.

What the hell are you even celebrating?


The victor is writing the story, adding and omitting to fit his own agenda. Concuerors and separatists are celebrated as heroes alike, if they won in the end.

We do need our identity myths, though, and we search everywhere to find them!
Buff the siegetank
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
October 09 2017 21:28 GMT
#179122
On October 10 2017 05:01 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2017 03:37 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/917430691092226048

LA city council voted to rename it. Proves they can view the totality of indigenous peoples despite cannibalism, human sacrifice, slavery, and mutilation, but won’t extend the same treatment to Columbus. Thankfully, polling shows (Marist) that Americans aren’t as swayed as certain leadership councils.

Happy Columbus Day, everyone.

I know you like to ruffle liberals' feathers so I'm sure this post is meant to be ironic or something, but do you really think

a) considering an entire (set of) civilization(s) to be worth celebrating despite some bad social beliefs and practices of some of their populations during their centuries of existence, and

b) considering a man to be worth celebrating despite some racist and genocidal beliefs and practice during his lifetime

are analogous? To me, that logic would suggest that celebrating the German people is only acceptable if it's also acceptable to celebrate Hitler, which I'm sure you don't believe. But if not, I'm curious how you draw the distinction.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 09 2017 21:46 GMT
#179123
On October 10 2017 05:49 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2017 05:01 Danglars wrote:
On October 10 2017 03:37 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/917430691092226048

LA city council voted to rename it. Proves they can view the totality of indigenous peoples despite cannibalism, human sacrifice, slavery, and mutilation, but won’t extend the same treatment to Columbus. Thankfully, polling shows (Marist) that Americans aren’t as swayed as certain leadership councils.

Happy Columbus Day, everyone.


They're not calling it Aztec day or whatever? If it was 'discovery of america day' maybe you'd have a point, but seeing how Columbus actually was, having 'Columbus day' is kinda like Germany having a 'Hitler day', just with Hitler happening 500 years ago, the jews becoming virtually extinct and entirely devoid of worldly influence, and people somehow being totally fine with it until this point in time. If that was the case, I'd be in the 'hey, maybe jewish remembrance day is more appropriate than celebrating the guy who started the genocide' camp.

Columbus Day is for celebrating his discovery, and nowadays Italian Americans in general. Not that he replaced one violent slavery-practicing people with another bloodthirsty slave-owning people. Although the former gets something akin to sainthood and the latter is compared to Hitler. Simply lovely.

It’s just a holiday, but there’s agitators in my area making efforts to replace it for no good reason. Leave it be and celebrate indigenous peoples on another day. There’s way the hell too much 100% black soul revisionism on the man going on.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 09 2017 21:48 GMT
#179124
On October 10 2017 06:28 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2017 05:01 Danglars wrote:
On October 10 2017 03:37 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/917430691092226048

LA city council voted to rename it. Proves they can view the totality of indigenous peoples despite cannibalism, human sacrifice, slavery, and mutilation, but won’t extend the same treatment to Columbus. Thankfully, polling shows (Marist) that Americans aren’t as swayed as certain leadership councils.

Happy Columbus Day, everyone.

I know you like to ruffle liberals' feathers so I'm sure this post is meant to be ironic or something, but do you really think

a) considering an entire (set of) civilization(s) to be worth celebrating despite some bad social beliefs and practices of some of their populations during their centuries of existence, and

b) considering a man to be worth celebrating despite some racist and genocidal beliefs and practice during his lifetime

are analogous? To me, that logic would suggest that celebrating the German people is only acceptable if it's also acceptable to celebrate Hitler, which I'm sure you don't believe. But if not, I'm curious how you draw the distinction.

Replacing one with another expresses a preference, as does the rhetoric on this religious crusade. (a) and (b) entirely miss the point.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 09 2017 21:52 GMT
#179125
Columbus did good work. He deserves to be commemorated.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
October 09 2017 21:54 GMT
#179126
This history revisionism got to stop. It's detrimental to the society as a whole.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-09 21:57:12
October 09 2017 21:56 GMT
#179127
He is celebrated all over the world, across different nations. But apparently a couple cities in the US not celebrating him is this terrible offence.

And I totally agree, historical revisionism needs to stop. That is why they should teach Christopher Columbus correctly in schools, rather the myth about the moth and the peach
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-09 22:00:44
October 09 2017 21:59 GMT
#179128

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Republican Rep. Marsha Blackburn’s Senate campaign announcement ad has been blocked by Twitter over a statement the abortion rights opponent makes about the sale of fetal tissue for medical research.

Blackburn, who is running for the seat being opened by the retirement of Tennessee Sen. Bob Corker, boasts in the ad that she “stopped the sale of baby body parts.” A Twitter representative told the candidate’s vendors on Monday that the statement was “deemed an inflammatory statement that is likely to evoke a strong negative reaction:

Twitter said the Blackburn campaign would be allowed to run the rest of the video if the flagged statement is omitted. While the decision keeps Blackburn from paying to promote the video on Twitter, it doesn’t keep it from being linked from YouTube and other platforms.

Blackburn took to Twitter to urge supporters to re-post her video and join her in “standing up to Silicon Valley.”

Blackburn was the chair of a Republican-run House panel created to investigate Planned Parenthood and the world of fetal tissue research that earlier this year urged Congress to halt federal payments to the women’s health organization. Democrats said the GOP probe had unearthed no wrongdoing and wasted taxpayers’ money in an abusive investigation.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2017 22:02 GMT
#179129
Twitter finally grows a spin and decides they control their platform that elected officials use for free. Better late than never I guess.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium5194 Posts
October 09 2017 22:03 GMT
#179130
But history isn't an unnuanced story.. So revisionism, or rather appealing to different perspectives which can be equally correct, isn't that much of an issue imo.
Taxes are for Terrans
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-09 22:04:12
October 09 2017 22:03 GMT
#179131
On October 10 2017 06:54 RealityIsKing wrote:
This history revisionism got to stop. It's detrimental to the society as a whole.

are you aware the revisionism is mostly by the people favoring/pushing columbus day, rather than the opponents of it?
and that a lot of revisionism is pushed by conservatives, probably moreso than liberals?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9950 Posts
October 09 2017 22:05 GMT
#179132
On October 10 2017 06:54 RealityIsKing wrote:
This history revisionism got to stop. It's detrimental to the society as a whole.


Creating myths doesn't work in an era where we have found reliable historical sources that explain the facts behind the story.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2017 22:06 GMT
#179133
On October 10 2017 07:03 Uldridge wrote:
But history isn't an unnuanced story.. So revisionism, or rather appealing to different perspectives which can be equally correct, isn't that much of an issue imo.

Whoa there, don't trouble people with the concept that there are several interpretations of historical events. Don't travel to the dark world were everyone realizes we know nothing about history and its all hearsay. Like that we don't really know if the War of the Roses should be called a war at all. People like their nice, linear history that has points they are required to care about and nothing changes because its the past.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-09 22:13:24
October 09 2017 22:09 GMT
#179134
columbus was a heinous and incompetent shitbag while he was governor of the west indies, even by the standards of his time. sure he managed to sail over to america (which he didn't know he was america, even), but that's a pretty tiny piece of his biography.

i'm fine with celebrating, commemorating, acknowledging, memorializing the event which was an important milestone milestone in human history, but there's a lot of baggage there we as a society don't like to talk about.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11583 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-09 22:13:05
October 09 2017 22:10 GMT
#179135
Well, much less the person, but it is a significant event in history- the meeting of two worlds. I joked before about Viking Day, but while they arrived earlier, it's not as significant as it never turned into much. The Viking colony quickly faded and there was no follow up. Columbus is a landmark as an event because there was a permanent change from very little interaction between the continents to an interconnectedness that has yet to cease.

We could rename it a few things so it commemorates the event rather than a deeply flawed person, but I don't think Indigenous Day captures the significance of the change. We could have an Indigenous Day as well, but it's a different idea. I think to celebrate a collection of ethnicities vs events that landmark a change... is somewhat similar in the same way there was rumblings over Canada's 150th celebration. True, there were people in these lands for thousands of years prior to 1867. Nonetheless, July 1, 1867 acknowledges that something occurred that had not occurred before- a polity appeared that didn't exist before. We can celebrate static history- the people, the ethnic groups. But I also think it's worth acknowledging dynamic history- unique events that shaped and changed what came after.
Moderator5000 of our finest Taliban warriors have been released! Rise up my brothers. Mashalla! al-Donald ibn-Frederick al-Masih allows it.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 09 2017 22:16 GMT
#179136
On October 10 2017 07:10 Falling wrote:
Well, much less the person, but it is a significant event in history- the meeting of two worlds. I joked before about Viking Day, but while they arrived earlier, it's not as significant as it never turned into much. The Viking colony quickly faded and there was no follow up. Columbus is a landmark as an event because there was a permanent change from very little interaction between the continents to an interconnectedness that has yet to cease.

We could rename it a few things so it commemorates the event rather than a deeply flawed person, but I don't think Indigenous Day captures the significance of the change. We could have an Indigenous Day as well, but it's a different idea. I think to celebrate a collection of ethnicities vs events that landmark a change... is somewhat similar in the same way there was rumblings over Canada's 150th celebration. True, there were people in these lands for thousands of years prior to 1867. Nonetheless, July 1, 1867 acknowledges that something occurred that had not occurred before- a polity appeared that didn't exist before. We can celebrate static history- the people, the ethnic groups. But I also think it's worth acknowledging dynamic history- unique events that shaped and changed what came after.

Honestly, this view is massively underrepresented and demonized today.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9950 Posts
October 09 2017 22:18 GMT
#179137
On October 10 2017 07:10 Falling wrote:
Well, much less the person, but it is a significant event in history- the meeting of two worlds. I joked before about Viking Day, but while they arrived earlier, it's not as significant as it never turned into much. The Viking colony quickly faded and there was no follow up. Columbus is a landmark as an event because there was a permanent change from very little interaction between the continents to an interconnectedness that has yet to cease.

We could rename it a few things so it commemorates the event rather than a deeply flawed person, but I don't think Indigenous Day captures the significance of the change. We could have an Indigenous Day as well, but it's a different idea. I think to celebrate a collection of ethnicities vs events that landmark a change... is somewhat similar in the same way there was rumblings over Canada's 150th celebration. True, there were people in these lands for thousands of years prior to 1867. Nonetheless, July 1, 1867 acknowledges that something occurred that had not occurred before- a polity appeared that didn't exist before. We can celebrate static history- the people, the ethnic groups. But I also think it's worth acknowledging dynamic history- unique events that shaped and changed what came after.


You could rename it something like Discovery Day but the opposition would start going on about invasion day or something. It seems like an odd battleground for these ideas, but apparently celebrating anything about Western culture in 2017 is celebrating white supremacy.
RIP Meatloaf <3
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
October 09 2017 22:32 GMT
#179138
On October 10 2017 07:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
columbus was a heinous and incompetent shitbag while he was governor of the west indies, even by the standards of his time. sure he managed to sail over to america (which he didn't know he was america, even), but that's a pretty tiny piece of his biography.

i'm fine with celebrating, commemorating, acknowledging, memorializing the event which was an important milestone milestone in human history, but there's a lot of baggage there we as a society don't like to talk about.

If the society dosent like talking about it, don't force it down their throats.

It creates fissure within the fabric of our community.

Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35173 Posts
October 09 2017 22:33 GMT
#179139
On October 10 2017 06:54 RealityIsKing wrote:
This history revisionism got to stop. It's detrimental to the society as a whole.

I agree. Your right. He wasn't the first to discover the Americas. He wasn't even the first European.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
October 09 2017 22:34 GMT
#179140
On October 10 2017 07:32 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2017 07:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
columbus was a heinous and incompetent shitbag while he was governor of the west indies, even by the standards of his time. sure he managed to sail over to america (which he didn't know he was america, even), but that's a pretty tiny piece of his biography.

i'm fine with celebrating, commemorating, acknowledging, memorializing the event which was an important milestone milestone in human history, but there's a lot of baggage there we as a society don't like to talk about.

If the society dosent like talking about it, don't force it down their throats.

It creates fissure within the fabric of our community.



This seems like a great place to call people snowflakes.

History is rough, putting your head in the sand and going "EVERYTHING IS FINE" is not a great way to live
Something witty
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