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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Howie_Dewitt
Profile Joined March 2014
United States1416 Posts
September 16 2017 23:00 GMT
#175061
I want to know how people who opposed it before react now
Sisyphus had a good gig going, the disappointment was predictable. | Visions of the Country (1978) is for when you're lost.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
September 16 2017 23:06 GMT
#175062
On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))

Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that.


Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead.

Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding.

It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here.

The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true.

You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there.

I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted.

The bad faith is all you Danglars.

Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry.

On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you:
Show nested quote +
When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

I elaborated because you said:
Show nested quote +
you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope

I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it.

Show nested quote +
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society

Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears.

Apology accepted.

When you write "It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever.", it's a reference and context I don't understand. Where do I even start? It's just a bizarre nonsensical statement to make of me. To me you are arguing not with me but at somebody else, or its a cultural reference to godknowswhat.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 16 2017 23:13 GMT
#175063
If he really does forget the idea of scrapping Paris then he'll be 3 for 3 on TPP, TTIP, and Paris. Great work Trump.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
September 16 2017 23:14 GMT
#175064
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15714 Posts
September 16 2017 23:24 GMT
#175065
Compare 3 months before Kelly to today. He has turned this thing around hugely.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
September 17 2017 00:40 GMT
#175066
It seems like the latest news of the hour is that the White House is denying the previous announcement that the USA won't back out of the Paris Accord. It's very frustrating to try to follow the news when the exact opposite facts come out on the same day.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
September 17 2017 00:54 GMT
#175067
On September 17 2017 09:40 micronesia wrote:
It seems like the latest news of the hour is that the White House is denying the previous announcement that the USA won't back out of the Paris Accord. It's very frustrating to try to follow the news when the exact opposite facts come out on the same day.


Hey, that's more time than it took them to deny Trump made a deal with Schumer and Pelosi.
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3393 Posts
September 17 2017 02:46 GMT
#175068
dafuq
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-17 03:01:09
September 17 2017 03:00 GMT
#175069
Finished Hillary's book. Will write something up when I'm on a proper computer. My short summary is that the Twitter quote mines are a good taste of the general crap peddled throughout the book.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
September 17 2017 03:26 GMT
#175070
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 17 2017 03:51 GMT
#175071


BTW the juggalo march happened. They're upset the FBI labeled them a gang in 2011.




Mother of all rallies was a pro trump rally that was trying to attract millions and got like, a couple hundred.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35159 Posts
September 17 2017 04:22 GMT
#175072
On September 17 2017 08:00 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
I want to know how people who opposed it before react now

I saw this one funny video where a Trumpet said "We trusted you." and then tried to burn his MAGA hat, but he was doing it with a kitchen torch and was having a hell of a time getting the hat to burn.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5672 Posts
September 17 2017 04:44 GMT
#175073
On September 17 2017 12:26 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/908782637300543500

Those are campaign donations, legacy media competence is dead.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 17 2017 05:04 GMT
#175074
On September 17 2017 13:44 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 12:26 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/908782637300543500

Those are campaign donations, legacy media competence is dead.

So he has a website up that looks like a donation fund for building a wall, but in fact the money just goes to his reelection fund (which he's already collecting for in his first year in office).

Does that seem better to you?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
September 17 2017 05:05 GMT
#175075
On September 07 2017 08:48 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2017 08:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 07 2017 08:18 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Post-IRMA prediction:

As a part of the bipartisan tax reform package, Chuck Schumer convinces DJT to accept the inclusion of a carbon tax to push back against the climate change driving city crushing hurricanes onto our shores.

Followed by all the sensible climate alarmists reminding everybody that one or two weather events do not prove or disprove climate change. And you're all rubes for thinking that really cold winter means global warming is over.


If IRMA flattens Mar-a-Lago, yes, Schumer will be able to sell DJT on acting on Climate Change.

EDIT: don't underestimate how easily DJT can swing on something based on his current feelings. Seeing Houston under water affected him (check out his speech in Dakota earlier today). If IRMA smashes a city or two in Florida, DJT could come around suddenly.


And we already have the beginning of DJT coming around on climate change. Trump will stay in the Paris accords after all (it had self defined voluntary compliance anyways, so this was not that big of a deal). THis is how carbon tax trump gets started.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 17 2017 05:07 GMT
#175076
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 17 2017 05:30 GMT
#175077
On September 17 2017 07:28 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))

Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that.


Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead.

Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding.

It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here.

The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true.

You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there.

I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted.

The bad faith is all you Danglars.

Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry.

On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you:
Show nested quote +
When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

I elaborated because you said:
Show nested quote +
you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope

I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it.

Show nested quote +
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society

Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears.


so how is a statue protest "ignoring their flaws?"
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 17 2017 05:36 GMT
#175078
It's weird how people that supposedly want to "erase history" are so eager to talk about the history. Like, if you want to erase their history, why spend so much time talking about what they did in their lives?

Put it another way: if we're erasing the history, why do we need to get rid of the statues? Minus the history, what was once a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest is now just a nice statue of a guy on a horse. The history is the only reason anybody would be offended by the statue.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
September 17 2017 06:20 GMT
#175079
On September 17 2017 12:26 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/908782637300543500

Maybe he's calling his supporters Mexico now.
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
September 17 2017 07:03 GMT
#175080
On September 17 2017 04:51 ticklishmusic wrote:
in other news, has anyone been following what's been going on in cuba? it's weird as shit.

Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON (AP) — There must be an answer.

Whatever is harming U.S. diplomats in Havana, it’s eluded the doctors, scientists and intelligence analysts scouring for answers. Investigators have chased many theories, including a sonic attack, electromagnetic weapon or flawed spying device.

Each explanation seems to fit parts of what’s happened, conflicting with others.

The United States doesn’t even know what to call it. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson used the phrase “health attacks.” The State Department prefers “incidents.”

Either way, suspicion has fallen on Cuba. But investigators also are examining whether a rogue faction of its security services, another country such as Russia, or some combination is to blame, more than a dozen U.S. officials familiar with the investigation told The Associated Press.

Those officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to publicly discuss the investigation. The AP also talked to scientists, physicians, acoustics and weapons experts, and others about the theories being pursued.

Perhaps the biggest mystery is why the symptoms, sounds and sensations vary so dramatically from person to person.

Of the 21 medically confirmed U.S. victims, some have permanent hearing loss or concussions, while others suffered nausea, headaches and ear-ringing. Some are struggling with concentration or common word recall, the AP has reported. Some felt vibrations or heard loud sounds mysteriously audible in only parts of rooms , and others heard nothing.

“These are very nonspecific symptoms. That’s why it’s difficult to tell what’s going on,” said Dr. H. Jeffrey Kim, a specialist on ear disorders at MedStar Georgetown University Hospital who isn’t involved with the investigation.

To solve the puzzle, investigators are sorting symptoms into categories, such as auditory and neurological, according to individuals briefed on the probe.

There can be a lag before victims discover or report symptoms, some of which are hard to diagnose. So investigators are charting the timeline of reported incidents to identify “clusters” to help solve the when, where and how of the Havana whodunit.

While Cuba has been surprisingly cooperative , even inviting the FBI to fly down to Havana, it’s not the same as an investigation with the U.S. government in full control.

“You’re on foreign soil,” said David Rubincam, a former FBI agent who served in Moscow. “The quality of the information and evidence you collect is limited to what the host government will allow you to see and hear and touch and do.”

Especially when you don’t even know what you’re looking for.


source


I wouldn't doubt its North Korea, their embassy is not to far away.
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