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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8753

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42649 Posts
September 16 2017 18:51 GMT
#175041
#thosewhoprotestthestatusquomustdie
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 16 2017 19:48 GMT
#175042
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

Show nested quote +
On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-16 19:53:37
September 16 2017 19:48 GMT
#175043
Reminder that being called racist is still more upsetting than actually being racist for too many people.

"Man displays ‘Slaves 4 Sale’ sign above Confederate flag in response to being called racist"


On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.



Imagining that the majority of the movement was wanting to tear down founding fathers statues rather than contextualize them (something I haven't seen) what's next after the founding fathers on this slippery slope?

Also how would you characterize the problem of racism in the US again? As in how severe of a problem do you see it as?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 16 2017 19:51 GMT
#175044
in other news, has anyone been following what's been going on in cuba? it's weird as shit.

WASHINGTON (AP) — There must be an answer.

Whatever is harming U.S. diplomats in Havana, it’s eluded the doctors, scientists and intelligence analysts scouring for answers. Investigators have chased many theories, including a sonic attack, electromagnetic weapon or flawed spying device.

Each explanation seems to fit parts of what’s happened, conflicting with others.

The United States doesn’t even know what to call it. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson used the phrase “health attacks.” The State Department prefers “incidents.”

Either way, suspicion has fallen on Cuba. But investigators also are examining whether a rogue faction of its security services, another country such as Russia, or some combination is to blame, more than a dozen U.S. officials familiar with the investigation told The Associated Press.

Those officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to publicly discuss the investigation. The AP also talked to scientists, physicians, acoustics and weapons experts, and others about the theories being pursued.

Perhaps the biggest mystery is why the symptoms, sounds and sensations vary so dramatically from person to person.

Of the 21 medically confirmed U.S. victims, some have permanent hearing loss or concussions, while others suffered nausea, headaches and ear-ringing. Some are struggling with concentration or common word recall, the AP has reported. Some felt vibrations or heard loud sounds mysteriously audible in only parts of rooms , and others heard nothing.

“These are very nonspecific symptoms. That’s why it’s difficult to tell what’s going on,” said Dr. H. Jeffrey Kim, a specialist on ear disorders at MedStar Georgetown University Hospital who isn’t involved with the investigation.

To solve the puzzle, investigators are sorting symptoms into categories, such as auditory and neurological, according to individuals briefed on the probe.

There can be a lag before victims discover or report symptoms, some of which are hard to diagnose. So investigators are charting the timeline of reported incidents to identify “clusters” to help solve the when, where and how of the Havana whodunit.

While Cuba has been surprisingly cooperative , even inviting the FBI to fly down to Havana, it’s not the same as an investigation with the U.S. government in full control.

“You’re on foreign soil,” said David Rubincam, a former FBI agent who served in Moscow. “The quality of the information and evidence you collect is limited to what the host government will allow you to see and hear and touch and do.”

Especially when you don’t even know what you’re looking for.


source
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-16 19:52:45
September 16 2017 19:51 GMT
#175045
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 16 2017 20:03 GMT
#175046
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-16 20:36:07
September 16 2017 20:06 GMT
#175047
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))


Is it fun wholly fabricating this argument then triumphantly marching on top of it? Also, I reject this "slippery slope" altogether, worst case I've seen explained is a slippery curb.

Are we pretending Texas isn't actually trying to erase and sanitize history with 0 conservative objections? They tried to turn slaves into "immigrant workers".

Whether it's history, rights, or economics, there is a clear thread of white supremacy running through the arguments of Danglars and in others' that make arguments like his.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-16 20:48:02
September 16 2017 20:44 GMT
#175048
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))

Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that.


Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 16 2017 21:18 GMT
#175049
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
September 16 2017 21:28 GMT
#175050
I can't exactly say I'm displeased by his sudden change of heart, but it is worrying how quickly Trump can change his entire philosophy. He's like the cartoon villain who shoots his number 2 in the head because he failed him once. It's not exactly the mark of a good leader, but in this case I'll take it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
September 16 2017 21:33 GMT
#175051
On September 17 2017 06:18 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/909153934404734976


.... Seriously. probably anyone who sucks up to trump a bit can change his opinion on everything as long as they're smooth talkers.

He literally can't think for himself.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
September 16 2017 21:34 GMT
#175052
Nothing is certain though.
From the WSJ article
While Mr. Eissenstat outlined a plan to reassure partners that the U.S. would be constructive, he did not provide clarity on the new emissions-reduction objectives, the person said.

“They are seriously considering the terms on which the U.S. could re-engage,” the person said. “They have also made clear that they have no intention to renegotiate or develop a parallel track to Paris.”

That's just a whole lot of nothing.
passive quaranstream fan
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21666 Posts
September 16 2017 21:42 GMT
#175053
On September 17 2017 06:28 NewSunshine wrote:
I can't exactly say I'm displeased by his sudden change of heart, but it is worrying how quickly Trump can change his entire philosophy. He's like the cartoon villain who shoots his number 2 in the head because he failed him once. It's not exactly the mark of a good leader, but in this case I'll take it.

Because he has no conviction aside from enriching himself. He doesn't give a shit about Republican or Democrat ideal so he will side with whatever makes him 'win'.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 16 2017 21:43 GMT
#175054
On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))

Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that.


Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead.

Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding.

It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 16 2017 21:44 GMT
#175055
On September 17 2017 06:33 Lmui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:18 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/909153934404734976


.... Seriously. probably anyone who sucks up to trump a bit can change his opinion on everything as long as they're smooth talkers.

He literally can't think for himself.


Relax, man just made a better deal for USA.

Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35142 Posts
September 16 2017 21:51 GMT
#175056
On September 17 2017 06:44 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:33 Lmui wrote:
On September 17 2017 06:18 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/909153934404734976


.... Seriously. probably anyone who sucks up to trump a bit can change his opinion on everything as long as they're smooth talkers.

He literally can't think for himself.


Relax, man just made a better deal for USA.


Isn't this just the same deal he backed out of, meaning he's done nothing?
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-16 22:03:04
September 16 2017 21:59 GMT
#175057
On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))

Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that.


Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead.

Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding.

It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here.

The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true.

You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there.

I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted.

The bad faith is all you Danglars.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42649 Posts
September 16 2017 22:03 GMT
#175058
On September 17 2017 06:51 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:44 RealityIsKing wrote:
On September 17 2017 06:33 Lmui wrote:
On September 17 2017 06:18 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/909153934404734976


.... Seriously. probably anyone who sucks up to trump a bit can change his opinion on everything as long as they're smooth talkers.

He literally can't think for himself.


Relax, man just made a better deal for USA.


Isn't this just the same deal he backed out of, meaning he's done nothing?

Yes. It has not been renegotiated.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 16 2017 22:28 GMT
#175059
On September 17 2017 06:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:43 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 05:03 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On September 17 2017 04:48 Danglars wrote:
On September 17 2017 02:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Jeez, whoever the Press Secretary is doesn't know how to use a spell checker. Or proof read. Actually it's scarier to think he proofread it.

________

On September 16 2017 08:59 Danglars wrote:
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others.

Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill.

There's a certain pain involved when someone can't distinguish between what you have the right to do and what's a good idea in society.
So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society, that you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope. Ok...y'all.

Only when people slap Trump around for saying that Jefferson will follow Lee. Slippery slope, indeed. First came confederate war generals, then founding fathers.

But I'm thankful you took the time to understand (mostly) the thought conveyed.

What? Danglars explain yourself. At least within recent memory, your sentences made sense, even if people disagreeed with them.

When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

When I said you took the time to understand the thoughts, I meant what you said was pretty impressive from this thread's standards at understanding what I said. Of course, for a complete summary, you'd have to include the part about vandalizing and toppling statues in the night and the parallels with not bearing to look at a statue of one founder of this country and vandalizing Francis Scott Key. It looks like you can't bear to examine history, not that you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society or whatever. Which makes society more stupid.
On September 16 2017 13:54 Sermokala wrote:
On September 16 2017 12:30 IgnE wrote:
What would your Jefferson plaque say?

"Here is a man whose fortune was built on the backs of slaves.

He also wrote the Declaration of Independence."

"He was in a day where racism and outright white supremism was not only accepted but was the societal norm. He had slaves he bought slaves he sold slaves and he didn't free his slaves apon his death."

Judging people of the past on the standards of today is okay and all but the man has an important place in history that people need to remember and learn from. The things that were acceptable back then and the progress that we've made on issues can go hand in hand with the good things that were done.

Not celebrating anything that happened more then 20-30 years ago just seems dumb. I don't know where you can draw a decent line but the amount of important people that owned slaves vs the amount of important people who didn't own slaves and didn't do other things we'd consider horrible today doesn't really leave with many positive examples of the past for people to look to.

((Better cover it up, the man had slaves, we can't learn a damn thing from him now))

Sorry, too many cultural references and Trump references for me to understand your context. I don't even understand what you are refering to when you say " you're using it to grab attention to parallels with racism in modern society. What I got from your post is that you are not arguing with me, or have confused my post for some other poster, or just generally arguing at a perceived entity to which I am not part of. AlsoI got that you appear to genuinely beleive that marching for white supremists with guns is a good idea in society, but not the draping of statues. You got to understand I think the fetishization of your founding fathers is pretty damn wierd, you are not exactly disabusing me of that.


Also, I can bear to examine history, but world history has a rather larger breadth than a country which has only existed for a couple of centuries. I think perhaps you should broaden your understanding of history instead.

Whatever, man. Your approach is to point out a single sentence in the second paragraph, and claim the entire thing is incomprehensible. I can't help you with your reading comprehension, and there's no dearth of posts to reread if your context is shoddy. I've got several exchanges on this exact topic over the last dozen pages. There's disagreement and bad faith but understanding.

It's seriously sounds like you're moving backwards. First you figure correctly that I defend "marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society." Then you edit the exchange and drop the edited original post in the quote train (and ps that's why I quote, so if you suddenly substantially alter the meaning and issue, I can recall your original argument). If you can't separate standing for rights in society and commenting on protest movements that are ineffective or counterproductive, we're obviously done here.

The fuck is wrong with you Danglars? There is only so many times you can accuse people of editing their posts after the fact or misquoting you in a forum, where we can literally see that it isn't true.

You decided to quote me, then complain that I have changed my post. But the post you have quoted is the exact same quote that is there.

I edit my post to elaborate the argument, but not after it has already been quoted.

The bad faith is all you Danglars.

Sorry, I glanced too quickly at two separate posts in the quote train and thought the edit had substantially changed your point. Apparently I need to rest my eyes. Sorry.

On the other topic, I do feel like I explained myself well and the abundance of my posts on the subject explain my thinking very well. You cannot separate base rights and analysis of protests. It also appears you did not understand my post response to you:
When people said that other statues would come other fire in the wake of the Charlottesville protests, they were dismissed by many mainstream journalism figures as cranks. They claimed it was the slippery slope fallacy. If you read what I said, I quoted Trump on it, and he was dead right. Next Francis Scott Key is covered up. Statues in eight major cities are vandalized. These were unrelated to civil war figures, but progressed from arguments tailored to the confederate states of America. One followed the other. The search function is open to you if you need my prior posts on the subject to give you necessary context.

I elaborated because you said:
you must vehemently argue against because it is a slippery slope

I didn't point out what I thought was the original slippery slope assertion and defense, so there you have it.

So marching with guns for white supremacy is a right that you vehemently argue for as an absolute right, but draping a statue in cloth is not a good idea in society

Yes. You mostly understand me. That's the conclusion I draw from arguments I advanced in the last dozen pages. The protesters made an ineffective and counterproductive comparison to past attempts to erase history. I'd rather have complicated men examined in their entirety than to ignore their accomplishments and flaws. This is separate from rights of assembly, speech, and bearing arms. It really isn't that complicated, Dangermousecatdog. If you're ejecting with "I don't understand your references or context" then I'm fine discontinuing. It really doesn't matter to me. If you have anything substantial to add besides shock at my position and pretend disbelief, I'm all ears.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
September 16 2017 22:42 GMT
#175060
On September 17 2017 06:42 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2017 06:28 NewSunshine wrote:
I can't exactly say I'm displeased by his sudden change of heart, but it is worrying how quickly Trump can change his entire philosophy. He's like the cartoon villain who shoots his number 2 in the head because he failed him once. It's not exactly the mark of a good leader, but in this case I'll take it.

Because he has no conviction aside from enriching himself. He doesn't give a shit about Republican or Democrat ideal so he will side with whatever makes him 'win'.

There's nothing I dislike more in all the world than someone who only wants to win. We seem to have a good bit of that on our hands.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
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